Buehrle should be in the Hall of Fame

[Colome's Hat]

I'm mostly going to paraphrase from my post on instagram on this but I think Buehrle should be in the hall of fame and I think, especially looking at Sabathia case, it becomes more cut and dry.  What I find interesting is that a lot of the people who make the case against Buehrle don't make the case based on numbers but on vibes.  He didn't dominate the way pitchers like Johnson did.  Or whatever.  But he didn't have to.  I'm not even a huge WAR head either as it diminishes players - Harold Baines comes to mind - but I do think it's a good clinical way at looking at data when it comes to the accomplishments of players.  

Getting back to his strikeout numbers, for the type of pitcher Buehrle was, they were actually pretty high.  I actually thought his total K number would be lower.  Furthermore, his defensive play and his ability to pick runners off make up for this.  He was one of the best players at his position in the history of the game at doing both.  Both are reflected in that WAR number.  

I genuinely think he will get in but it's gonna be another 10 years.  He's likely going to stay on the writers ballot for his enitre time of eligiblity and I think players will vote him in.  But I think writers really need to have a hard think about this because I'm convinced if he threw 95mph, he'd be in.

[The Mighty Mite]

Billy Pierce first, then Buerhle.

[WhiteSox2023]

18 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Billy Pierce first, then Buerhle.

Agreed, but it’s pretty close.

[flavum]

Agreed, and since same era, I would say Tim Hudson should be in. And Johan Santana too.

[The Mighty Mite]

36 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Agreed, but it’s pretty close.

A good argument can be made for both unfortunately it breaks my heart but for some reason Pierce just doesn’t get the support he should from the committees that vote on HOF induction, he was every bit as good as Whitey Ford and only Warren Spahn and Early Wynn won more games in the 1950s. 

Edited July 24 by The Mighty Mite

[chitownsportsfan]

I don't agree but maybe it's time to reconsider what a HOF pitching career looks like post 2000.

[The Mighty Mite]

14 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I don't agree but maybe it's time to reconsider what a HOF pitching career looks like post 2000.

Good point, not too many pitchers can win 20 games anymore, I doubt if we will ever see a pitcher with 300 career wins ever again, 200 will probably be tough.

[Bob Sacamano]

38 minutes ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Good point, not too many pitchers can win 20 games anymore, I doubt if we will ever see a pitcher with 300 career wins ever again, 200 will probably be tough.

Tossed a no-hitter, a perfect game, all the gold gloves he won, his durability from year to year. 

[greg775]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Mite said:

Good point, not too many pitchers can win 20 games anymore, I doubt if we will ever see a pitcher with 300 career wins ever again, 200 will probably be tough.

As greg's critics know I've been saying this for years. Nobody is winning 300 games again. So put Mark in. A good standard for the future would be being dominant in your era. Mark wins that battle. ... Of course it also will be tough in the future to be "dominant" in your era going five innings. I'd say averaging say 11 or so K's over those five innings probably will be a new standard down the line. I would think a lot of old timers will be reconsidered just so they can have Hall of Fame induction ceremonies in the future. Maybe add some more managers and announcers too.

Edited July 24 by greg775

[chitownsportsfan]

So I'm looking at bWAR leaderboards. MB is 66th all time in pitching bWAR. There are currently three active players ahead of him and IMO they are all slam dunk HOF: Verlander (26), Kershaw (28th) and Scherzer (30th). The only other active pitcher in the top 100 is Sale, at 80.

Around MB are guys such as Andy Pettite, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, Bret Saberhagan and so on. Saberhagan didn't even sniff the hall. Vet committee put Bunning in. Pettite is slowly rising and got 25% of the vote last winter. He will probably get in due to NYC media bias. Drysdale got in on his 10th vote. 

What does all of this tell us, if anything? I think it tells us pitcher HOF criteria are hard, the voters don't have a great handle for it, and MB if he does get in, will need a sustained campaign similar to Drysdale. 

[soxrwhite]

If he played for the Yankees all those years he played for the White Sox he'd already be in.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

14 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

So I'm looking at bWAR leaderboards. MB is 66th all time in pitching bWAR. There are currently three active players ahead of him and IMO they are all slam dunk HOF: Verlander (26), Kershaw (28th) and Scherzer (30th). The only other active pitcher in the top 100 is Sale, at 80.

