Ozzie says intent doesn’t matter with Abreu beanings

[FoxForce2]

16 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Warren Spahn, saw him pitch a few times at Wrigley.

His IP and CG were highest end even in his time. And then there was his longevity - at 42 he was deep in the running for a Cy Young.

[T R U]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

We will never see another 300 game winner, Kershaw might have a chance.

Yeah, no he doesn’t. He’s about to be 34 and needs 115 wins. No chance he gets to 300. 

[poppysox]

6 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

To  go very far at all in trying to compare players from different eras isn't much more than spitballing. An interesting comparison might be that of 1963-1966 Koufax and peak Kershaw (whom Koufax worked with and at least somewhat mentored.) Koufax only had two pitches, granted they were immaculate pitches, but still only two which wouldn't cut it in today's game. But if you were to put SK into a hot tub time machine in 1958 and tub-port him into the year 2010, develop a 3rd and 4th pitch, get him all the advantages of modern medicine and training, 5th day starts etc.  and you'd likely have something like peak Kershaw -with a hotter 4-seam and deeper curve...
and that with a superior talent in big game/high pressure situations. On a point like this I like to point out Ty Cobbs gapped bat grip - LOL!
And what am I doing going OT on this thread anyway?

"You've heard the one about the guy that could throw one through a car-wash and not get the ball wet? Well, Koufax was actually that guy."
Pete Rose (para)

...and no, I'm not Jewish.

 

Koufax also went from no control as a newbie to pinpoint.  Wish our coaches could figure out how to teach control.  Lopez has re-established himself with a faster tempo and improved control.  He's not good but much improved.

[FoxForce2]

6 minutes ago, poppysox said:

How much would you need to pay Wilbur Wood in today's game?  I pitcher capable of handling both ends of a doubleheader.  Unreal!

Maybe Keuchel could get a knuckler going? Couldn't hurt.

[The Mighty Mite]

10 minutes ago, poppysox said:

How much would you need to pay Wilbur Wood in today's game?  I pitcher capable of handling both ends of a doubleheader.  Unreal!

Wood pitched over 300 innings 4 years in a row and 291 the 5th year, granted he was a knuckleballer but still......

[hi8is]

5 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

Maybe Keuchel could get a knuckler going? Couldn't hurt.

Maybe he could meet some of Esteban Loaiza’s friends and undertake a new “career path” this winter.

[kitekrazy]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Pitching to contact did not work well for Bummer.

And the NL has a free “get out of trouble” card at the end of their lineup every time.

Bummer doesn't start.

There is also the challenge of how long to keep a starter in vs. pulling them for a chance for a run in a close game.

Edited October 14, 2021 by kitekrazy

[caulfield12]

https://sports.yahoo.com/tony-la-russa-astros-character-shortage-white-sox-alds-014336495.html?.tsrc=fp_deeplink

Got to hand it to TLR for getting his name out there somehow when the season's already over and there's nothing left to fight for...

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, FoxForce2 said:

To  go very far at all in trying to compare players from different eras isn't much more than spitballing. An interesting comparison might be that of 1963-1966 Koufax and peak Kershaw (whom Koufax worked with and at least somewhat mentored.) Koufax only had two pitches, granted they were immaculate pitches, but still only two which wouldn't cut it in today's game. But if you were to put SK into a hot tub time machine in 1958 and tub-port him into the year 2010, develop a 3rd and 4th pitch, get him all the advantages of modern medicine and training, 5th day starts etc.  and you'd likely have something like peak Kershaw -with a hotter 4-seam and deeper curve...
and that with a superior talent in big game/high pressure situations. On a point like this I like to refer to Ty Cobb's gapped bat grip - LOL!
And what am I doing going OT on this thread anyway?

"You've heard the one about the guy that could throw a ball through a car-wash and not get the ball wet? Well, Koufax was actually that guy."
Pete Rose (para)

...and no, I'm not Jewish.

 

And what about the typical lineup he faced, mostly Madrigal or Altuve size, played half the year, sold insurance or worked at a store the other half of the year. Blacks and Latin Americans were mostly excluded until the end of his career (10% combined participation in the late 50s to about 20% when he stepped down), and the handful who did were stars / MVPs because they dominated in a league full of recreational softball players.

