Corpse ball is back

[captain54]

If the White Sox blow this and Ventura isn't fired, I'm not sure Robin could do anything to get fired.

 

If Ventura is fired during the course of the season, JR and Williams would be admitting they made a mistake in giving him the gig. So it's not gonna happen, because I don't think Hahn has the final say in the matter

 

Since 1981, no Sox manager has been fired during the tenure of the GM that hired him (with the exception of Terry Bevington

 

 

Edited May 25, 2016 by captain54

[soxforlife05]

If Ventura is fired during the course of the season, JR and Williams would be admitting they made a mistake in giving him the gig. So it's not gonna happen, because I don't think Hahn has the final say in the matter

 

Since 1981, no Sox manager has been fired during the tenure of the GM that hired him (with the exception of Terry Bevington

 

I'm sure KW had a lot to do with Ozzie's departure

[hogan873]

Chris Sale had a bad game. Every ace will have an off day, and we can't expect him to be the stopper every single time he pitches. But there was so much more terrible that went on last night. Avila should be benched for a while after not hustling after the wild pitch allowing the runner to get to third. That was little league s***. Lawrie's baserunning on the ground ball by Garcia was bad, but Garcia's baserunning was horrendous. There's no reason for him to get caught off of first. Those two mistakes killed a decent rally.

 

I have no idea what they need to do, but it's pretty obvious that the team we're seeing now is not the same as the team we saw in the first 30 games or so. They need to get their heads out of their asses now before they fall out of first. I'm usually pretty positive about the team, but they weren't beat by two great pitching performances in the last two games. They were beat because they played terrible baseball.

[SCCWS]

 

I think Jerry will be very reluctant to let Robin go especially during the season. He was convinced by his basketball GM that firing Thibodeau would change things.

[Steve9347]

They have a 1.5 game lead near the end of May. All teams go through a rut, they'll go on a run again soon.

[Y2Jimmy0]

If the White Sox don't make the playoffs, Ventura will not be the manager next year. Probably won't happen before that though.

[flavum]

If the White Sox don't make the playoffs, Ventura will not be the manager next year. Probably won't happen before that though.

 

Agreed, but if the Sox completely tank in the next month and are under .500 at the break, he should be gone.

 

But as of this morning, the Sox are still in first place, so it's time to get back on track and play the 42 games until the break at 26-16, and not 16-26.

[Special K]

It's the same problem every year... the team CANNOT hit. Last year, we had black holes in the lineup at OF, DH, C, SS, 2B and 3B. This year, we have black holes in the lineup at SS, C, DH and OF. We need at least one more impact bat.

 

Also, everything is even worse when Abreu struggles. Not to mention, Robin likes, no wait, he LOVES, to have a black hole in the lineup batting second after Eaton, which makes no sense whatsoever. Robin refuses to put Lawrie or Melky batting second. I don't see any point in having a lead off hitter with a high OBP if you're not going to put someone batting second who can move him along...

 

The problem is three fold: need at least another impact bat; need Abreu to get better; and need Robin to learn how to put a lineup together (and that doesn't mean batting Abreu second).

[GreatScott82]

Agreed, but if the Sox completely tank in the next month and are under .500 at the break, he should be gone.

 

But as of this morning, the Sox are still in first place, so it's time to get back on track and play the 42 games until the break at 26-16, and not 16-26.

Their hitting approach is awful right now. No discipline whatsoever. Cleveland worked some deep counts against Sale which rattled him in my opinion. When the Sox were winning frequently to start the year off, they were also working deep counts; let's get back to that. *Steverson it's up to you to get their heads out of their asses -- so do your job!

 

Robin will not be fired-- ever. If he leaves, it will be after the season when his contract expires and it will be 'mutually'. (Assuming they miss the playoffs)

 

I think what we will see from now until the break is a .500 team ( 21-21). Unless, Hahn is aggressive as hell and acquires some impact arms and bats.

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

Their hitting approach is awful right now. No discipline whatsoever. Cleveland worked some deep counts against Sale which rattled him in my opinion. When the Sox were winning frequently to start the year off, they were also working deep counts; let's get back to that. *Steverson it's up to you to get their heads out of their asses -- so do your job!