Around MB are guys such as Andy Pettite, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, Bret Saberhagan and so on. Saberhagan didn't even sniff the hall. Vet committee put Bunning in. Pettite is slowly rising and got 25% of the vote last winter. He will probably get in due to NYC media bias. Drysdale got in on his 10th vote. 

What does all of this tell us, if anything? I think it tells us pitcher HOF criteria are hard, the voters don't have a great handle for it, and MB if he does get in, will need a sustained campaign similar to Drysdale. 

Buehrle was unique, and accomplished unique things. He had memorable moments and highlights. Truth is, if he was on the Yankees he'd be in. People ask what his stand out stat or quality was and it was durability and availability.

Hes the Craig biggio of pitchers. 

Edited July 24 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Colome's Hat]

19 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

So I'm looking at bWAR leaderboards. MB is 66th all time in pitching bWAR. There are currently three active players ahead of him and IMO they are all slam dunk HOF: Verlander (26), Kershaw (28th) and Scherzer (30th). The only other active pitcher in the top 100 is Sale, at 80.

Around MB are guys such as Andy Pettite, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, Bret Saberhagan and so on. Saberhagan didn't even sniff the hall. Vet committee put Bunning in. Pettite is slowly rising and got 25% of the vote last winter. He will probably get in due to NYC media bias. Drysdale got in on his 10th vote. 

What does all of this tell us, if anything? I think it tells us pitcher HOF criteria are hard, the voters don't have a great handle for it, and MB if he does get in, will need a sustained campaign similar to Drysdale. 

Where does Sabathaia rank?  

[chitownsportsfan]

17 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Buehrle was unique, and accomplished unique things. He had memorable moments and highlights. Truth is, if he was on the Yankees he'd be in. People ask what his stand out stat or quality was and it was durability and availability.

Hes the Craig biggio of pitchers. 

Problem is Biggio is 13th all time in PA. MB is not 13th all time in IP. I get what you're saying. I agree, but I'm not 100% convinced that durability, availability and "unique things" are a HOF case. I'm a small HOF guy of course.

@Colome's Hat T55 all time in bWAR for pitchers. Of course with NYC bias he was an easy induction.

Edited July 24 by chitownsportsfan

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

10 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Problem is Biggio is 13th all time in PA. MB is not 13th all time in IP. I get what you're saying. I agree, but I'm not 100% convinced that durability, availability and "unique things" are a HOF case. I'm a small HOF guy of course.

@Colome's Hat T55 all time in bWAR for pitchers. Of course with NYC bias he was an easy induction.

Yeah, but durability in the context of the era and game. 

Wasn't he the first pitching in MLB history to have 200+ IP in their firsr 14 seasons? Can't remember if he came up short of the record. 

[Jake]

I think there's a fair argument for Buehrle to get in. I think there's an easier-to-make argument for why he shouldn't. I like to look at Jay Jaffe's stuff on the Hall. He makes it easy to quantify what holds Mark back. He has a little bit less career WAR than the average SP hall of famer. It's kind of unfair, given that SP have been held to the highest standard of any position and it's the position that has changed the most in its usage in recent decades. That said, the more serious issue for Buehrle by the numbers is that he didn't have a great peak. We spent years arguing over whether MB was an "ace." It's not good for your Hall credentials if there wasn't unanimity on a point like that when a guy was at his best. He pitched through some offense-heavy times but it's just hard to point at the point in time where he was definitely best or almost the best in the league. To put it a different way, Johan Santana was indisputably an ace and perhaps the best pitcher in the game for a period of years. In that period, nobody thought Buehrle was better. 

So Buehrle is a longevity guy but he retired at age 36. He needed to *really* get longevity to get a lot of momentum via that route. He had a remarkable run of health and consistency that most guys would have needed more years to achieve. But I think Mark needed to do it for longer to make up for the lack of true dominance.

One thing that irks me is that Andy Pettitte gets a lot more support from Hall voters. First of all, Pettitte is a doper. That makes you lose all benefit of the doubt. And otherwise, the playing career is quite similar to Buehrle's. To be fair, Pettitte threw a whopping 276 playoff innings. Included in that were some great moments. Overall, he was basically the same pitcher in the postseason that he was in the regular season. That nudges me towards not giving too much extra credit to him since his ability to be in the playoffs was not all that much about him but more about his great teammates. Pettitte otherwise has some of the same demerits as Buehrle in terms of lacking dominance, having longevity but not really that much, etc.

