5 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

Wainwright is as good a gamble as any of the other flyers/trades that have been made recently.

All he needs to do is give them innings. 

 

 

Then at some point this team needs to get a deal done, because the number of names available is dropping quite quickly now.

23 hours ago, Rounding_Third said:

Not the same scenario.  StL claims they want him back and have proven it by making him an offer, albeit an unknown $.  Lester didn't play his entire career with Cubs. 15 seasons for Wainwright in Stl carries a heck of a lot of good will.   

Wainwright was also good last season(sample size I know) and Lester wasn't so there is a difference here.  Saint Louis is cheap as hell but not bringing him back for 5 or 6 mill makes 0 sense.

Why is it that if the Sox don't get in ahead of everyone else and land someone, they wind up behind everyone else?

18 hours ago, kleedawg said:

Edwardsville

I have great memories of visiting the inlaws in Belleville and at night going out to demand in Chicago bruiser fashion that they put on WGNA/White Sox at 313/Big Daddy's

26 minutes ago, SpringfieldFan said:

Why is it that if the Sox don't get in ahead of everyone else and land someone, they wind up behind everyone else?

They start the offseason behind everyone else, targeting the 2nd and 3rd and 4th tier options as their 1st tier options.  This is how.

51 minutes ago, SpringfieldFan said:

Why is it that if the Sox don't get in ahead of everyone else and land someone, they wind up behind everyone else?

They win when they want to win.

I am thinking the White Sox overplayed their hand in the pitching market thinking they had a deal done with the Brewers.. No way they just missed on Quintana at that price, and decide to go after Wainwright for 2 million less.. no way. They had to have messed up

7 hours ago, bmags said:

He’s talking about the cardinals.

Yes, and I'm pointing out why the Sox have had one window where they were consistently competitive, whereas the Cardinals are typically competitive year in and out, despite similar payrolls.

Chicago White Sox Average Drafted fWAR (Total fWAR drafted / # of GM seasons)

• 1971-1985 (Roland Hemond): 12.9
• 1986 (Hawk Harrelson): 2.2
• 1987-1990 (Larry Himes): 63.4
• 1991-2000 (Ron Schueler): 13.3
• 2001-2012 (Kenny Williams): 15.6
• 2013-2020 (Rick Hahn): Drafted 15 total fWAR over first four drafts (2013-2016).

Saint Louis Cardinals Average Drafted fWAR (Total fWAR drafted / # of GM seasons)

• 1985-1994 Dal Maxvill 22.5
• 1995-2007 Walt Jocketty 33.5
• 2008-2012 John Mozeliak 23.4 (Same cutoff as Hahn - John drafted 49.4 total fWAR and counting (2013-2016).

Between the Cubans and improvements since Hahn's revamp of the scouting the past few seasons, there is reason for optimism the White Sox can compete consistently.

They still need to improve with developing catchers / position players. I'm hopeful Katz will pay significant dividends on the pitching side. Giolito is the primary success story the past decade, and he had to reach outside of the organization to do so.

6 hours ago, YourWhatHurts said:

They start the offseason behind everyone else, targeting the 2nd and 3rd and 4th tier options as their 1st tier options.  This is how.

I'm not sure what you mean...they landed Lance Lynn who is by almost any measure a top ten pitcher in baseball.  Their starting rotation is Gio, Dallas, Lynn (5-6-7 in Cy Young voting), Cease and Kopek/Crochett...with Lopez reclamation if anyone is hurt.    Why is that bad?   Which one of those guys do you want to take away starts from to give it to Quintana?  Why would Quintana or Wainwright want to sign here with Kopech waiting in the wings?  

25 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm not sure what you mean...they landed Lance Lynn who is by almost any measure a top ten pitcher in baseball.  Their starting rotation is Gio, Dallas, Lynn (5-6-7 in Cy Young voting), Cease and Kopek/Crochett...with Lopez reclamation if anyone is hurt.    Why is that bad?   Which one of those guys do you want to take away starts from to give it to Quintana?  Why would Quintana or Wainwright want to sign here with Kopech waiting in the wings?  

