caulfield12 Posted November 6, 2023 Share Posted November 6, 2023 4 hours ago, Dick Allen said: I don't know why, if the money is the same, TA would pick the White Sox for 2024. They told him what they think. They are going to suck, and best case scenario is he plays well enough to get traded midseason. Why would you want that? Chances of going to playoffs likely much higher at midseason trade in theory unless it was starting off with the Dodgers...who aren't exactly a sure thing these days, either. (Especially if Ohtani ended up in SF.) Braves, Orioles, Rangers, Astros, Phillies, etc. Especially since Sox playoff odds less than 1% already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 6, 2023 Share Posted November 6, 2023 36 minutes ago, pcq said: I question why people go on about off the field Tim. It smacks of bias. None of these guys are altar boys. His behavior is nothing new. His on the field performance seemed to fall apart at just about the same time as his off the field issues hit, and his on the field performance collapsed in such a specific way that you'd think he was just distracted. In 2022 as part of the opening 8 game losing streak, there was a multi-game stretch where he was fielding just about as well as I would. He wasn't hurt, he was still seemingly playing, but he basically forgot how to "Defense". While we never got the whole story, it sure seemed like "off the field stuff is leaking through onto the field" was the most rational explanation. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted November 6, 2023 Share Posted November 6, 2023 10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: His on the field performance seemed to fall apart at just about the same time as his off the field issues hit, and his on the field performance collapsed in such a specific way that you'd think he was just distracted. In 2022 as part of the opening 8 game losing streak, there was a multi-game stretch where he was fielding just about as well as I would. He wasn't hurt, he was still seemingly playing, but he basically forgot how to "Defense". While we never got the whole story, it sure seemed like "off the field stuff is leaking through onto the field" was the most rational explanation. We don't discuss off the field with other guys except Liam. We don't discuss Tim feeling like the token black on the squad. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, pcq said: We don't discuss off the field with other guys except Liam. We don't discuss Tim feeling like the token black on the squad. Do we know about any negative off the field stories for other players? Edited November 7, 2023 by Bob Sacamano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 8 minutes ago, pcq said: We don't discuss off the field with other guys except Liam. We don't discuss Tim feeling like the token black on the squad. Why not stop beating around your bush and just give us your political slant on things? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEANS Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 14 minutes ago, pcq said: We don't discuss off the field with other guys except Liam. We don't discuss Tim feeling like the token black on the squad. What? Do you just follow TA and him only? Do you not know of a certain starting pitcher with A LOT of off the field issues? Like others have pointed out, his on the field issues started when his off the field issues became a thing. It's not that difficult to connect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) I think I would have picked this option up. It's very likely Tim will bounce back significantly next year (even if only to league average), simply because it's hard to replicate such an abysmal season for a player who still has so much of his peak athleticism remaining. Moreover, one more year of TA is the perfect bridge to Montgomery, without any reasonable short-term alternative elsewhere in the system. Now, if they want to "compete," the only options are to (1) rush Montgomery, or (2) sign a free agent, which will be less talented than TA and cost just as much (or more, in terms of years). Actually, now that I think about it, this gives the Sox a couple options they are quite comfortable with: ruin prospects by rushing them to the majors and/or light money on fire by spending it as inefficiently as possible on middling players in free agency. I guess if I'm steel-manning the move, it may simply be the case that the year was so unbelievably toxic and TA had such a miserable season that there was just no way to expect better results in 2024 without a change of scenery. I can believe this. Edited November 7, 2023 by Eminor3rd 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEANS Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 @Eminor3rd I am firmly in the change of scenery camp. We brought back mainly the same group last year and it went even worse. Clean house as much as possible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFutureIsNear Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 28 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: His on the field performance seemed to fall apart at just about the same time as his off the field issues hit, and his on the field performance collapsed in such a specific way that you'd think he was just distracted. In 2022 as part of the opening 8 game losing streak, there was a multi-game stretch where he was fielding just about as well as I would. He wasn't hurt, he was still seemingly playing, but he basically forgot how to "Defense". While we never got the whole story, it sure seemed like "off the field stuff is leaking through onto the field" was the most rational explanation. Can you point to the off field issues for the rest of the team? Except for maybe Robert, literally the entire organization has underperformed and failed to meet expectations. Time to admit this organization is a cesspool of failure. Tim was just an easy target, albeit some was indeed self inflicted. With that said, this isn’t anything I’m upset about. I’m sure TA is just as happy to leave as fans are to get rid of him, might be best for all sides. If the $ is spent in an intelligent way, great. But if he was let go just for the sake of getting rid of him and saving $ I personally would have held on to him to see if a turn around and trade could have happened. