Irreconcilable Differences

[kitekrazy]

 

Your posts in this thread have been wonderfully insightful, and have helped me to crystallize my own thoughts on this topic.

 

I'd just like to add another item about the Reinsdorf-owned Sox: Not only has the franchise not won enough, it doesn't believe in the value of building a minor league system. That is an organizational philosophy straight from the top; JR doesn't believe in making premium investments in prospects who haven't "proven" anything yet. So, we take the cheapest route possible in building our system. It isn't a coincidence that the only sustained period of success during the Reinsdorf era came from the efforts of the Himes regime. Instead, we rely on dumpster diving -- looking for bargain free agents and hoping they pan out. Usually, they don't; with 2005 being the glaring exception.

 

Part of the way fans develop a passion for their teams is by following their minor league prospects as they develop. It gives the fans a greater sense of identification with the players as they roll through the system, and the bond with them is strong once they reach the majors. Of course, we have had relatively few prospects worth following the past decade. Many of those who have developed have been traded away.

 

In sum, we don't believe in building from within, and we won't pay top prices for premier free agents. What is left is the steaming pile of mediocrity that is the JR Sox. Like I said in an earlier post, I can no longer support this franchise with this owner. It's difficult to say this, as I've loved the Sox with all my heart since 76. But the bottom line is that this is entertainment. This is not life and death; it's baseball. And if following this team makes me miserable because I fundamentally disagree with several key principles upon which it is run, the onus is on me to change my behavior. I certainly do not expect JR to change.

 

I live in Dallas, and my son loves the Rangers. For years I've tried to steer him towards the Sox, but he finds their games "horrifyingly boring". He always has. Even though the Rangers suck, he'd rather watch them lose 10-7 than watch the Sox win. I'm learning to embrace his thought process, and enjoy the game of baseball with his team rather than worry about the perpetual incompetence of my own.

 

This is a great post as well.

[kitekrazy]

If the attendance data you are referencing support your statement, then the Sox should move. Perhaps Chicago simply cannot support two teams?

 

I tend to believe this. It's not the Cubs so much as having to compete with Wrigley Field and the surrounding atmosphere.

 

[southsider2k5]

So why not let it replenish as quickly as possible? Let's let the bandwagon open far and wide! That's good for both you and me. That means the team we love and support is actually doing something of interest, which the 2015 brand, much like four of its most previous brands, has not. It also means we can pack our already-diminished ballpark to its diminished capacity. Why would you have a problem with that?

 

Right. Because winning is something you just snap your fingers and do. It isn't like the White Sox went out and spent $100 million+ dollars this off season to try to compete this year or anything. Can we at least pretend to exist in the land of reality?

[LDF]

Right. Because winning is something you just snap your fingers and do. It isn't like the White Sox went out and spent $100 million+ dollars this off season to try to compete this year or anything. Can we at least pretend to exist in the land of reality?

 

this team can put a bunch of wins together, pretty much like they did before. this team has the horses to pull it off, that is what i believe.

[Eminor3rd]

Some of you just THRIVE on negativity.

 

What the f*** does Buddy Bell have to do with Melky Cabrera's 54 wRC+ or John Danks' 5.11 ERA? This team has played like s*** this year and they deserve to lose, but giving up your fandom over a s***ty season is just so dramatic. Fine, blame the manager if you want to pretend you have any idea why they're hitting so badly, but the bottom line is they're losing because they're playing like s***. The players have not performed anywhere close to the level they could have been expected to perform. It happens to 10+ teams every year.

 

I don't know why it's so satisfying to find a political reason to hate your team.

[southsider2k5]

?

 

That makes absolutely no sense.

 

Chicago could support two teams easily, and has when the stars align to the liking of the bandwagon. Sox fans choose to withhold their support for pretty much any reason under the sun, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. The market is very much there. Trust me, if the White Sox were to leave for some reason, there would be at least a franchise or two which would kill for the market, Oakland and Tampa Bay come to mind right away.

 

The frustrating part is if Sox fans had half of the loyalty of the rest of the top notch franchises in baseball, they would have the resources and ability to do what other franchises can do. They wouldn't have to choose between major league and minor league spending.

[southsider2k5]

Some of you just THRIVE on negativity.

What the f*** does Buddy Bell have to do with Melky Cabrera's 54 wRC+ or John Danks' 5.11 ERA? This team has played like s*** this year and they deserve to lose, but giving up your fandom over a s***ty season is just so dramatic. Fine, blame the manager if you want to pretend you have any idea why they're hitting so badly, but the bottom line is they're losing because they're playing like s***. The players have not performed anywhere close to the level they could have been expected to perform. It happens to 10+ teams every year.

 

I don't know why it's so satisfying to find a political reason to hate your team.

 

When you are holding 35 year old grudges on the topic, this is the absolute truest post in the entire thread.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Some of you just THRIVE on negativity.