 

Robin will not be fired-- ever. If he leaves, it will be after the season when his contract expires and it will be 'mutually'. (Assuming they miss the playoffs)

 

I think what we will see from now until the break is a .500 team ( 21-21). Unless, Hahn is aggressive as hell and acquires some impact arms and bats.

 

 

That puts them at 48-41. I'd gladly take that record.

[he gone.]

I'm getting closer to not being level headed ... left that game in the 6th last night. Ugly.

Now, Sale isn't going to go 30-0. I understand that. Same with Q. That's why I was hoping to get even further ahead during this stretch, because they're going to come back down to life.

 

If I'm looking for a silver lining there was that one inning where Melky, Abreu, and Lawrie laced balls back to back to back. I am just hoping Abreu starts seeing the light. He's chasing outside and getting jammed inside. We all remember how good this team can be when he goes through those stretches where he hits like 10 homers in a month. We desperately need him to snap out of this funk and put the team on his shoulders.

 

Other than that? I just look at what Trayce Thompson is doing and dream. I wish we could have included a Danish or Adams in that trade -- not that those guys won't be great -- they might be... but stick Trayce in Center or Left and Melky at DH? Man. We'd have a guy who may only hit .250, but would steal 15 bases, play great defense, and hit 15 dingers and add even more speed to the lineup. He's the exact type of player I actually want the Sox to acquire via trade.

 

 

Which leads me to my next point. I know Hahn was talking to teams earlier -- and I'm sure he's trying like hell, but with so much parody I'm sure the people he is targeting may be on teams that think they're still in the race and don't want to give their fan base a reason to quit on the team this early.

Because looking at it, theres only a handful of teams - Twins, Braves, Brewers, etc that are probably out of it this early for sure.

 

Just sucks we have to wait and see this team let everybody back in the race when I truly believe we are one bat from being the clear favorite in the division.

Letting CLE stick around is going to come back and haunt us -- especially when Carrasco and Brantley come back.

 

(sarcasm) -- but we should have just signed Uribe - that guy is always on playoff teams. He's magic. Since 2005.

 

05 Sox - We know the result

06 Sox - We were a damn good team throughout the season

07 Sox - Not so hot -- doesn't fit my theory

08 Sox - Playoffs

09 Giants - Won 88 games, just missed playoffs

10 Giants - Playoffs - was this the WS team?

11 Dodgers - Just above .500

12 Dodgers - Just missed playoffs by 2 games

13 Dodgers - playoffs

14 Dodgers - Playoffs

15 Dodgers/Mets - Playoffs

16 Indians - ??

 

In the end obviously its not him - but he is always on winning teams. People love him in the clubhouse. I miss the guy. He's been on ONE losing team since 2005

[Harry Chappas]

I want a guy to come in with a philosophy that makes sense in the modern era

 

 

[LVSoxFan]

I'm gonna be honest: I'm sad. Going into 2016, I had zero expectations, except for another crappy year of fourth-place KW-created baseball--figured I'd probably hit about five games but probably not watch any on TV as I haven't for a while.

 

But then they exploded and at the end of April I thought: OMG, is this really happening? We're neck and neck (well, almost) with the expected-World-Series-bound Cubs, first in the division, best in the AL? I'm in. I started watching on TV again. My first game was a nice win over the Twins and it just felt like a team with some zip to it.

 

That didn't last long. I realize we weren't going to keep that pace forever but damn, talk about a complete 180. And the hitting--OMG. Of course last night the moment Sale has a bad game, we're doomed.

 

My bad. I lost my objectivity and started to believe, ignoring the past years of middling KW-style average-ball.

 

That said, there are some players I really like on this team. So in the midst of all the talk of rebuild, white flag, etc., etc.--who would you guys keep? Obviously Sale and Quintana, but unlike years past, there's a few position players I think are worth holding onto this time around, hitting woes or not.

 

Of course we're not going to ship half the team out--I'm just curious if we're thinking the same thing.

 

But yes, I am sad. I was looking forward to a different season for once.

[Lip Man 1]

I want a guy to come in with a philosophy that makes sense in the modern era

 

I want a guy to come in who has had previous managerial experience at the big league level and has won...not somebody learning on the job, a complete unknown or someone who literally had to be talked into taking the job.