People cherry pick this or that player. But if you watch a game, you would think it was maybe a high school or college game by the size of the players.

Keith Hernandez one of the bigger players at 6 feet 180 lbs in the 1980s. “Giant” Mickey Mantle was 5’ 11” 195 lbs., now most middle infielders are bigger, stronger, more muscle, and they play sober. Koufax faced nine hitters, most of whom would be high school sized today, with a much lower physical ability than today’s player.

If Koufax, physically a giant in his era (6’ 2” 210 lbs) had to face the 2021 Astros or White Sox, with today’s strike zone, he’d have trouble getting through the lineup more than two times.

 

[South Side Hit Men]

3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

https://sports.yahoo.com/tony-la-russa-astros-character-shortage-white-sox-alds-014336495.html?.tsrc=fp_deeplink

Got to hand it to TLR for getting his name out there somehow when the season's already over and there's nothing left to fight for...

Such a fucking hypocritical asshat.

Dotson told reporters after the game Tony ordered him to throw at Murray and Cal Ripken because the Orioles where ass whupping another of his ill prepared White Sox playoff teams.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1983/10/17/knocking-their-sox-off

Quote

Dotson, normally the most careful and taciturn of athletes, is telling sundry listeners that not only did he "hit Ripken on purpose," but he had "taken a poll" to find out which Oriole "would be the best to hit," since orders to do so had "come down from the grapevine."

Tony is the last of the relics of yesteryear, MLB Mall Cop. Clueless about what’s going on during the game, laser focused on the unwritten rules.

He and his team were an embarrassment out there, Dusty just looked at him like he was the clown that he is. Even Abreu looked at him like WTF, he and his teammates  just wanted to get out of there at that point after being thoroughly unprepared at every facet of the game to compete against a quality and prepared playoff opponent.

Won’t be the last time as long as Tony remains. Even AJ who has only seen the team a few time this year was two-three steps ahead of La Russa in key situations. I wish the Sox had a manager who was more focused about beating his opponent than beaning his opponent.

Edited October 14, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[FoxForce2]

2 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

And what about the typical lineup he faced, mostly Madrigal or Altuve size, played half the year, sold insurance or worked at a store the other half of the year. Blacks and Latin Americans were mostly excluded until the end of his career (10% combined participation in the late 50s to about 20% when he stepped down), and the handful who did were stars / MVPs because they dominated in a league full of recreational softball players.

People cherry pick this or that player. But if you watch a game, you would think it was maybe a high school or college game by the size of the players.

Keith Hernandez one of the bigger players at 6 feet 180 lbs in the 1980s. “Giant” Mickey Mantle was 5’ 11” 195 lbs., now most middle infielders are bigger, stronger, more muscle, and they play sober. Koufax faced nine hitters, most of whom would be high school sized today, with a much lower physical ability than today’s player.

If Koufax, physically a giant in his era (6’ 2” 210 lbs) had to face the 2021 Astros or White Sox, with today’s strike zone, he’d have trouble getting through the lineup more than two times.

 

Maybe you missed the part in my post that postulated that you'd bring a 1958 Koufax forward to 2010 and then commence his development from there. But then according to your reasoning, that Ted Williams guy (21st Century updated), wouldn't make much of an impact in today's game either. Or a Willie Mays... or Hank Aaron...
So how well would Man O' War or Citation run against American Pharoah?
How well would Sugar Ray Robinson do against today's middleweights?
My point still stands - you can't judge/gauge a player outside of his era with much validity.
But then there's always MLB The Show 21...

p.s. Just taking size into account, I'd say Pedro Martinez at  5' 11' 170 lbs would do alright against today's lineups.