Lynn trade was an upgrade from a current spot... for one year. Lynn is old and will likely regress.

Dallas Keuchel is almost guranteed to regress strongly. 

Cease is a complete question mark.

Kopech won't throw more than like 80 innings next year and for all intents and purposes should be counted OUT of our rotation for 2021.

Lopez flat out sucks.

Giolito is an ace.

Rotation is one of the better ones in the AL, but that's not saying anything TBH. It's one Gio injury away from being useless.

32 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said:

Lynn trade was an upgrade from a current spot... for one year. Lynn is old and will likely regress.

Dallas Keuchel is almost guranteed to regress strongly. 

Cease is a complete question mark.

Kopech won't throw more than like 80 innings next year and for all intents and purposes should be counted OUT of our rotation for 2021.

Lopez flat out sucks.

Giolito is an ace.

Rotation is one of the better ones in the AL, but that's not saying anything TBH. It's one Gio injury away from being useless in addition to complete regression for Lynn and DK, and no youth development at all.

I fixed this for you. 

Edited January 26, 20215 yr by SonofaRoache

33 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said:

Lynn trade was an upgrade from a current spot... for one year. Lynn is old and will likely regress.

Dallas Keuchel is almost guranteed to regress strongly. 

Cease is a complete question mark.

Kopech won't throw more than like 80 innings next year and for all intents and purposes should be counted OUT of our rotation for 2021.

Lopez flat out sucks.

Giolito is an ace.

Rotation is one of the better ones in the AL, but that's not saying anything TBH. It's one Gio injury away from being useless.

With the options left, Tanaka or bust.

46 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said:

Lynn trade was an upgrade from a current spot... for one year. Lynn is old and will likely regress.

Dallas Keuchel is almost guranteed to regress strongly. 

Cease is a complete question mark.

Kopech won't throw more than like 80 innings next year and for all intents and purposes should be counted OUT of our rotation for 2021.

Lopez flat out sucks.

Giolito is an ace.

Rotation is one of the better ones in the AL, but that's not saying anything TBH. It's one Gio injury away from being useless.

Just so I'm clear...Lynn will regress, Dallas will regress...but Wainwright and Quintana are fine?   Kopech 80 innings/Crochett 80 innings...Kopech 3 at a time followed by Crochett as they stretch out there arms...160 innings...or 160 innings of Wainwright?   

1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Just so I'm clear...Lynn will regress, Dallas will regress...but Wainwright and Quintana are fine?   Kopech 80 innings/Crochett 80 innings...Kopech 3 at a time followed by Crochett as they stretch out there arms...160 innings...or 160 innings of Wainwright?   

No, you are not clear. 

I am not an advocate for garbage like Quintana or Wainwright. However, I can admit that it would be a moderately smart move to deepen our rotation by adding both of them.

There's no doubt that our White Sox need to deepen their rotation. The question is are they going to do it the garbage way by picking up one of these low end free agents and utilizing ReyLo early on or are they going to go out and get quality. 

 

3 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm not sure what you mean...they landed Lance Lynn who is by almost any measure a top ten pitcher in baseball.  Their starting rotation is Gio, Dallas, Lynn (5-6-7 in Cy Young voting), Cease and Kopek/Crochett...with Lopez reclamation if anyone is hurt.    Why is that bad?   Which one of those guys do you want to take away starts from to give it to Quintana?  Why would Quintana or Wainwright want to sign here with Kopech waiting in the wings?  

If Lynn is a top-10 pitcher you're just looking at the last 2 years of his career.  And he's still at the bottom of that list.  I think you all have been duped.  He's a mid-rotation starter and that is all.

Keuchel is primed for regression IMO.  Very primed and ready.  

