Ranger Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 05:05 PM) I understand you, greed, what you are saying is the benefit of a player like rios (and now beckham) is they give you power production out of a position that is usually void (CF, 2B), but by putting players like pierre in a traditional power position, or high offensive, position like LF, you negate the positives of having found above average production in CF. I understand that, on the other hand, the argument could be made that because you are getting above average production in CF and 2b, you can put less offensively-talented players - which means cheaper - in those positions. I don't like Pierre, and yeah, i agree that we are wasting an opportunity to have a great outfield since, really, the hardest piece was found, on the other hand I'm not sure I totally agree that you wash out the reason for getting an offensive CF if you don't find a powerhouse LF and RF. That seems unreasonable unless you are NY/BOS. That said, I really wish we would've taken a flyer on Kearns. What would have been a better, realistic option for them? I am also not entirely enamored with Pierre but I don't think picking up Austin Kearns and hoping he isn't bad is a better option than Pierre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 QUOTE (Ranger @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 05:20 PM) What would have been a better, realistic option for them? I am also not entirely enamored with Pierre but I don't think picking up Austin Kearns and hoping he isn't bad is a better option than Pierre. I do. And really.. I don't like (or see) the comparison of a LF and a RF (as Kearns is a RF, even if they both play the OF) but I stated that as well on the Pierre thread to you with what Ozzie Ball was saying.. I agree with what your saying, but you can't dismiss what Ozzie Ball was saying either. I can't speak for Randy Winn but say we signed Nick Johnson to 5.5 mil and traded for Gardner (KW mighta overpaid a bit, but as long as it wasn't Hudson or Flowers couldn't careless about the other "top" prospects) who makes the minimum.. whose to say he still could have signed Austin Kearns (whose had a couple bad years on a terrible Nationals team, but has a career .353 OBP and is one of the best defensive RF in the game) for next to little? (And btw, have no problem with the Putz signing and Teahan addition) That's what some mean by creativity which KW has been really good at in the past. I just think he "settled" for Pierre more or less cause of Ozzie's stress with a leadoff hitter, and Pierre being a veteran certainally helps that though I was never a fan of his (hopefully he can hit like last season or his Marlin years when he was younger). Not saying even THOSE additions would be as good/worse as the guys we have now, but I would certianally feel much better about them given their history in their numbers which is what some feel is mediocrity we've been getting, and honestly... it's hard to argue that unless what a couple said.. maybe we strike lightening with a couple of them having career years. (and I still feel good about Teahan this season) In his horrid, injury plagued years, Kearns was still a defensive stud in RF. I think if you take him out of a really bad franchise of losing like Washington and put somewhere that the emphasis of that said team is winning, then I believe he will have a nice bounce back year. Hell even as a minor league option, wouldn't do any harm. And BTW, like I said before, I agree with you on Teahan. I really believe the guy will also have a nice year as he is set in one position, is going to a team who wants to win, and is hitting half his games at a hitter's park. (though he won't be facing Mark Buehrle anymore) If he is still average, hey I was wrong and he is, what he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (Ranger @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 11:20 PM) What would have been a better, realistic option for them? I am also not entirely enamored with Pierre but I don't think picking up Austin Kearns and hoping he isn't bad is a better option than Pierre. I do. 1. Kearns is better on defense, and I'm all for creating the best defense possible in front of our pitching staff. 2. Kearns has a high career OBP. In contrast, Pierre's best years at OBP were solely created by average. I think it's fair to say the years of Pierre's .330 BA's are over. Kearns inevitably has more power than Pierre, as Mark Buehrle has more power than Juan Pierre. And it's likely Kearns would come on a cheap 1 year deal. But alas, we have a slap hitting girl-arm in LF for another 2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (SoxAce @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 05:35 PM) I do. And really.. I don't like (or see) the comparison of a LF and a RF (as Kearns is a RF, even if they both play the OF) but I stated that as well on the Pierre thread to you with what Ozzie Ball was saying.. In his horrid, injury plagued years, Kearns was still a defensive stud in RF. I think if you take him out of a really bad franchise of losing like Washington and put somewhere that the emphasis of that said team is winning, then I believe he will have a nice bounce back year. Hell even as a minor league option, wouldn't do any harm. And BTW, like I said before, I agree with you on Teahan. I really believe the guy will also have a nice year as he is set in one position, is going to a team who wants to win, and is hitting half his games at a hitter's park. (though he won't be facing Mark Buehrle anymore) If he is still average, hey I was wrong and he is, what he is. QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 06:22 PM) I do. 1. Kearns is better on defense, and I'm all for creating the best defense possible in front of our pitching staff. 