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Sox Sign Kelvin Herrera; 2 years/$18 mil, 3rd yr club option; Clarkin DFA

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5 minutes ago, The Sir said:

 

There were indicators, at the time, that Moncada had swing-and-miss issues. His K-rate was about 22% in A-ball in 2015-16, and 31% in AA in 2016.

This isn't to shit on Moncada, and again, I still have hope for him (it all lies in getting those Ks down). But why, if you're getting one of the best pitchers in baseball on a team friendly contract for several years, can you be allowed to surrender anything less than flawless? Benintendi and Devers and Mookie weren't on the table, but why?!!??! You're getting Chris Sale. Show us the fucking money!!

I just feel like we need to have higher expectations as a fan base. That's all.

Because there is no such thing as a flawless player. They all had their strengths a nod weakness. Out of 5ge group you mentioned only Moncada was considered #1. Your discussion is purely hindsight. They received an outstanding group of prospects  for Sale, but they were still prospects.

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4 minutes ago, The Sir said:

 

There were indicators, at the time, that Moncada had swing-and-miss issues. His K-rate was about 22% in A-ball in 2015-16, and 31% in AA in 2016.

This isn't to shit on Moncada, and again, I still have hope for him (it all lies in getting those Ks down). But why, if you're getting one of the best pitchers in baseball on a team friendly contract for several years, can you be allowed to surrender anything less than flawless? Benintendi and Devers and Mookie weren't on the table, but why?!!??! You're getting Chris Sale. Show us the fucking money!!

I just feel like we need to have higher expectations as a fan base. That's all.

I think Devers was on the table.  I think it was Devers or Moncada with Kopech.  Sox chose Moncada over the future 1B, and they made the right decision IMO.  Mookie was obviously not available (nor does he really fit our rebuilding timeframe) and I am not sure if Benintendi was ever available or not.  

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1 hour ago, fathom said:

Bruce seems so salty towards the Sox these days

 

There's a good reason for that. 

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17 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Three names on that list who I don't think will succeed or remain healthy. Would like to see the Sox bring in one more solid guy if they can.

Agreed, I'd like to see Ottavino signed as well but i agree there are some question marks as it currently stands with that pen but there is also some interesting minor league depth in Burr, Hamilton, Burdi, Bañuelos & Stephens

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7 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Because there is no such thing as a flawless player. They all had their strengths a nod weakness. Out of 5ge group you mentioned only Moncada was considered #1. Your discussion is purely hindsight. They received an outstanding group of prospects  for Sale, but they were still prospects.

I'll stop beating a dead horse, but it's not hindsight. The problems existed at the time. It was obvious that the dude K'ed a ton. We all knew that when we acquired him 2016, and if I hadn't been such a lurker at that time, I would have said as much. Vlad Jr, Robles, Kyle Tucker, they have all excelled in the high minors (or MLB) and their scouting reports/peripherals don't hint at underlying flaws.

But for as much as we gave up, we didn't get those types. We got Moncada and his Ks, Lopez and his likely future as a reliever (overplaying that so far- cool), Giolito and his somewhat "fall from grace", Kopech and his off-field issues, etc. The best guys we got were Eloy and Cease, who have both exploded since joining our organization. Yet, frankly, Sale and Eaton should have been good enough to acquire guys who were already playing the way those two have for the past year and a half.

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2 minutes ago, macsandz said:

He's pissed a lot of people off in recent times. 

Typically when you suck that kinda shit tends to happen.  

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16 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Because there is no such thing as a flawless player. They all had their strengths a nod weakness. Out of 5ge group you mentioned only Moncada was considered #1. Your discussion is purely hindsight. They received an outstanding group of prospects  for Sale, but they were still prospects.

And no one ever claimed that Yoan was a finished product.

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36 minutes ago, shipps said:

If the Sox sign Manny I think the narrative for all of these signings that were done prior to will totally change. 

Right now we are signing people to trade them later. If Manny signs with Sox people will not view these signings as later trade bait. 

Honestly, I don't think that's their plan.  We all agree they have a long way to go to get competitive this year but I legit think that's what they're trying to do.  Everything they've done this offseason seems to indicate that.  If their plan fails then they can fall back on the trade them for prospects idea but I legit don't think that's what they're trying to do right now.