I still think Buehrle has some special things that should push you into the "benefit of the doubt" column. I think stats should have an important role in the selection process but it's not everything. So what does Buehrle have that's off the stat sheet?

• Played most of career for one team, so special relationship with a fanbase
• World Series champion
• Rare combo of win plus save in the World Series
• Threw a 27-batter no-hitter
• Threw a perfect game separate from the no-no
• Set the then-record for consecutive batters retired, remains the record for a starting pitcher
• Iconic defensive play
• 4x Gold Glove winner, highly regarded for defense throughout career
• All-time leader in pickoffs (didn't know this until I looked it up just now)
• Only 58 stolen bases allowed in entire career
• Very unique pitching style, throwing softly, rarely striking batters out
• Excellent reputation for on and off-field character, integrity, etc.
• ??? probably forgetting some things

I think the ideal Hall of Famer is the kind of player who generates stories, e.g. "did you hear about the guy that ____ ?" Buehrle has that in spades. If someone loves or wants to love the game of baseball, they really need to know the Buehrle lore. He pairs that with a great playing career. I'd love to see him get in, but sadly I'm not optimistic about it.

Edited July 24 by Jake

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

I definitely get the small hall crowd, but it's a museum. Mark Buehrle is more than worthy of being enshrined. One of the most unique arms we've seen. A guy who very likely would not be drafted today, and certainly wouldnt have scouts attention. A guy who pitched quick in an era of slowness. He threw slow when everyone else was starting to fixate on velo. A guy who mastered the fringes in a way that got him off the fringe. A pitching doctor, who understood the mental side of the game better than most anyone who has stepped on a mound. 

My problem with the small hall crowd is they're typically fixated on peaks and "whod you want to start one game" but they're not arguing for someone like Jose Fernandez who should be in that argument of one game. Imo durability is a top 3 skill for a pitcher. Taking the ball every 5th day is job number one. Also, when youre asking for a guy to pitch one game, what are you looking for? A guy that can baffle and dominate a team by throwing a perfect game... with next best outcome being a no-no? Mark has done both those things so... 

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Mite said:

A good argument can be made for both unfortunately it breaks my heart but for some reason Pierce just doesn’t get the support he should from the committees that vote on HOF induction, he was every bit as good as Whitey Ford and only Warren Spahn and Early Wynn won more games in the 1950s. 

By WAR Billy was the best pitcher in the decade of the 1950's.

* Won 186 games with the White Sox from 1949-1961 (211 overall)

* Had 11 years of double digit wins (12 overall)

* 20 game winner in 1956 and 1957

* Threw 35 shutouts (38 overall)

* Had 19 saves (38 overall)

* Led the American League in complete games in 1956, 1957 and 1958 (Had 193 in his career)

* Led the American League in ERA in 1955 (1.97; for his career his ERA was 3.27)

* Led the American League in strikeouts in 1953 (186; had 1,999 in his career)

* Threw four one-hitters, including losing a perfect game with two outs in the 9^th inning (1958)

* Seven time All-Star and the only Sox pitcher to ever start an All-Star Game multiple times (1953, 1955, 1956)

* "Sports Illustrated" cover boy in May 1957

* "Sport" Magazine cover boy for October 1957

[whitesoxfan99]

I’ve become a bigger hall person over time (although staunchly against some of the ridiculous committee selections recently like Dave Parker and Harold Baines) so I’d ultimately be ok with Buehrle getting in.  Sabathia got in because his peak was better and he won the Cy Young.  Getting an accolade like that is massive for hall of fame consideration. The getting in because he’s a Yankee stuff is pretty lazy considering I’d argue Graig Nettles should definitely be in the hall and still hasn’t made it, Munson definitely should be (number 15 all time in catcher WAR, won an MVP and even past his peak would have clearly past a few in front of him since he was still a 3 win player when he died in the plane crash). 

Edited July 24 by whitesoxfan99

[BrittBurnsFan]

1 hour ago, whitesoxfan99 said:

I’ve become a bigger hall person over time (although staunchly against some of the ridiculous committee selections recently like Dave Parker and Harold Baines) so I’d ultimately be ok with Buehrle getting in.  Sabathia got in because his peak was better and he won the Cy Young.  Getting an accolade like that is massive for hall of fame consideration. The getting in because he’s a Yankee stuff is pretty lazy considering I’d argue Graig Nettles should definitely be in the hall and still hasn’t made it, Munson definitely should be (number 15 all time in catcher WAR, won an MVP and even past his peak would have clearly past a few in front of him since he was still a 3 win player when he died in the plane crash). 

