White Sox will keep trying Collins as a C

[southsider2k5]

Isn't a .700 OPS C considered good and a borderline starter? Because that doesn't seem like an impossible line for him, maybe something like .270/.340/.360, which doesn't seem implausible. Combine that with good D and framing, and I think he's at least worth a look. Worst case, he gets you closer to the #1 overall pick in 2018.

 

His career MiLB number is .689 so that isn't a crazy number. In 2016 the AL's average C put up an OPS of .681, the NL .722 for a league average of .701. In 2015 the AL average was .676, the NL .686 for an MLB average of .681.

 

In other words if Narvaez can put up a .650 to .675 OPS, he would be slightly under league average, or probably in line with a typical back up catcher around MLB.

[NorthSideSox72]

His career MiLB number is .689 so that isn't a crazy number. In 2016 the AL's average C put up an OPS of .681, the NL .722 for a league average of .701. In 2015 the AL average was .676, the NL .686 for an MLB average of .681.

 

In other words if Narvaez can put up a .650 to .675 OPS, he would be slightly under league average, or probably in line with a typical back up catcher around MLB.

And I'm guessing, pure guess here, that a .260/.330/.330 line is a likely output for Narvaez, under the assumption he's in a platoon and facing RHP almost all the time. In 2013-2015, he was much better as an LHB against RHP, than either way against LHP, hitting .275 to .319 against RHP in that timeframe. 2016 was an aberration, his splits were reversed but that was maybe a small sample size issue. A .260/.330/.330 line is probably above average for a backup or platoon C in MLB.

 

[tray]

What difference does it make who catches if the goal is to tank the season, lose more games than any other team, and try for the top Draft pick?

[Feeky Magee]

What difference does it make who catches if the goal is to tank the season, lose more games than any other team, and try for the top Draft pick?

Well another goal of rebuilding is to gain prospects by trading your valuable MLB pieces. If Nate Jones has a 3.30 ERA when he should really have a 2.15 because we have a butcher receiving pitches, then that makes us less likely to gain more valuable prospects. In addition to this, we're likely to see a number of talented young pitchers make their debuts. If we have them throwing to a Navarro-type receiver, they are more likely to learn bad habits such as starting to pitch more towards the centre of the strike zone, habits which could cost the Sox in the future.

[tray]

Read this.

 

http://www.southsidesox.com/2016/5/14/1167...ersonal-catcher

 

Trust me, it's important.

 

I get the point. However, Navarro won't be behind the plate.

 

The desire to maximize performance of a starter is somewhat at odds with the tank-to-rebuild strategy.

I'm not sure how that is reconciled. Rodon goes 18-8 but Shields goes 4-18? If the goal is to lose, you lose, any way you can.

This Cub-style rebuild is what some of you wanted. Blow it up, right?

 

 

[Al Lopez's Ghost]

I get the point. However, Navarro won't be behind the plate.

 

The desire to maximize performance of a starter is somewhat at odds with the tank-to-rebuild strategy.

I'm not sure how that is reconciled. Rodon goes 18-8 but Shields goes 4-18? If the goal is to lose, you lose, any way you can.

This Cub-style rebuild is what some of you wanted. Blow it up, right?

I think you would still want your valued assets, of which Rodon is likely exhibit A, to develop their skills. A solid receiver would be invaluable for that, and would not impede the race for the bottom too much.

[Donaldo]

Smith has a stronger arm and is more athletic, but mechanically he's still pretty rough and not a great receiver. Pitchers like working with him though, he's very good on that front. How good his receiving skills can get will dictate his future. There is some offensive potential, but the bat isn't quick and I am not sure he can make enough contact. He does draw some walks and has some raw power. But he's going to be 29 in 2017, so there really isn't a lot of projection left, like there is with Narvaez.

 

My view is, bring in a veteran to platoon with Narvaez, who I think is more likely to be a major league-caliber catcher than Smith.

 

I was quite impressed with the strength and accuracy of Smith's arm.

 

But I think he will ultimately go the way of Donny Lucy.

[caulfield12]

The "tank-to-rebuild" strategy as you call it is a very poor interpretation of what the Sox are trying to accomplish.

 

The goal is not to lose. That wasn't the Cubs goal, and it isn't the Sox goal.

 

The difference between the goals of the 2016 White Sox and the 2017 White Sox is more about development than anything else.

 

The Sox goal is not to obtain the #1 draft pick. The baseball draft is so much more of a crap-shoot than any other draft, the goal is to continue to develop the young talent within the organization. Have them take steps in the right direction. Would it be an added benefit for the Sox to obtain a Top 3 pick? Sure, but that isn't the objective.

 

And in the specific case of Rodon, his develop is VITAL to the success of this franchise. In my eyes, getting a quality backstop to anchor the rotation someone to guide Rodon and others is vital in the development process.

 

 

OTOH, we've seen numerous studies showing a HUGE difference in career WAR from the Top 3 picks in the draft, compared to say Picks #8-10.