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2 minutes ago, The Sir said:

I'll stop beating a dead horse, but it's not hindsight. The problems existed at the time. It was obvious that the dude K'ed a ton. We all knew that when we acquired him 2016, and if I hadn't been such a lurker at that time, I would have said as much. Vlad Jr, Robles, Kyle Tucker, they have all excelled in the high minors (or MLB) and their scouting reports/peripherals don't hint at underlying flaws.

But for as much as we gave up, we didn't get those types. We got Moncada and his Ks, Lopez and his likely future as a reliever (overplaying that so far- cool), Giolito and his somewhat "fall from grace", Kopech and his off-field issues, etc. The best guys we got were Eloy and Cease, who have both exploded since joining our organization. Yet, frankly, Sale and Eaton should have been good enough to acquire guys who were already playing the way those two have for the past year and a half.

This post just reeks of hindsight and odd opinions.  Moncada was literally a legit 70 FV prospect when we got him.  He has Top 5 tools in all of baseball along with a plus batters eye.  We chose him over other blue chippers (including Robles per rumors) because of his massive upside.  Just because he didn’t explode in his age 23 season doesn’t make him some sort of bust.  I don’t know why you think Lopez is a reliever, but you must not have been paying attention to him last year.  He was much better down the stretch as he got a better feel for his changeup.  Most of the reliever talk with him has been over durability concerns and he made 32 starts last year.  Talking about Kopech’s off-field issues is absurd and doesn’t change the fact he’s a top 5 pitching prospect in all of baseball with legit ace upside.  Yes, Giolito has been a huge disappointment and I’m not overly optimistic, but we all knew he was a project when we got him.  Conveniently you don’t mention Dunning (a universal top 70 prospect) and Basabe (a FG Top 100 guy), who could be both important contributors going forward.

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1 hour ago, The Sir said:

And? Does that explain his poor play the previous year? Does it explain his drop in velocity? If this is a sign of things to come, are we going to feel better when he sucks but it was just because of injuries?

I'm not trying to rant at you, but we have way too much acceptance of mediocrity in this organization, and it's why we suck constantly. To go off-topic, the Sale trade comes to mind. I have hope for Moncada still, but he was the top piece in that trade. The Red Sox were getting one of the best pitchers in baseball, and in return, we get "hey this dude has a LOT of potential but that swing-and-miss could be a fatal flaw, hope it works out for you!"

No. You're getting the best, and so are we. No flaws. You want Chris freaking Sale? You better give us someone who is as close as possible to "can't miss" as it can possibly get. Vlad Jr, Devers, Robles, whoever.

But I'm tired of us getting back less than we deserve, and then coming up with excuses, be it in trades or FA. Let's demand, and get, what we are damn well due.

we will probably have Sale, Moncada, kopech next year so will that make you happy? it would me

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The number one reason for me that last season was a hard watch was the blown leads and ruined comebacks. The additions could help us save 5-10 more wins.

 

clearly this was the most efficient way to improve the club. There is no downside in terms of blocked prospects or lost draft picks. Either he performs and we win more (yay), performs and we flip him (yay), fails and we only lose money we can afford (acceptable risk).

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This gives us a well above average pen now.  With no crazy salaries so I am happy. I wouldn't want to bring any additional BP arms in at this time.  I wanna see Burr and Frare along with others get chances 

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8 minutes ago, Rowand44 said:

Honestly, I don't think that's their plan.  We all agree they have a long way to go to get competitive this year but I legit think that's what they're trying to do.  Everything they've done this offseason seems to indicate that.  If their plan fails then they can fall back on the trade them for prospects idea but I legit don't think that's what they're trying to do right now.

Nor should they really.  We're not going to have 40 man space for more mid-tier prospects you'd acquire by trading Colome, Alonso, etc., pretty soon. 

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5 minutes ago, Colinski said:

The number one reason for me that last season was a hard watch was the blown leads and ruined comebacks. The additions could help us save 5-10 more wins.

 

clearly this was the most efficient way to improve the club. There is no downside in terms of blocked prospects or lost draft picks. Either he performs and we win more (yay), performs and we flip him (yay), fails and we only lose money we can afford (acceptable risk).

well it does include Soria's time with the team and we didn't have a lot of leads either, but we had only 19 blown saves last year compared to 53 saves. That # of blown saves was in the bottom 1/2 of the league. Our save %age wasn't great, but it basically matched the Dodgers - they just had a lot more leads late in games. 10 extra games is a lot more - we only had 5 more blown saves than the Rangers and they had the fewest in baseball and one of the highest save %ages.