2. Kearns has a high career OBP. In contrast, Pierre's best years at OBP were solely created by average. I think it's fair to say the years of Pierre's .330 BA's are over. Kearns inevitably has more power than Pierre, as Mark Buehrle has more power than Juan Pierre. And it's likely Kearns would come on a cheap 1 year deal. But alas, we have a slap hitting girl-arm in LF for another 2 years. Well, I didn't make the LF/Rf comparison. I was responding to the assertion that the Sox would be better off going with Kearns in RF and Quentin in left. I just don't think that's accurate at all. Pierre can play the position and is much better out there than Podsednik. The outfield defense has already improved and it wasn't even really the problem last year anyway (the real defensive issues last year were on the infield). At any rate, I really don't care about Pierre's arm. It really won't make a significant difference over the course of the season. Pierre is here because he can leadoff and there weren't a whole lot of options out there for that spot. PLus, we have a pretty good reason to believe he will be healthy all year. We don't know that about Kearns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I would consider Dye in RF and Podsednik in CF last year as a pretty brutal defensive OF last year. Defensive inferiority is often less noticeable unless you have a Soriano or Carlos Lee to admire, but the defense needed to be much improved in OF and infield. I'll wait and see if Teahan can be that upgrade, but Alexei and Beckham need to show some strength early on for me to call it an upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macsandz Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 " At any rate, I really don't care about Pierre's arm. It really won't make a significant difference over the course of the season." Some people don't like Pierre. For those people, why acknowledge he was a stellar LF last season, when you can claim he has a "girly arm" and convince some other readers he's a liability in the field. It's been a long, long time since a White Sox LF managed to play out there as well as Pierre did last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YonderLaroche Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 (edited) Last year we had Dewayne Wise, BA, Dye, hurt CQ in outfield to start the season.... this year we got Rios, Pierre, hopefully healthy CQ, A Jones, Kotsay.. Opening day starters 2009/2010 projected: C AJ/AJ 1B Konerko/Konerko 2B Getz/Beckham SS Ramirez/Ramirez 3B Fields/Teahen RF Dye/Quentin CF Wise/Rios LF Injured Quentin/Pierre DH Thome/??? BENCH Anderson/A. Jones Lillibridge/Nix Betemet/Vizquel Miller/??? (Flowers) None/Kotsay SP Buehrle/Buehrle Contreras/Peavy Danks/Danks Floyd/Floyd Colon/Freddy Jenks/Jenks Linebrink/Thorton Dotel/Putz Carrasco/Torres Richard/Linebrink Macdougal/Pena Please stop b****ing.... 2010 is far superior to 2009 so far and we can still acquire a bat for DH. Edited December 22, 2009 by b-Rye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (G&T @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 10:48 AM) According to Terry Boers and his people, the Sox did not think they would be stuck with Rios' salary. That was unplanned. That would be Warrick Holdman non-boxcheckingly bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (Ranger @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 06:17 PM) I think people are for more concerned with Teahen than they should be. I'll be surprised if he doesn't have a decent season. I'll wear it if he doesn't, but I think him having the knowledge that he is the guy at third base and the position is his, will benefit him. And I think his tools are better than people realize. You have to forget that he played in Kansas City, which for a lot of people, means a player isn't, or can't be, very good. A "decent season"? Is that what we're shooting for with this guy - a "decent season"? Crimony. All of this concern being spread around about guys like Rios and Pierre who, at least at some point in their respective careers, have registered above-average performances. Teahen, meanwhile, after five full years in the bigs, has yet to even perform at what would be considered league average. Ok, maybe three years ago in '06 he managed to do so, but that was just one time in five years, and even then he barely did so. And I'm sorry, all