 

The especially hard part of this might be the race to the bottom from the Royals/Tigers (especially after this season) and if Buxton/Sano/Berrios don't break out, you've suddenly got 57 "very winnable games" (a disproportionate affect from the AL Central) for the 2018 Chicago White Sox. The obvious plus is the path back to second place isn't hard...but then you have to deal with the loaded AL East and AL West and even the Angels can't be down forever as long as Trout is healthy.

 

To summarize, the Cubs aren't the World Series-winning Cubs without Kris Bryant. You need to get AT LEAST one impact/superstar position player from the 2017/18/19 drafts, and, IDEALLY, TWO MORE. With luck, we already have ONE in Collins, AND ANOTHER in Moncada, but the jury's still out.

Edited December 30, 2016 by caulfield12

[Con te Giolito]

Its pretty clear the Sox goal is to build a pitching Death Star by 2019 and hope that Moncada, Abreu (I think he's here for life), Collins, Anderson and whoever else they can develop by that time will provide enough defense to make the pitchers job easy and just enough offense to score 3 or 4 runs with some regularity. Of course the glue of that kind of team will be the battery, and they will need to find 2, possibly 3, good (defensively at least) catchers to man it.

 

There's really no time to waste finding those catchers.

[hi8is]

just enough offense to score 3 or 4 runs with some regularity

Shoot higher, you must

[steveno89]

Its pretty clear the Sox goal is to build a pitching Death Star by 2019 and hope that Moncada, Abreu (I think he's here for life), Collins, Anderson and whoever else they can develop by that time will provide enough defense to make the pitchers job easy and just enough offense to score 3 or 4 runs with some regularity. Of course the glue of that kind of team will be the battery, and they will need to find 2, possibly 3, good (defensively at least) catchers to man it.

 

There's really no time to waste finding those catchers.

 

The proverbial pitching death star still has a long way to go and still needs offense to back it up.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

The proverbial pitching death star still has a long way to go and still needs offense to back it up.

 

Our offense is more like a bunch of stormtroopers trying to defend the death star.

[Bob Sacamano]

Our offense is more like a bunch of stormtroopers trying to defend the death star.

 

On the subject of stormtroopers, what's the point of their armor when it doesn't stop anything? Maybe the helmets are why they miss most of their shots lol

[OmarComing25]

On the subject of stormtroopers, what's the point of their armor when it doesn't stop anything? Maybe the helmets are why they miss most of their shots lol

The blasters in Star Wars are able to obliterate concrete and create huge craters in metal surfaces, I don't think there's much armor that can protect against that. And are we sure they're always killed when hit? Maybe they're just stunned or knocked out.

[bmags]

Jim Margulis keeps advocating for trading for Caleb Joseph from Baltimore. I wonder what that would take. Thought being

[Bob Sacamano]

The blasters in Star Wars are able to obliterate concrete and create huge craters in metal surfaces, I don't think there's much armor that can protect against that. And are we sure they're always killed when hit? Maybe they're just stunned or knocked out.

 

Good theory. I'll buy it.

[oldsox]

Jim Margulis keeps advocating for trading for Caleb Joseph from Baltimore. I wonder what that would take. Thought being

Sounds like a religious leader.

[Al Lopez's Ghost]

Sounds like a religious leader.

The rebuild requires a certain amount of faith.

[reiks12]

I skimmed the thread. Is there any information on his pitch framing skills?

[GreenSox]

OTOH, we've seen numerous studies showing a HUGE difference in career WAR from the Top 3 picks in the draft, compared to say Picks #8-10.

The odds of hitting a superstar in picks 1-3, while higher than 8-10, are still low.

Sitting down there to await one player is not a sound approach to building a team.

[Balta1701]

I skimmed the thread. Is there any information on his pitch framing skills?

I have never seen anyone guess about how to gauge where minor leaguers are in terms of that.

[southsider2k5]

Cool gif of Collins working behind the plate. Maybe a framing exercise?

 

https://twitter.com/whitesox/status/819267851043438592

[Dick Allen]

I believe framing is a real stat unlike some, but I do wonder if it gets to a point where an umpire will see a catcher always posting good framing numbers, and start to use it against him. They are human. I am sure they see these lists. If Tyler Flowers always gets balls called strikes, couldn't it eventually lead to an umpire calling what he considers borderline pitches thrown to him balls because they figured his framing has given them an illusion?

[bmags]

I believe framing is a real stat unlike some, but I do wonder if it gets to a point where an umpire will see a catcher always posting good framing numbers, and start to use it against him. They are human. I am sure they see these lists. If Tyler Flowers always gets balls called strikes, couldn't it eventually lead to an umpire calling what he considers borderline pitches thrown to him balls because they figured his framing has given them an illusion?

 

On the flip side of this, there were articles this year that this has actually gotten a lot better league wide so it's likely that teams focus on it and eliminate the variance. Umpires would probably prefer a smoothing out of catching styles.

 

The white sox were the huge low end, but as a whole the distance between best and worst has tightened, one of the reasons you see Lucroy go from amazing to average.

[shipps]

Scott Merkin ‏@scottmerkin 22m22 minutes ago

Todd Steverson on Zack Collins: "That looks like a nice No. 1 pick for us,"