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 Tim posted a nice tribute of his time here on his instragram. Luis Robert responded that he's his twin which Anderson responded that he loves him as a brother. Never got the impression at all that Luis, and TA alongside Hendriks and Giolito were ever the issues in the clubhouse but I know this board has made up their mind differently. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 7 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said: I think I would have picked this option up. It's very likely Tim will bounce back significantly next year (even if only to league average), simply because it's hard to replicate such an abysmal season for a player who still has so much of his peak athleticism remaining. Moreover, one more year of TA is the perfect bridge to Montgomery, without any reasonable short-term alternative elsewhere in the system. Now, if they want to "compete," the only options are to (1) rush Montgomery, or (2) sign a free agent, which will be less talented than TA and cost just as much (or more, in terms of years). Actually, now that I think about it, this gives the Sox a couple options they are quite comfortable with: ruin prospects by rushing them to the majors and/or light money on fire by spending it as inefficiently as possible on middling players in free agency. I guess if I'm steel-manning the move, it may simply be the case that the year was so unbelievably toxic and TA had such a miserable season that there was just no way to expect better results in 2024 without a change of scenery. I can believe this. Lighting money on fire by spending it inefficiently sounds an awful lot like the most likely outcome of picking up Tim Anderson's option. The downside risk is $14 million, which is a lot for a guy coming off a negative WAR season. Last offseason, no one got $14 million for putting up a negative WAR 2022 - if you exclude Conforto (out for the year) and international free agents. Out of this group of players, Kahnle got the largest contract at 2 years/$11 million total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 13 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said: Can you point to the off field issues for the rest of the team? Yeah, Mike Clevinger should have been suspended. For 2022, during that losing streak - it sure seems like everyone hated Keuchel, for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said: Tim posted a nice tribute of his time here on his instragram. Luis Robert responded that he's his twin which Anderson responded that he loves him as a brother. Never got the impression at all that Luis, and TA alongside Hendriks and Giolito were ever the issues in the clubhouse but I know this board has made up their mind differently. Still don't see who's going to watch over Robert. If anything he will feel more entitled and emboldened as the clear remaining franchise player. It's borderline ridiculous that they would theoretically have to bring in Salvy Perez just to "lead him" since he seems to be pretty passive in general...enough that he couldn't identify a former Blue Jays manager in his own clubhouse for half a season. Seems to pretty much march to the beat of his own drum/mer. Vaughn or Cease are the leaders now? Definitely not Benintendi by his body language all season. Edited November 7, 2023 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 not counting the 60 game 2020 where he missed 11 games, TA missed 39 games in 2019, 39 games in 2021, 83 games in 2022, and 39 games in 2023. Kind of hard to change the game when you aren’t playing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: not counting the 60 game 2020 where he missed 11 games, TA missed 39 games in 2019, 39 games in 2021, 83 games in 2022, and 39 games in 2023. Kind of hard to change the game when you aren’t playing. Seem to remember getting eviscerated for mentioning how many games TA and Moncada missed...another season added on to the back of the baseball cards, the overall trends are now that much clearer. Edited November 7, 2023 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 Just now, Balta1701 said: Lighting money on fire by spending it inefficiently sounds an awful lot like the most likely outcome of picking up Tim Anderson's option. The downside risk is $14 million, which is a lot for a guy coming off a negative WAR season. Last offseason, no one got $14 million for putting up a negative WAR 2022 - if you exclude Conforto (out for the year) and international free agents. Out of this group of players, Kahnle got the largest contract at 2 years/$11 million total. Right but who are you going to get on a one-year deal that has a chance to be better? Multiple years for Amed Rosario or Kiner-Falefa coming off 0.2 fWAR seasons? One year for a bit less for Brandon Crawford coming off a 63 wRC+? Didi Gregorious coming off of 58 wRC+? They're still gonna have to spend, it's just going to be a for a worse player, or a more expensive one, or both. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 All this discussion about a guy who hit one home run last year. One crappy home run. Maybe his can double his output in 2024 and hit two. Maybe he can hit in the face twice, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 18 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said: Right but who are you going to get on a one-year deal that has a chance to be better? Multiple years for Amed Rosario or Kiner-Falefa coming off 0.2 fWAR seasons? One year for a bit less for Brandon Crawford coming off a 63 wRC+? Didi Gregorious coming off of 58 wRC+? They're still gonna have to spend, it's just going to be a for a worse player, or a more expensive one, or both. As brutal as the Sox are going to be in 2024 it doesn't matter one iota who is playing or not playing. it's a complete cesspool. Nothing can save the situation save for new ownership and even if that were to happen on January 1 it will take a few years to clean out and rebuild the organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 28 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said: Right but who are you going to get on a one-year deal that has a chance to be better? Multiple years for Amed Rosario or Kiner-Falefa coming off 0.2 fWAR seasons? One year for a bit less for Brandon Crawford coming off a 63 wRC+? Didi Gregorious coming off of 58 wRC+? They're still gonna have to spend, it's just going to be a for a worse player, or a more expensive one, or both. If Amed Rosario wants multiple years, then nah I won't want him. I'd take him for 1 year, for less money than Anderson's option. Yeah I'd totally go for Kiner-Falefa if he got $5 million or less. Dude outperformed Anderson last year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 6 minutes ago, Buehrle>Wood said: Tim posted a nice tribute of his time here on his instragram. Luis Robert responded that he's his twin which Anderson responded that he loves him as a brother. Never got the impression at all that Luis, and TA alongside Hendriks and Giolito were ever the issues in the clubhouse but I know this board has made up their mind differently. I only joined 3ish years ago, but seemed as though people mostly liked Tim through 2021. This bad clubhouse bullshit against Tim, Yoan, Abreu is primarily either worthless douchbag media having something to write or podcast about daily, and or CYA by the garbage management and ownership. Surely couldn't be decades MLB worst player development, scouting, coaching, ownership, front office. Bottom line is the players who provided the Sox the most value are the players they most wanted gone, and the players who provided the least amount of value were the ones defended until in became untenable, with a few still defending. A few like Parrot were luckily spared due to the prorated Jerry lockout (under $10M net) or being dumped prior to the threshold. White Sox Career $M spent per 1 bWAR ($10M minimum career White Sox salary + cash bonuses) Sources: Spotrac $ Salary / Baseball Reference bWAR - Amounts include buyouts & deferred payments for players no longer here. Window White Sox here since 2020, amounts include prior years if applicable. Window - Career White Sox stats / payments to players here between 2020 - 2023 White Sox Players who have provided value: 0.74 Adam Eaton ($11.9M / 16.0) - Sadly this value was used up in 2015-2016, inverse in 2021 1.41 Lucas Giolito ($19.8M / 14.0 bWAR) 1.72 Carlos Rodon ($19.3M / 11.2) 2.15 Tim Anderson ($34.8M / 16.2) 2.72 Yoan Moncada ($37.8M / 13.9) 3.20 Jose Abreu ($101.9M / 31.8) 3.62 Luis Robert Junior ($45.6M / 12.6) 3.63 Mike Clevinger ($12.0M / 3.3) White Sox Players who provided negligible value: 4.50 Leury Garcia ($19.8M / 4.4 bWAR) 4.66 Eloy Jimenez ($26.1M / 5.6) 6.65 Alex Colome ($11.3M / 1.7) 7.33 Kendall Graveman ($13.2M / 1.8) 7.54 Lance Lynn ($38.5M / 5.1) 12.56 Liam Hendriks ($54.0M / 4.3) White Sox Players who provided horseshit value: 24.60 Yasmani Grandal ($61.5M / 2.5 bWAR) 38.91 Dallas Keuchel ($42.8M /1.1) 41.25 A. J. Pollock ($16.5M / 0.4) 55.00 Andrew Benintendi ($11M / 0.2) - $64M to go - Worse than the Burger Trade Infinity s%*# Kelvin Herrera ($12.6M / -0.6) Infinity s%*# Joe Kelly ($14.4M / -0.9) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 51 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: If Amed Rosario wants multiple years, then nah I won't want him. I'd take him for 1 year, for less money than Anderson's option. Yeah I'd totally go for Kiner-Falefa if he got $5 million or less. Dude outperformed Anderson last year! I agree, but given the dearth of available shortstops, I don’t see those guys coming at those prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 2 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said: I agree, but given the dearth of available shortstops, I don’t see those guys coming at those prices. I don't see a whole lot of teams looking for a shortstop though. Especially if there are decent ones on the trade market, and there appear to be a couple potential ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: I don't see a whole lot of teams looking for a shortstop though. Especially if there are decent ones on the trade market, and there appear to be a couple potential ones. If the Sox get Kiner-Falefa or Rosario at under $10m, I'll be down for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 11 hours ago, oldsox said: Why not stop beating around your bush and just give us your political slant on things? Never heard so much news about a guy's kid and baby mama. It was creepy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted November 7, 2023 Share Posted November 7, 2023 11 hours ago, oldsox said: Why not stop beating around your bush and just give us your political slant on things? Did I miss you at Bible study last nite? Lesson 45 was We Are God's Delightful Children. Everyone is welcome online at my Google Meet site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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