Edited October 14, 2021 by FoxForce2

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, FoxForce2 said:

Maybe you missed the part in my post that postulated that you'd bring a 1958 Koufax forward to 2010 and then commence his development from there. But then according to your reasoning, that Ted Williams guy (21st Century updated), wouldn't make much of an impact in today's game either. Or a Willie Mays... or Hank Aaron...
So how well would Man O' War or Citation run against American Pharoah?
How well would Sugar Ray Robinson do against today's middleweights?
My point still stands - you can't judge/gauge a player outside of his era with much validity.
But then there's always MLB The Show 21...

p.s. Just taking size into account, I'd say Pedro Martinez at  5' 11' 170 lbs would do alright against today's lineups.

You are missing my point. The average ball player today would have been a star  back in the day, the average player back in the day would have trouble making a ML roster today. There would be a few limited outliers, including some you call out, but they would be the exceptions, not the rule.

And the training and health components are not the only factors. The population pool was tens of millions of white Americans and a couple dozen black players when Koufax came up in Brooklyn, and wasn’t much larger by the time he retired. He was much larger size wise than nearly all other pitchers in his era. Today, the talent base has increased tenfold, reaches Latin America, Japan, Korea.

This phenomenon is not limited to baseball, as hockey and basketball grace experienced the same exponential growth in talent pool. George Mikan is not even starting in the NBA, let alone in the hall of fame, if born over the past few decades.

PS - A healthy Secretariat would have beaten them all, no horse will ever match or beat his record at Belmont, and it’s unlikely they touch his Kentucky Derby time.

In that sport, the population of available athletes has shrunk, as the tax write offs available to owners and breeders changed in 1986, and the sport has been in precipitous decline.

The 1973 Belmont Steaks is the greatest athletic performance in my lifetime, no human in any sport will ever come close to matching that level of domination.

Edited October 14, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[hi8is]

Yup, it’s officially the off-season so far as White Sox fans are concerned. ?

[FoxForce2]

3 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

You are missing my point. The average ball player today would have been a star  back in the day, the average player back in the day would have trouble making a ML roster today. There would be a few limited outliers, including some you call out, but they would be the exceptions, not the rule.

And the training and health components are not the only factors. The population pool was tens of millions of white Americans and a couple dozen black players when Koufax came up in Brooklyn, and wasn’t much larger by the time he retired. He was much larger size wise than nearly all other pitchers in his era. Today, the talent base has increased tenfold, reaches Latin America, Japan, Korea.

This phenomenon is not limited to baseball, as hockey and basketball grace experienced the same exponential growth in talent pool. George Mikan is not even starting in the NBA, let alone in the hall of fame, if born over the past few decades.

PS - A healthy Secretariat would have beaten them all, no horse will ever match or beat his record at Belmont, and it’s unlikely they touch his Kentucky Derby time.

In that sport, the population of available athletes has shrunk, as the tax write offs available to owners and breeders changed in 1986, and the sport has been in precipitous decline.

The 1973 Belmont Steaks is the greatest athletic performance in my lifetime, no human in any sport will ever come close to matching that level of domination.

We're way OT on this, but just to finish my angle on this point...
I do see what you're saying and have for quite some time. The sheer volume of non-American players competing for openings in professional American baseball alone would improve the talent base in MLB; not to mention a dramatic upswing in interest in baseball playing internationally. I asserted that projecting Koufax into the 21st Century would likely result in something like a peak Kershaw level of performance. A study of applied demographics doesn't do anything to change my mind. Obviously the talent level that SK faced is not that of what Kershaw has seen - but that fact alone does nothing to mitigate the valuation of SK's projected performance based on talent, aptitude and ability - i.e. a realized ceiling of performance. If Koufax was a 10 (ability) vs 5 (level of competition) and Kershaw were a 10 vs 8, there is no reason to assume that Koufax's 10 would decrease strictly due to the higher competition level. Mt Everest has not become shorter mountain due to the fact that it is now a tourist climb and while the massive influx of climbers and support staff has made the mountain a somewhat safer challenge, attempting Everest remains an extremely dangerous proposition.
I left Secretariat off because of the Belmont run. Regardless of the current state of horse racing, American Pharoah is still a first class horse and is something of a reverse example of the talent level faced by an individual. Citation was running among a population, at least an order of magnitude, re: volume, greater than that of even Secretariat.
You may have already seen this on Koufax (from Bill James 2017):
https://www.billjamesonline.com/koufax_and_wes_ferrell/

   

[kleedawg]

15 hours ago, ShoeLessRob said:

I liked Ozzie, still can’t understand half of what he says, but I like him. He should never be a manager again. But then again TLR shouldn’t be either. 