 

What the f*** does Buddy Bell have to do with Melky Cabrera's 54 wRC+ or John Danks' 5.11 ERA? This team has played like s*** this year and they deserve to lose, but giving up your fandom over a s***ty season is just so dramatic. Fine, blame the manager if you want to pretend you have any idea why they're hitting so badly, but the bottom line is they're losing because they're playing like s***. The players have not performed anywhere close to the level they could have been expected to perform. It happens to 10+ teams every year.

 

I don't know why it's so satisfying to find a political reason to hate your team.

 

 

This post is awesome. How do you stop being a fan of a team? Doesn't make sense to me.

[LDF]

I tend to believe this. It's not the Cubs so much as having to compete with Wrigley Field and the surrounding atmosphere.

 

the sox and the fans of the sox can support this team and do it well.

 

1. the teams management who can put a FO who know what they are doing, not hiring friends of the family.

 

2. spend wisely on the salary, but i will not go further on this subject.

 

3. get good coaches and managers.

[Dunt]

This post is awesome. How do you stop being a fan of a team? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

Yup. These types of fans won't be missed.

[gatnom]

Chicago could support two teams easily, and has when the stars align to the liking of the bandwagon. Sox fans choose to withhold their support for pretty much any reason under the sun, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. The market is very much there. Trust me, if the White Sox were to leave for some reason, there would be at least a franchise or two which would kill for the market, Oakland and Tampa Bay come to mind right away.

 

The frustrating part is if Sox fans had half of the loyalty of the rest of the top notch franchises in baseball, they would have the resources and ability to do what other franchises can do. They wouldn't have to choose between major league and minor league spending.

 

The White Sox are spending enough money to win right now. They just don't spend it on the right guys.

 

Also, it honestly sounds like you're mad at bandwagon fans... for acting like bandwagon fans.

Edited May 26, 2015 by gatnom

[LDF]

The White Sox are spending enough money to win right now. They just don't spend it on the right guys.

 

Also, it honestly sounds like you're mad at bandwagon fans... for acting like bandwagon fans.

 

i may be beating this drum, but i still think that positional players the sox got can do it. i now have no faith in the coaches / manager.

[LVSoxFan]

This is definitely sad to watch and I think whoever said it has it right when they say that this is it as long as we're in the JR/KW era.

 

As I've said before, the Sox need a Hawks-like reboot as happened when old man Wirtz died and Rocky took over.

 

And while I don't like the Ricketts, you can't deny they got the big-name talent both on the field and on the managerial side so they're doing pretty much everything you'd want to get a winner.

 

We seem to be simply offering different variations of a formula that hasn't worked really at all in the past decade, since the glorious 2005.

[LDF]

This is definitely sad to watch and I think whoever said it has it right when they say that this is it as long as we're in the JR/KW era.

 

As I've said before, the Sox need a Hawks-like reboot as happened when old man Wirtz died and Rocky took over.

 

And while I don't like the Ricketts, you can't deny they got the big-name talent both on the field and on the managerial side so they're doing pretty much everything you'd want to get a winner.

 

We seem to be simply offering different variations of a formula that hasn't worked really at all in the past decade, since the glorious 2005.

 

during the season, it may not happen, maybe in the off season. but get a manager, even if it is going outside the org. get a manager, new coaches, get new coaches for the minor league as well, if it is needed. i do like the sox hitting coach, but that is now at this moment.

[Quin]

Some of you just THRIVE on negativity.

 

What the f*** does Buddy Bell have to do with Melky Cabrera's 54 wRC+ or John Danks' 5.11 ERA? This team has played like s*** this year and they deserve to lose, but giving up your fandom over a s***ty season is just so dramatic. Fine, blame the manager if you want to pretend you have any idea why they're hitting so badly, but the bottom line is they're losing because they're playing like s***. The players have not performed anywhere close to the level they could have been expected to perform. It happens to 10+ teams every year.

 

I don't know why it's so satisfying to find a political reason to hate your team.

 

 

Chicago could support two teams easily, and has when the stars align to the liking of the bandwagon. Sox fans choose to withhold their support for pretty much any reason under the sun, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. The market is very much there. Trust me, if the White Sox were to leave for some reason, there would be at least a franchise or two which would kill for the market, Oakland and Tampa Bay come to mind right away.

 

The frustrating part is if Sox fans had half of the loyalty of the rest of the top notch franchises in baseball, they would have the resources and ability to do what other franchises can do. They wouldn't have to choose between major league and minor league spending.

 

 

When you are holding 35 year old grudges on the topic, this is the absolute truest post in the entire thread.

 

 

This post is awesome. How do you stop being a fan of a team? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

That was four straight posts of awesome.

[gatnom]

i may be beating this drum, but i still think that positional players the sox got can do it. i now have no faith in the coaches / manager.