With Kopech starting in the minors, they don't currently have a 5th starter.  More than anything else, the lack of a 5th starter sank the Sox in their playoff hopes for much of the period that existed between the end of their last full rebuild which ended in 2000 and today.  Still no 5th starter in 2021.

Crochet will be in the pen if he's on the team at all.  Lopez needs a personal assistant at this point; he won't be in the rotation unless the Sox just do nothing at all, and don't even add a half-warm body like Wainwright.

I'm not sure about Q but Wainwright, if he wants to pitch, isn't going to be anybody's ideal option.  He's in that stage where he will have to be prepared to play for his spot if he wants one.  I can definitely see why Q didn't sign here though.

Edited January 26, 20215 yr by YourWhatHurts

4 minutes ago, YourWhatHurts said:

If Lynn is a top-10 pitcher you're just looking at the last 2 years of his career.  And he's still at the bottom of that list.  I think you all have been duped.  He's a mid-rotation starter and that is all.

Keuchel is primed for regression IMO.  Very primed and ready.  

With Kopech starting in the minors, they don't currently have a 5th starter.  More than anything else, the lack of a 5th starter sank the Sox in their playoff hopes for much of the period that existed between the end of their last full rebuild which ended in 2000 and today.  Still no 5th starter in 2021.

Crochet will be in the pen if he's on the team at all.  Lopez needs a personal assistant at this point; he won't be in the rotation unless the Sox just do nothing at all, and don't even add a half-warm body like Wainwright.

I'm not sure about Q but Wainwright, if he wants to pitch, isn't going to be anybody's ideal option.  He's in that stage where he will have to be prepared to play for his spot if he wants one.  I can definitely see why Q didn't sign here though.

Why do you continue use career stats to evaluate pitchers nowadays?  Guys can change for the better on a whim and that’s what has happened with Lynn.  If you’ve watched him pitch over the past 2 1/2 years, you’d realize he’s much better than a mid rotation starter.

Some information regarding Wainwright in this tweet/chat. Sounds like a resolution could be coming this week.

https://mobile.twitter.com/StlCrdsfn11/status/1354059630188654601

4 hours ago, fathom said:

Some information regarding Wainwright in this tweet/chat. Sounds like a resolution could be coming this week.

https://mobile.twitter.com/StlCrdsfn11/status/1354059630188654601

Who would you rather have:  Wainwright at 1yr/$6M or Jon Gray + a prospect at 1yr/$6M?

Just now, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Who would you rather have:  Wainwright at 1yr/$6M or Jon Gray + a prospect at 1yr/$6M?

But what would we be losing in the Gray + prospect trade? That's not a full equation to compare to Wainwright that doesn't cost a player.

1 minute ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Who would you rather have:  Wainwright at 1yr/$6M or Jon Gray + a prospect at 1yr/$6M?

Gray personally, I'd like to see what he can do outside of Coors. 

1 minute ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Who would you rather have:  Wainwright at 1yr/$6M or Jon Gray + a prospect at 1yr/$6M?

I feel like this was asked in a way to make one option appear far better, but honestly, Wainwright. I like the certainty he provides over Gray, who I could easily see being either complete garbage or injured 

3 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

I feel like this was asked in a way to make one option appear far better, but honestly, Wainwright. I like the certainty he provides over Gray, who I could easily see being either complete garbage or injured 

If you’re getting Gray and a prospect, you’re probably trading someone you don’t want to lose.

18 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Who would you rather have:  Wainwright at 1yr/$6M or Jon Gray + a prospect at 1yr/$6M?

Depends who the prospects is.. But Gray would be far an away a better choice for me straight up.

11 minutes ago, fathom said:

If you’re getting Gray and a prospect, you’re probably trading someone you don’t want to lose.

I may have worded that wrong.  They have to give up a prospect for Gray.

12 minutes ago, fathom said:

If you’re getting Gray and a prospect, you’re probably trading someone you don’t want to lose.

Gray and Rodgers for Madrigal and Stiever