I kinda think of Ozzie like Billy Martin. A great baseball mind that wears out his welcome quickly. Hire him and you'll win for 2 or 3 years, then his craziness gets old. Fire him. Re-hire him a decade later for 2 or 3 years, fire him. Rinse, repeat.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, kleedawg said:

I kinda think of Ozzie like Billy Martin. A great baseball mind that wears out his welcome quickly. Hire him and you'll win for 2 or 3 years, then his craziness gets old. Fire him. Re-hire him a decade later for 2 or 3 years, fire him. Rinse, repeat.

This is not how things went in Florida.

[kleedawg]

8 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Such a fucking hypocritical asshat.

Dotson told reporters after the game Tony ordered him to throw at Murray and Cal Ripken because the Orioles where ass whupping another of his ill prepared White Sox playoff teams.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1983/10/17/knocking-their-sox-off

Tony is the last of the relics of yesteryear, MLB Mall Cop. Clueless about what’s going on during the game, laser focused on the unwritten rules.

He and his team were an embarrassment out there, Dusty just looked at him like he was the clown that he is. Even Abreu looked at him like WTF, he and his teammates  just wanted to get out of there at that point after being thoroughly unprepared at every facet of the game to compete against a quality and prepared playoff opponent.

Won’t be the last time as long as Tony remains. Even AJ who has only seen the team a few time this year was two-three steps ahead of La Russa in key situations. I wish the Sox had a manager who was more focused about beating his opponent than beaning his opponent.

LaRussa ordered the Ripken/Murray beanings because Kittle was drilled in the knee so bad he had to be removed from the game and couldn't play the rest of the series.

[kleedawg]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

This is not how things went in Florida.

True, but he didn't have the horses in Florida. Ozzie is not going to be around long enough to rebuild a team, but he is a guy who could take a team to the next level. Note, I'm not advocating that we bring him back necessarily. I think There are better options if Larussa is cut loose.

[Balta1701]

Just now, kleedawg said:

True, but he didn't have the horses in Florida. Ozzie is not going to be around long enough to rebuild a team, but he is a guy who could take a team to the next level. Note, I'm not advocating that we bring him back necessarily. I think There are better options if Larussa is cut loose.

Well yeah. You can find them by the fact that they consume oxygen to burn fuel. I will agree that having this team managed by an archaea would be a downgrade.

[kleedawg]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Well yeah. You can find them by the fact that they consume oxygen to burn fuel. I will agree that having this team managed by an archaea would be a downgrade.

not a eubacteria? LOL

[Kalapse]

11 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

Bummer doesn't start.

There is also the challenge of how long to keep a starter in vs. pulling them for a chance for a run in a close game.

I'd argue the lack of DH actually makes this decision easier in the NL since the manager has a built in excuse to pull the starter, no such luck in the AL, they often need to go by gut, the lineup card doesn't make the decision for you.

[Quin]

20 hours ago, ron883 said:

Bring Joe Cowley back as a beat reporter

Unban Ron from RealGM!

[ron883]

31 minutes ago, Quin said:

Unban Ron from RealGM!

Thank you for fighting the good fight! Those mods are corrupt as hell. 

[kitekrazy]

15 hours ago, poppysox said:

Koufax also went from no control as a newbie to pinpoint.  Wish our coaches could figure out how to teach control.  Lopez has re-established himself with a faster tempo and improved control.  He's not good but much improved.

This is what made Mark B so special.  He was also sound in fundamentals.

[kitekrazy]

3 hours ago, Kalapse said:

I'd argue the lack of DH actually makes this decision easier in the NL since the manager has a built in excuse to pull the starter, no such luck in the AL, they often need to go by gut, the lineup card doesn't make the decision for you.

I'm starting to detest the DH or 1B since this is the only position the Sox come down to from poor draft choices defensively.   I actually like the NL style of play and I hope they don't go DH.