of this gobble-de-gook about having to play for a lowly team like the Royals and/or having to play multiple positions in the past and/or having to play in Kaufmann Stadium are just lame excuses. Ever heard of Zach Greinke? He played in KC last year, and last I looked he had a pretty decent year playing under similar conditions. Same can be said for guys like Billy Butler and David Dejesus. No, I find those to be rather weak excuses for his continuous below-average performances during his career to-date. But to be fair, I certainly hope he proves me wrong. I hope he magically breaks out and has the kind of season some of you are suggesting he's capable of having. The more wrong he proves me, the better I will like it, because it will be good for the Sox. But so far, unfortunately, he has done absolutely nothing to create any confidence in me that he won't register yet another season just like he has in the four of the five seasons that he's been in the Major Leagues thus far. And sadly, that won't help the Sox in their fight to return to prominence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 (edited) QUOTE (Ranger @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 06:51 PM) The outfield defense has already improved and it wasn't even really the problem last year anyway (the real defensive issues last year were on the infield). Uh.. what? I believe it was Kalapse who had a statistic saying we were, defensively, the worst defensive OF in the entire league or something to that extent. Our defensive OF was a definite problem. And as far as the infield, other than Josh Fields, our infield defense was not nearly as bad as the OF defense. (Getz was serviceable, Alexei besides the ADD, has alot of range and had a good UZR, and Konerko is Konerko) The sox team last year had alot of problems entirely. I will agree that KW has address that well with Pierre in LF (despite the arm) Quentin moving back to his natural position in RF, Rios (defensive stud) in CF, Alexei taking another step at SS and we will see how Teahan and Beckham do in a full year at their positions. QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 07:10 PM) I would consider Dye in RF and Podsednik in CF last year as a pretty brutal defensive OF last year. Defensive inferiority is often less noticeable unless you have a Soriano or Carlos Lee to admire, but the defense needed to be much improved in OF and infield. I'll wait and see if Teahan can be that upgrade, but Alexei and Beckham need to show some strength early on for me to call it an upgrade. Agreed, and your not even counting Wise (despite "the catch") Kotsay (some games) Lillibridge, etc.. we ran out there. Dye is one of the worst defensive RFs in the game. We even had Pods in RF in some games which was pretty embarrassing to watch. No doubt, our defensive OF has greatly improved from last year. We'll see how the defensive IF (mainly Teahan and Beckham) do. Edited December 22, 2009 by SoxAce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I think our OF defense cost us around 30-35 runs according to UZR. Dye was like a -20, Quentin was a -5, and Pods was like a -2 or 3. Anderson was positive, as was Wise. Kotsay was slightly negative. So yeah, around a -30 UZR in the outfield truly sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (chw42 @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 10:55 PM) I think our OF defense cost us around 30-35 runs according to UZR. Dye was like a -20, Quentin was a -5, and Pods was like a -2 or 3. Anderson was positive, as was Wise. Kotsay was slightly negative. So yeah, around a -30 UZR in the outfield truly sucks. The sox were -25.6... tied with the red sox for third worst in baseball...ahead of the blue jays (-28.8) and twins (-30.6). But remember, the outfield defense wasn't really a problem anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (qwerty @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 05:53 AM) The sox were -25.6... tied with the red sox for third worst in baseball...ahead of the blue jays (-28.8) and twins (-30.6). But remember, the outfield defense wasn't really a problem anyway. I would've never imagined the blue jays were that bad... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (qwerty @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 11:53 PM) The sox were -25.6... tied with the red sox for third worst in baseball...ahead of the blue jays (-28.8) and twins (-30.6). But remember, the outfield defense wasn't really a problem anyway. So two of the four worst teams were playoff teams? Interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 08:52 AM) I would've never imagined the blue jays were that bad... Vernon Wells was a -18.2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 02:35 PM) Vernon Wells was a -18.2. Jesus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Mystery? Is Scooby Doo involved somehow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 QUOTE (b-Rye @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 08:51 PM) Last year we had Dewayne Wise, BA, Dye, hurt CQ in outfield to start the