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11 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

This post just reeks of hindsight and odd opinions.  Moncada was literally a legit 70 FV prospect when we got him.  He has Top 5 tools in all of baseball along with a plus batters eye.  We chose him over other blue chippers (including Robles per rumors) because of his massive upside.  Just because he didn’t explode in his age 23 season doesn’t make him some sort of bust.  I don’t know why you think Lopez is a reliever, but you must not have been paying attention to him last year.  He was much better down the stretch as he got a better feel for his changeup.  Most of the reliever talk with him has been over durability concerns and he made 32 starts last year.  Talking about Kopech’s off-field issues is absurd and doesn’t change the fact he’s a top 5 pitching prospect in all of baseball with legit ace upside.  Yes, Giolito has been a huge disappointment and I’m not overly optimistic, but we all knew he was a project when we got him.  Conveniently you don’t mention Dunning (a universal top 70 prospect) and Basabe (a FG Top 100 guy), who could be both important contributors going forward.

I think you're missing my point. Moncada had a BIG flaw. It existed at the time. It still exists. Lopez has overperformed and that's great, but the talk at the time was that he was bound to be a reliever. Another flaw. I was silly to mention Kopech's off-field stuff. I should have mentioned his walk-rates and overall rawness. Agree that Giolito is a project. Basabe K'ed 28% of the time at AA last year. Wouldn't think too highly of him, yet. Dunning has really taken off, but IIRC he was the third piece and sort of an interesting add-on.

The main point is philosophical. Chris Sale, a proven MLB ace with a team friendly contract, should return an absolute "can't miss" prospect. I've mentioned example names. What we got, AT THAT TIME (this isn't hindsight, this is all based on what was said and known THEN), was a heck of a lot of potential, IF we could work with them and mend some issues. I reject that thinking.

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7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

well it does include Soria's time with the team and we didn't have a lot of leads either, but we had only 19 blown saves last year compared to 53 saves. That # of blown saves was in the bottom 1/2 of the league. Our save %age wasn't great, but it basically matched the Dodgers - they just had a lot more leads late in games. 10 extra games is a lot more - we only had 5 more blown saves than the Rangers and they had the fewest in baseball and one of the highest save %ages.

My number includes comebacks we couldn’t complete due to continued run loss late in innings. I prob could have wrote that better.

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3 minutes ago, The Sir said:

I think you're missing my point. Moncada had a BIG flaw. It existed at the time. It still exists. Lopez has overperformed and that's great, but the talk at the time was that he was bound to be a reliever. Another flaw. I was silly to mention Kopech's off-field stuff. I should have mentioned his walk-rates and overall rawness. Agree that Giolito is a project. Basabe K'ed 28% of the time at AA last year. Wouldn't think too highly of him, yet. Dunning has really taken off, but IIRC he was the third piece and sort of an interesting add-on.

The main point is philosophical. Chris Sale, a proven MLB ace with a team friendly contract, should return an absolute "can't miss" prospect. I've mentioned example names. What we got, AT THAT TIME (this isn't hindsight, this is all based on what was said and known THEN), was a heck of a lot of potential, IF we could work with them and mend some issues. I reject that thinking.

The problem with your argument is that someone being the #1 rated prospect is about as "cant miss" as it gets. If there was some other better/cant miss prospect, why would they have been rated lower than Moncado? Its not like Moncado was in A, he was almost MLB ready. Anyone more cant miss than him was already in the majors and I believe those guys werent on the table.

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1 minute ago, Colinski said:

My number includes comebacks we couldn’t complete due to continued run loss late in innings. I prob could have wrote that better.

Our bullpen wasn't good last year, but it was a good amount better than Cleveland's for example. Unless we're going to suddenly flash into the Royals bullpen of 2014 (Herrera something something) it's not going to add 10 games. 5 win boost from the bullpen is an awful lot of luck. 