 

My point is more that the White Sox don't need any more resources to win games: they're already supporting a top half payroll without skimping on amateur spending (refusing to game the international market notwithstanding). Management (Hahn and KW) just hasn't effectively used its resources for the last decade, and it shows.

 

 

[LDF]

My point is more that the White Sox don't need any more resources to win games: they're already supporting a top half payroll without skimping on amateur spending (refusing to game the international market notwithstanding). Management (Hahn and KW) just hasn't effectively used its resources for the last decade, and it shows.

with all due respect, i could care less about the last decade.

 

they, the sox FO has to find an aggressive fix to get this team going.

[ptatc]

The White Sox are spending enough money to win right now. They just don't spend it on the right guys.

 

Also, it honestly sounds like you're mad at bandwagon fans... for acting like bandwagon fans.

I don't think I heard a single person, fan or "expert" who didn't think the offseason was filled with good moves for the right guys. For some reason most of these haven't panned out so far. That's baseball.

 

Ventura will need to be fired because you can't fire the whole team. Personally, I think he has done a pretty good job but the results aren't there so something will change.

[gatnom]

I don't think I heard a single person, fan or "expert" who didn't think the offseason was filled with good moves for the right guys. For some reason most of these haven't panned out so far. That's baseball.

 

Ventura will need to be fired because you can't fire the whole team. Personally, I think he has done a pretty good job but the results aren't there so something will change.

 

My point is that there are some posters on here who seem to blame the fans for not attending enough games to provide enough money for this team to be successful. This team absolutely has enough resources to be successful, moribund fan base or not. The guys in charge have just failed at scouting and/or developing their players, which has lead to our one playoff appearance since 2005.

 

I liked the off season, fwiw.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

My point is that there are some posters on here who seem to blame the fans for not attending enough games to provide enough money for this team to be successful. This team absolutely has enough resources to be successful, moribund fan base or not. The guys in charge have just failed at scouting and/or developing their players, which has lead to our one playoff appearance since 2005.

 

I liked the off season, fwiw.

I don't think anyone is blaming the fans for not coming to the games, but saying, hey, you don't come to the games, it's pretty hard to have the $180 million payroll required to provide the latest hurdles that need to be cleared to attend. If the fans don't come out when they are winning, it's pretty hard to argue against the limited opportunities they will have to improve, and be a team that can be expected to be in the playoffs each season. Again, I have bashed the attendance, but I don't blame people for not going. Just don't b**** and moan when the winning isn't sustained when you won't support the winning in the first place.

[Balta1701]

I don't think anyone is blaming the fans for not coming to the games, but saying, hey, you don't come to the games, it's pretty hard to have the $180 million payroll required to provide the latest hurdles that need to be cleared to attend. If the fans don't come out when they are winning, it's pretty hard to argue against the limited opportunities they will have to improve, and be a team that can be expected to be in the playoffs each season. Again, I have bashed the attendance, but I don't blame people for not going. Just don't b**** and moan when the winning isn't sustained when you won't support the winning in the first place.

Right now 15 teams are .500 or better.

 

7 of them have lower payrolls than the White Sox.

[Dick Allen]

Right now 15 teams are .500 or better.

 

7 of them have lower payrolls than the White Sox.

Yes but how many of them are teams that make the playoffs 3 or 4 years out of 5?

[chitownsportsfan]

I don't begrudge any fan that wants to take a step back after the last 30 year of mostly futility but "renouncing your fanship" seems absurd to me. The White Sox are in my blood thanks to my pops, I won't ever quit them but I will vote with my pocketbook this year. When they come to Safeco I won't go to all three games and I won't plan a trip to the Cell until the prove they are a good team again.

 

But I will continue to follow the team, no matter how bad it gets.

[pettie4sox]

I don't begrudge any fan that wants to take a step back after the last 30 year of mostly futility but "renouncing your fanship" seems absurd to me. The White Sox are in my blood thanks to my pops, I won't ever quit them but I will vote with my pocketbook this year. When they come to Safeco I won't go to all three games and I won't plan a trip to the Cell until the prove they are a good team again.

 

But I will continue to follow the team, no matter how bad it gets.

 

Yeah I feel the same way. I'm a SOX fan until I die but whether I not I attend or watch games on TV depends on the product they put on the field.

[Balta1701]

Yes but how many of them are teams that make the playoffs 3 or 4 years out of 5?

The real trick is that the most of the teams who do things like that move themselves higher up because they're winning a lot. The Rangers won several years in a row and, despite the lack of a world series, now have a much higher payroll than us. Before they hit those runs of success they had lower payrolls than us. The Giants had a lower payroll than us for much of the late 2000s and didn't pass us by until 2012.

 

Those teams turned success into a model that has allowed them several years of being competitive and even lets them survive a down year or two because they climb their way back in.