 

Even if such a guy isn't out there right now, that doesn't mean they won't be AND you can always try to negotiate with a team to get a manager even if he's under contract. Players have been traded for good managers in the past, one example is when Pittsburgh traded catcher Manny Sanguillen to Oakland for Chuck Tanner.

 

Mark

 

[greg775]

My bad. I lost my objectivity and started to believe, ignoring the past years of middling KW-style average-ball.

 

That said, there are some players I really like on this team. So in the midst of all the talk of rebuild, white flag, etc., etc.--who would you guys keep?

Me too. I started to believe. I was even praising Robin nightly. It's tough to say who I'd keep because basebal is changing offensively so much there aren't many guys who can hit .290 with 20 home runs anymore much less .315 with 30 dingers and 110 RBI. I don't know what's productive anymore. I guess .275 is amazingly good with 15 home runs being the standard for home runs now. Keep Sale, Abreu, Eaton, Frazier, Q, Robertson, let everybody else walk. Hey that's the same as I said last season except for Frazier being added to the good player list.

 

I want a guy to come in who has had previous managerial experience at the big league level and has won...not somebody learning on the job, a complete unknown or someone who literally had to be talked into taking the job.

 

Even if such a guy isn't out there right now, that doesn't mean they won't be AND you can always try to negotiate with a team to get a manager even if he's under contract. Players have been traded for good managers in the past, one example is when Pittsburgh traded catcher Manny Sanguillen to Oakland for Chuck Tanner.

 

Mark

We had our chance. I wanted Francona.

[harkness99]

Ventura, the coaching staff and player the last 3-4 years produce lethargic, mentally weak at bats over and over again.

 

We get different players and the same results.

 

This will never change as long as the same people are leading it.

 

The offense the past 3 years is what kills us... it puts too much pressure on everything else.

 

 

 

[SCCWS]

I want a guy to come in who has had previous managerial experience at the big league level and has won...not somebody learning on the job, a complete unknown or someone who literally had to be talked into taking the job.

 

Even if such a guy isn't out there right now, that doesn't mean they won't be AND you can always try to negotiate with a team to get a manager even if he's under contract. Players have been traded for good managers in the past, one example is when Pittsburgh traded catcher Manny Sanguillen to Oakland for Chuck Tanner.

 

Mark

 

Mark: How important is the manager. I thought hiring Robin was dumb because he had zero experience. You say you want a ML manager w a proven track record. I submit 2 current names

 

John Farrell--- was well respected pitching coach w Francona. Goes to Toronto and has 2 mediocre seasons of sub .500 baseball. Hired by Red Sox and wins World Series in first year. Next year w virtually the same team finished dead last. last year struggle again and then he is forced to leave for health problems. Interim manager comes in and Sox improve over last 2 months. Takes over this season and Red Sox at this point are playing very good baseball. My take---the team play determines his success since his career as a manager is a roller-coaster.

 

Ned Yost---manager for Brewers for 5 years w sub .500 record and no post season appearances. He is fired and hired in 2010 by Royals. In 5+ years w Royals he has a sub-500 record but a 22-9 record in postseason and a WS win.

 

Two guys who managed losing teams were rehired and have won a World Series and both are still sub 500 career managers. I think the team is much more important than the manager or his track record before he is hired.

 

[The Beast]

The White Sox are like strippers, they tease you just enough to get excited, only to leave you disappointed in the end.

[chitownsportsfan]

Get. Rid. Of. Robin.

[whitesoxjr27]

Get. Rid. Of. Robin.

Take coop with him?

[harkness99]

the pitching hasn't been that bad....

[caulfield12]

Mark: How important is the manager. I thought hiring Robin was dumb because he had zero experience. You say you want a ML manager w a proven track record. I submit 2 current names

 

John Farrell--- was well respected pitching coach w Francona. Goes to Toronto and has 2 mediocre seasons of sub .500 baseball. Hired by Red Sox and wins World Series in first year. Next year w virtually the same team finished dead last. last year struggle again and then he is forced to leave for health problems. Interim manager comes in and Sox improve over last 2 months. Takes over this season and Red Sox at this point are playing very good baseball. My take---the team play determines his success since his career as a manager is a roller-coaster.

 

Ned Yost---manager for Brewers for 5 years w sub .500 record and no post season appearances. He is fired and hired in 2010 by Royals. In 5+ years w Royals he has a sub-500 record but a 22-9 record in postseason and a WS win.