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4 minutes ago, The Sir said:

I think you're missing my point. Moncada had a BIG flaw. It existed at the time. It still exists. Lopez has overperformed and that's great, but the talk at the time was that he was bound to be a reliever. Another flaw. I was silly to mention Kopech's off-field stuff. I should have mentioned his walk-rates and overall rawness. Agree that Giolito is a project. Basabe K'ed 28% of the time at AA last year. Wouldn't think too highly of him, yet. Dunning has really taken off, but IIRC he was the third piece and sort of an interesting add-on.

The main point is philosophical. Chris Sale, a proven MLB ace with a team friendly contract, should return an absolute "can't miss" prospect. I've mentioned example names. What we got, AT THAT TIME (this isn't hindsight, this is all based on what was said and known THEN), was a heck of a lot of potential, IF we could work with them and mend some issues. I reject that thinking.

I dont remember Devers or Robles being anymore than a cant miss than Moncada at the time. You are definitely using hindsight when judging the trade. You can probably pull handful of prospects scattered throughout the league that would be pretty darn close to cant miss but the Sox couldnt have gotten them all from one team at the time. 

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6 minutes ago, The Sir said:

I think you're missing my point. Moncada had a BIG flaw. It existed at the time. It still exists. Lopez has overperformed and that's great, but the talk at the time was that he was bound to be a reliever. Another flaw. I was silly to mention Kopech's off-field stuff. I should have mentioned his walk-rates and overall rawness. Agree that Giolito is a project. Basabe K'ed 28% of the time at AA last year. Wouldn't think too highly of him, yet. Dunning has really taken off, but IIRC he was the third piece and sort of an interesting add-on.

The main point is philosophical. Chris Sale, a proven MLB ace with a team friendly contract, should return an absolute "can't miss" prospect. I've mentioned example names. What we got, AT THAT TIME (this isn't hindsight, this is all based on what was said and known THEN), was a heck of a lot of potential, IF we could work with them and mend some issues. I reject that thinking.

You wanted a can't miss prospect yet you keep talking about Devers? Have you looked at his numbers?

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32 minutes ago, Rowand44 said:

Honestly, I don't think that's their plan.  We all agree they have a long way to go to get competitive this year but I legit think that's what they're trying to do.  Everything they've done this offseason seems to indicate that.  If their plan fails then they can fall back on the trade them for prospects idea but I legit don't think that's what they're trying to do right now.

Sox absolutely will not be competitive this season unless they made significant rotation changes/dramatic improvement

Rodon, Giolito, Nova, Lopez, Covey? is not a playoff caliber rotation, and might be one of the worst in the MLB

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7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Our bullpen wasn't good last year, but it was a good amount better than Cleveland's for example. Unless we're going to suddenly flash into the Royals bullpen of 2014 (Herrera something something) it's not going to add 10 games. 5 win boost from the bullpen is an awful lot of luck. 

What you seem to be talking about here (please correct me if I am wrong) is wins in reference to WAR (or similar stat)

I’m not claiming Herrera and Colome will be 5-10 win players. I’m suggesting the improved bullpen is the most efficient way of gaining more wins.

Edited by Colinski

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7 minutes ago, The Sir said:

I think you're missing my point. Moncada had a BIG flaw. It existed at the time. It still exists. Lopez has overperformed and that's great, but the talk at the time was that he was bound to be a reliever. Another flaw. I was silly to mention Kopech's off-field stuff. I should have mentioned his walk-rates and overall rawness. Agree that Giolito is a project. Basabe K'ed 28% of the time at AA last year. Wouldn't think too highly of him, yet. Dunning has really taken off, but IIRC he was the third piece and sort of an interesting add-on.

The main point is philosophical. Chris Sale, a proven MLB ace with a team friendly contract, should return an absolute "can't miss" prospect. I've mentioned example names. What we got, AT THAT TIME (this isn't hindsight, this is all based on what was said and known THEN), was a heck of a lot of potential, IF we could work with them and mend some issues. I reject that thinking.

Let me ask you this, but what “can’t miss” prospects have been traded over the last few years?  I went back to 2015, and the only prospects who were ever ranked in the top 10 by Baseball America who have been traded are Moncada, Jimenez, Giolito, J.P. Crawford, & Meadows.  And only Yoan & Eloy were still top 10 guys when they were traded, the rest had already lost luster and/or were post hype acquisitions.  Teams just don’t give up “can’t miss” prospects typically and I’d argue Moncada still warrants that billing even if his contact issues end up limiting his ceiling a bit.

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