I have become a larger HOF guy of late as well to a limit.  I love Harold Baines...was my favorite MLB player until Frank came around...and the HOF dust-up his selection caused was unfortunate because he truly is an HOFer as a person so it hurt to watch "attacks" on his worthiness.  That said...if you are doing side-by-sides of HOF status...Harold Baines' resume is almost identical to Andre Dawson's!  Minus the MVP (which is great but has relative meaning when doing a year-to-year analysis) and SBs...Baines is every bit as worthy of HOF membership as Andre Dawson is!  Yet...not much push back at all when Dawson got in!  

Edited July 24 by BrittBurnsFan

[kitekrazy]

I doubt you will ever see another pitcher so fundamentally sound like him again,

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, BrittBurnsFan said:

I have become a larger HOF guy of late as well to a limit.  I love Harold Baines...was my favorite MLB player until Frank came around...and the HOF dust-up his selection caused was unfortunate because he truly is an HOFer as a person so it hurt to watch "attacks" on his worthiness.  That said...if you are doing side-by-sides of HOF status...Harold Baines' resume is almost identical to Andre Dawson's!  Minus the MVP (which is great but has relative meaning when doing a year-to-year analysis) and SBs...Baines is every bit as worthy of HOF membership as Andre Dawson is!  Yet...not much push back at all when Dawson got in!  

Harold Baines never had the peak that Dawson had.  For my sake, if I  were a HOF voter, I would look for two things.

#1 A huge peak where they would be one of the top players at their position (if not THE best) putting up league leading numbers over a period of at least 3 to 5 seasons.

#2 Longevity that puts them into the historic rankings.

Harold never had #1.  He never hit 30 homers in a season. He drove in 100 in exactly one season.

I LOVED  Harold Baines, but I can't look at him as a HOF with guys like the guys who made it (and didn't) from that era.

I look at Mark Buehrle the same way.  Really good peak, not superstar peak.  He never led the league in wins, never had a sub 3 era, was a top 10 Cy Young once (5th), and didn't have an especially long career where he racked up a lot of wins or other counting stats.

[Milkman delivers]

Buehrle needed only to stick around for a few more years and he probably would’ve gotten to 250 wins or very close, and he’d be in. I respect his decision to walk away though, and I don’t think he cares about getting into the Hall. He may yet, but it’ll be the Veterans Committee or something.

@Jake, were the majority of those stolen bases Ichiro?

[whitesoxfan99]

5 hours ago, BrittBurnsFan said:

I have become a larger HOF guy of late as well to a limit.  I love Harold Baines...was my favorite MLB player until Frank came around...and the HOF dust-up his selection caused was unfortunate because he truly is an HOFer as a person so it hurt to watch "attacks" on his worthiness.  That said...if you are doing side-by-sides of HOF status...Harold Baines' resume is almost identical to Andre Dawson's!  Minus the MVP (which is great but has relative meaning when doing a year-to-year analysis) and SBs...Baines is every bit as worthy of HOF membership as Andre Dawson is!  Yet...not much push back at all when Dawson got in!  

Dawson was a much better all around player.  Baines was terrible defensively and added zero on the base paths. Dawson early in his career was legitimately great defensively (and won some gold gloves) and then also added value as a base runner.  They aren’t really even remotely comparable as players.  

[The Mighty Mite]

15 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

So I'm looking at bWAR leaderboards. MB is 66th all time in pitching bWAR. There are currently three active players ahead of him and IMO they are all slam dunk HOF: Verlander (26), Kershaw (28th) and Scherzer (30th). The only other active pitcher in the top 100 is Sale, at 80.

Around MB are guys such as Andy Pettite, Don Drysdale, Jim Bunning, Bret Saberhagan and so on. Saberhagan didn't even sniff the hall. Vet committee put Bunning in. Pettite is slowly rising and got 25% of the vote last winter. He will probably get in due to NYC media bias. Drysdale got in on his 10th vote. 

What does all of this tell us, if anything? I think it tells us pitcher HOF criteria are hard, the voters don't have a great handle for it, and MB if he does get in, will need a sustained campaign similar to Drysdale. 

Exactly on the people who do the voting, especially when it comes to pitching, there are a lot of pitchers in the HOF who have records not as good as Buehrle and Pierce.

Edited July 25 by The Mighty Mite