 

Two guys who managed losing teams were rehired and have won a World Series and both are still sub 500 career managers. I think the team is much more important than the manager or his track record before he is hired.

 

Yes, we've heard this before. Tony LaRussa, Jim Leyland in Colorado, Bobby Cox and Joe Torre all "looked" like bad managers before when they had crappy talent. Ozzie said this over and over and over again. Joe Girardi in Florida, etc.

 

I still would argue that sabremetrics doesn't have a clue yet how to measure the intangible/s of what separate a good manager from a great one, anymore than it can measure clubhouse chemistry/cliques.

 

Say what you want about the Twins from 2001-2010, the Tigers from 2011-2014 or the Royals really the last three seasons, they all share/d that trust/conviction/belief that they're the best team and will end up winning in the end...or simply apply constant pressure on other teams and make their opponents beat themselves, in the case of the Twins and Royals.

[caulfield12]

Mark: How important is the manager. I thought hiring Robin was dumb because he had zero experience. You say you want a ML manager w a proven track record. I submit 2 current names

 

John Farrell--- was well respected pitching coach w Francona. Goes to Toronto and has 2 mediocre seasons of sub .500 baseball. Hired by Red Sox and wins World Series in first year. Next year w virtually the same team finished dead last. last year struggle again and then he is forced to leave for health problems. Interim manager comes in and Sox improve over last 2 months. Takes over this season and Red Sox at this point are playing very good baseball. My take---the team play determines his success since his career as a manager is a roller-coaster.

 

Ned Yost---manager for Brewers for 5 years w sub .500 record and no post season appearances. He is fired and hired in 2010 by Royals. In 5+ years w Royals he has a sub-500 record but a 22-9 record in postseason and a WS win.

 

Two guys who managed losing teams were rehired and have won a World Series and both are still sub 500 career managers. I think the team is much more important than the manager or his track record before he is hired.

 

Yes, we've heard this before. Tony LaRussa, Jim Leyland in Colorado, Bobby Cox and Joe Torre all "looked" like bad managers before when they had crappy talent. Ozzie said this over and over and over again. Joe Girardi in Florida, etc.

 

I still would argue that sabremetrics doesn't have a clue yet how to measure the intangible/s of what separate a good manager from a great one, anymore than it can measure clubhouse chemistry/cliques.

 

Say what you want about the Twins from 2001-2010, the Tigers from 2011-2014 or the Royals really the last three seasons, they all share/d that trust/conviction/belief that they're the best team and will end up winning in the end...or simply apply constant pressure on other teams and make their opponents beat themselves, in the case of the Twins and Royals.

[greg775]

Yes, we've heard this before. Tony LaRussa, Jim Leyland in Colorado, Bobby Cox and Joe Torre all "looked" like bad managers before when they had crappy talent. Ozzie said this over and over and over again. Joe Girardi in Florida, etc.

 

I still would argue that sabremetrics doesn't have a clue yet how to measure the intangible/s of what separate a good manager from a great one, anymore than it can measure clubhouse chemistry/cliques.

 

Say what you want about the Twins from 2001-2010, the Tigers from 2011-2014 or the Royals really the last three seasons, they all share/d that trust/conviction/belief that they're the best team and will end up winning in the end...or simply apply constant pressure on other teams and make their opponents beat themselves, in the case of the Twins and Royals.

Sox were looking like they had "it" at 23-10. Team was rolling and rattling off win after win and winning series after series. It seems like the Sox do more "weird" stuff than most franchises. Like play 23-10 ball and start to look somewhat special then turn to complete crap. Yes it happens, but what's with the 23-10? True at that point we hadn't started playing division teams cept for the Twins. Wait til Detroit starts beating us like a drum to go with Cleveland and KC. Will interest ever be lower in a first place team than after KC kicks our ass 3 of 4 or all 4 this weekend?

Edited May 25, 2016 by greg775

[caulfield12]

We won't still be in first place if that happens, Greg.

 

We could even be a 4th place team by the end of the road trip. Interest level...approaching 2014-15 levels, with the 100,000 tickets sold in the last month mostly going unused (staying home to root for every team facing Arrieta to break that 23 game streak of consecutive wins when he starts, lol) or ending up resold for KW's 50 cents on the dollar at StubHub.