season.... this year we got Rios, Pierre, hopefully healthy CQ, A Jones, Kotsay.. Opening day starters 2009/2010 projected: C AJ/AJ 1B Konerko/Konerko 2B Getz/Beckham SS Ramirez/Ramirez 3B Fields/Teahen RF Dye/Quentin CF Wise/Rios LF Injured Quentin/Pierre DH Thome/??? BENCH Anderson/A. Jones Lillibridge/Nix Betemet/Vizquel Miller/??? (Flowers) None/Kotsay SP Buehrle/Buehrle Contreras/Peavy Danks/Danks Floyd/Floyd Colon/Freddy Jenks/Jenks Linebrink/Thorton Dotel/Putz Carrasco/Torres Richard/Linebrink Macdougal/Pena Please stop b****ing.... 2010 is far superior to 2009 so far and we can still acquire a bat for DH. NSS made that same case in another thread. Adding to that, the guys that are still here are a mix of ones that you could reasonable expect to improve, (Floyd, Danks, Ramirez, Rios), hope to hold their own another season (Mark, Quentin, AJ), may decline (Kong) and who the hell knows about Jenks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatScott82 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (b-Rye @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 08:51 PM) Last year we had Dewayne Wise, BA, Dye, hurt CQ in outfield to start the season.... this year we got Rios, Pierre, hopefully healthy CQ, A Jones, Kotsay.. Opening day starters 2009/2010 projected: C AJ/AJ 1B Konerko/Konerko 2B Getz/Beckham SS Ramirez/Ramirez 3B Fields/Teahen RF Dye/Quentin CF Wise/Rios LF Injured Quentin/Pierre DH Thome/??? BENCH Anderson/A. Jones Lillibridge/Nix Betemet/Vizquel Miller/??? (Flowers) None/Kotsay SP Buehrle/Buehrle Contreras/Peavy Danks/Danks Floyd/Floyd Colon/Freddy Jenks/Jenks Linebrink/Thorton Dotel/Putz Carrasco/Torres Richard/Linebrink Macdougal/Pena Please stop b****ing.... 2010 is far superior to 2009 so far and we can still acquire a bat for DH. Wow- the 2010 team is much improved! It will be interesting to see what bat KW brings in for DH? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 QUOTE (Tex @ Dec 22, 2009 -> 09:48 AM) NSS made that same case in another thread. Adding to that, the guys that are still here are a mix of ones that you could reasonable expect to improve, (Floyd, Danks, Ramirez, Rios), hope to hold their own another season (Mark, Quentin, AJ), may decline (Kong) and who the hell knows about Jenks. Really, the only downgrade is Carrasco to Torres, and that spot shouldn't be needed a lot with this staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHITESOXRANDY Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 I expect Rios to hit around .275 with an OBP around .330 along with about 15 HRs and 20 SBs. Add that to his above average defense in CF and he'll give the Sox the best performance from CF that they've had in quite a while. I'll bet he comes close to doubling that in homers and stolen bases and that his BA is higher than .275. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrlesque Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 QUOTE (b-Rye @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 08:51 PM) Last year we had Dewayne Wise, BA, Dye, hurt CQ in outfield to start the season.... this year we got Rios, Pierre, hopefully healthy CQ, A Jones, Kotsay.. Opening day starters 2009/2010 projected: C AJ/AJ 1B Konerko/Konerko 2B Getz/Beckham SS Ramirez/Ramirez 3B Fields/Teahen RF Dye/Quentin CF Wise/Rios LF Injured Quentin/Pierre DH Thome/??? BENCH Anderson/A. Jones Lillibridge/Nix Betemet/Vizquel Miller/??? (Flowers) None/Kotsay SP Buehrle/Buehrle Contreras/Peavy Danks/Danks Floyd/Floyd Colon/Freddy Jenks/Jenks Linebrink/Thorton Dotel/Putz Carrasco/Torres Richard/Linebrink Macdougal/Pena Please stop b****ing.... 2010 is far superior to 2009 so far and we can still acquire a bat for DH. You have a little bit of creative bookkeeping here, but I like it overall. You can really see how much more "set" this team will be next year compared to last year, when they seemed so makeshift/random/in flux coming out of the gate. One minor area I'd disagree is the assumed "improvement" from Dye to Quentin. If just talking about the start of the season, Dye hit .302 with 20 HRs before the All-Star break last year. I'd be ecstatic to get that out of Quentin in '10. Otherwise, add a DH and this team is about ready to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 I'll bet he comes close to doubling that in homers and stolen bases and that his BA is higher than .275. Hope so. You obviously consider Rios a star cause 30 homers with his defense would be probably worth of an all star berth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 QUOTE (b-Rye @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 08:51 PM) Jenks/Jenks Linebrink/Thorton Dotel/Putz Carrasco/Torres Richard/Linebrink Macdougal/Pena Hmmm... so I guess Thornton somehow died last year, but somehow is relevant this year eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 QUOTE (SoxAce @ Dec 24, 2009 -> 12:00 AM) Hmmm... so I guess Thornton somehow died last year, but somehow is relevant this year eh? Coop fixed him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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