Padres probably don’t even go after Manny if it wasn’t for one of the worst trades imaginable

2 minutes ago, fathom said:

Padres probably don’t even go after Manny if it wasn’t for one of the worst trades imaginable

Why did you put that in my head jerk?

4 minutes ago, Flash Tizzle said:

I just can’t get over Alonso and Jay. I thought there’s just no way a conpetent GM would ever bring them aboard unless it would just about guarantee any tiebreaker goes to the Sox. I was naive to believe they’d ever tie any offer above their cheap baseline

They literally did everything wrong: raised expectations extending back years, signed/traded for a friend and relative, then provided an incentive laden contract instead of meeting Machados reasonable demands. Hahn/KW/JR all obtained shitlord status after this. The trolling done was beautiful

I mean if the Sox went to 10 and 300 then I bet Manny would be a member of the White Sox right now.  They did not cause reasons.

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

I feel like sox biggest problem is psychological. They lack ambition.

They look at their international free agency and think "see? Micker Adolfo, Fernando Tatis, we are improving!" They are not comparing themselves against the best. They should want to be the yankees and braves or padres at intl fa.

They look at drafting and say "look! Tim anderson in bigs, rodon in bigs, we are getting better!" They should be comparing themselves to the dodgers, astros and indians at drafting.

They look at free agency and say "look we were at the table!" They should want to be david stearns good at free agency.

They aren't concerned about what others are doing because they thing their process is improving. But it ain't enough!

And they lack ambition because everyone from the top to bottom is comfortable. God knows how many people within the organization are enjoying their positions due to JR’s loyalty

Just now, Flash Tizzle said:

And they lack ambition because everyone from the top to bottom is comfortable. God knows how many people within the organization are enjoying their positions due to JR’s loyalty

It's not even that. It's nice to know you are able to fail. People who don't think they can fail are going to be super conservative. The problem is the Sox apparently don't hire people who take real risks and don't have a culture where you (apparently) can even do that.

The list is going to get longer in next few days as RH does his annual overpaying bargain basement shopping 

28 minutes ago, shipps said:

The off season that SHOULD get him fired though would be this one. This is one of the most epic failures that I have ever witnessed. Again, not because they ultimately didnt get Manny but with how they didnt get Manny. 

100% agree. When you trade for Manny's brother-in-law, sign his mediocre best friend, and fail to convert on one of the most suppressed markets in the history of the game, you are not mired in mediocrity... you ARE mediocrity.

Will the prospects be healthy. Big question. 

in his days as GM, he has also been responsible for the drafting of exactly zero all stars

12 minutes ago, almagest said:

It's not even that. It's nice to know you are able to fail. People who don't think they can fail are going to be super conservative. The problem is the Sox apparently don't hire people who take real risks and don't have a culture where you (apparently) can even do that.

I think this may be true.

13 minutes ago, almagest said:

It's not even that. It's nice to know you are able to fail. People who don't think they can fail are going to be super conservative. The problem is the Sox apparently don't hire people who take real risks and don't have a culture where you (apparently) can even do that.

That is all Jerry Reinsdorf.  Bulls are the exact same way. 

44 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

Hahn won't spend $300 million on Machado but will waste millions of dollars on some of the stiffs you listed. He is the least successful GM in the modern history of the franchise and he keeps his job. His contract runs out after the 2019 season. Hopefully 2019 will be his last year as the GM.

Not Hahn's call.  That is JR's decision.  He capped Hahn and company on the spending.  If the owner of the team says you cant spend more then $250 million, that's means you cant spend more then $250 million.  

Period, no matter what Hahn feels he should offer Machado, if the owner says no (which he did) then Hahn cant off more. 

Machado came back to the Sox and wanted them to match, JR said no, not Hahn. 

1 hour ago, Worldbreaker Palk said:

This is easy, how many current mlb players are home grown White Sox.  I honestly can't think of one off the top of my head.  Their talent evaluation has been one of if not the worst in the majors.  Their farm system ranked up with all the other teams top talent they were lucky enough to get. 

 

 

Oops should have read closer... FA

It’s actually around average, but not high impact guys (except one).

Semien, Devenski, Tatis, Eduardo Escobar, Jose Martinez, Flowers, Phegley, Frankie Montas, (well, close enough), we can get some credit for Narvaez I suppose.

Edited February 19, 20197 yr by caulfield12

7 minutes ago, Moncada said:

Not Hahn's call.  That is JR's decision.  He capped Hahn and company on the spending.  If the owner of the team says you cant spend more then $250 million, that's means you cant spend more then $250 million.  

Period, no matter what Hahn feels he should offer Machado, if the owner says no (which he did) then Hahn cant off more. 

Machado came back to the Sox and wanted them to match, JR said no, not Hahn. 

With the $20 million saved on Alonso, Jay and Castillo...we would have had enough to get it done.

Complete buffoons.   

That's a pretty poor list.

37 minutes ago, almagest said:

It's not even that. It's nice to know you are able to fail. People who don't think they can fail are going to be super conservative. The problem is the Sox apparently don't hire people who take real risks and don't have a culture where you (apparently) can even do that.

My thoughts exactly. Nice post. 

2016 alone (and this doesn't include every signing) when the Sox were "going for it":

Austin Jackson $5 million
Navarro  $4 million
Latos $3 million
Avila $2.5 million
Albers $2 million
Rollins $2 million
Turner  $1.5 million

Total:   $20 million  
And for the coup de grace, add $5 million for Shields.

Edited February 19, 20197 yr by GreenSox

4 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

2016 alone (and this doesn't include every signing) when the Sox were "going for it":

Austin Jackson $5 million
Navarro  $4 million
Latos $3 million
Avila $2.5 million
Albers $2 million
Rollins $2 million
Turner  $1.5 million

Total:   $20 million  
And for the coup de grace, add $5 million for Shields.

“The White Sox are also said to be considering including starter Erik Johnson (4.50 ERA in 98 career innings) in a potential deal along with lower level prospects. Logically, the higher quality the prospects, the larger chunk of Shields salary will be paid by the Padres in any deal. One thing the White Sox would be getting is a very durable pitcher.”

Completely had forgotten about Turner until now...

This whole day is LOL.

Edited February 19, 20197 yr by caulfield12

54 minutes ago, Moncada said:

Not Hahn's call.  That is JR's decision.  He capped Hahn and company on the spending.  If the owner of the team says you cant spend more then $250 million, that's means you cant spend more then $250 million.  

Period, no matter what Hahn feels he should offer Machado, if the owner says no (which he did) then Hahn cant off more. 

Machado came back to the Sox and wanted them to match, JR said no, not Hahn. 

And a better general manager, Preller, convinced his organization to do it, even though their salary sheet is no where near as clean as the White Sox's. So the defense for Rick Hahn is that the organization trusts him so little that the Padres stepped in and did their job. Great defense of him! "The org just doesn't trust Rick Hahn" is the defense.

1 hour ago, Worldbreaker Palk said:

I remember hearing around the time that KW was stepping up from his GM spot that there were a ton of teams inquiring about Hahn as I guess it was known he was a really good candidate as a GM.  JR stayed pat and for a while now I've believed that Hahn has been digging the organization out of the massive hole left by KW.  I'm still not ready to put this all on Hahn as evidence by KW coming out with comments showing he is still a large hand in what happens in this organization.  Thing is, KW is a FA gomer type of guy that believes it's the best way to keep a relevant team on the field.

 

I don't know how true it is/was but I recall about 5-7 years ago that the general consensus around MLB in regards to the White Sox and KW at GM is that they were one of the last couple of organizations that held to the old way of doing things and that the numbers guys weren't as prevalent in their decision making processes.  It was apparently also widely known around the MLB that their talent evaluation and development was the laughing stock of the MLB.

 

The last great thing to happen to this organization was Ozzie Guillen, love him or hate him.  That '05 offseason just reeks of Ozzies input because it flew so far in the face of how KW operated.  Then when push came to shove JR chose to stick with KW which IMO was the death knell of this organization. 

 

I'm still on board for the rest of this rebuild but if this thing peters out then I will stand behind the idea that this organization will not be relevant until after the team is sold and new owners come in that actually want to win.  My thoughts are that JR didn't care all that much, it was a business and he ran it well enough.  05 whetted his appetite for winning so in 06 they went all in as they should have.  That blew up in their face and the organization lacked the wherewithal to recover from it.  The decisions over this time period justify these thoughts imo. 

 I'm starting to think this organization is cursed.

1 minute ago, kitekrazy said:

 I'm starting to think this organization is cursed.

I’m starting to think this organization hires incompetent individuals.

3 minutes ago, fathom said:

I’m starting to think this organization hires incompetent individuals.

They are who we thought they were. 

Las fall I argued Rick Hahn was solidly the worst GM in baseball and probably the worst White Sox GM of the Reinsdorf era (including Harrelson). I wish I wasn't right. 

Just now, fathom said:

I’m starting to think this organization hires incompetent individuals.

It's been that way for a long time when it comes to player development.  You try to get the best executives/instructors from other winning organizations.  The buddy system doesn't work. 

3 hours ago, bmags said:

Nobody asked for it, but just to prove just how terrible hahn has been as GM at free agency now with our 2018-19 class. (this is somewhat edited toward players likely to be mlb signings)

I bolded anyone that was a great signing (exceeded value of contract). 

2012-13

Dewayne Wise

Jeff Keppinger

Tony Pena

Matt Lindstrom

2013-14

Jose Abreu (skeptical if it counts)

Zack Putnam

Felipe Paulino

Ronald Belisario

Scott Downs

Dylan Axelrod

Brian Omogrosso

2014-15

Junior Guerra (let go for nothing later)

Zack Duke

Adam LaRoche

David Robertson

Melky Cabrera

Brad Penny

Emilio Bonifacio

Geovany Soto

Scott Carroll

Jesse Crain

Gordon Beckham

Nicky Delmonico

Matt Albers

2015-16

Matt Purke

Alex Avila

Dioner Navarro

Jacob Turner

Matt Albers

Mat Latos

Jimmy Rollins

Austin Jackson

Chris Volstad

2016-17

Derek Holland

Cody Asche

Everth Cabrera

Geovany Soto

Gregory Infante

Anthony Swarzak

Peter Bourjas

2017-18

Matt Skole

Welington Castillo

Miguel Gonzalez

Chris Volstad

Xavier Cedeno

Jeanmar Gomez

Bruce Rondon

Hector Santiago

2018-19

James McCann

Kelvin Herrerra

Jon Jay

 

Who is excited to go discount shopping with Rick Hahn?? We have plenty of money for b/c free agents! 

This makes me queasy.  

1 hour ago, fathom said:

Padres probably don’t even go after Manny if it wasn’t for one of the worst trades imaginable

I wish I lived in the alternate universe where the Sox had Manny or Tatis.  I can't even imagine having both in the organization.  My delicate set-up-for-failure White Sox fan brain can't even comprehend those levels of competence.