Mike Clevinger under investigation for domestic violence

[Tnetennba]

1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

That's in the back of my mind, too, and that thought is what's keeping from making a strong statement about it. I can ABSOLUTELY see this clown show conclude that the "official league recommendation" of standing pat until it blows over is going to be fine for the general public.

After pretending like the TLR DUI didn’t happen I don’t have high hopes here.  What they should do and what they end up doing feel vastly different to me on this one.  It would be nice to know that my favorite baseball team actually gives a s%*# about DV, but again, hopes aren’t high. 

[Dick Allen]

What I think will happen is Clevinger will be put on some sort of leave, he will get suspended eventually,who knows for how long. I would think not as long as Bauer not as short as Ozuna. When his suspension is over, the Sox will release him and try every legal mean possible not to give him a dime, which is perfectly acceptable to me.

But you never know. The Braves have kept Ozuna around through a wife beating in front of cops and a DUI. But he has multiple years on the contract.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Dick Allen

[Chisoxfn]

On 1/29/2023 at 8:04 AM, Dick Allen said:

What I think will happen is Clevinger will be put on some sort of leave, he will get suspended eventually,who knows for how long. I would think not as long as Bauer not as short as Ozuna. When his suspension is over, the Sox will release him and try every legal mean possible not to give him a dime, which is perfectly acceptable to me.

But you never know. The Braves have kept Ozuna around through a wife beating in front of cops and a DUI. But he has multiple years on the contract.

I think the above is exactly what will happen.

[raBBit]

I think Clevinger gets 20-40 games and is pitching for the Sox by the end of May.

Looking at his case compared to other recent DV incidents, he is not being charged criminally, he is not being pursued civilly, he was not put on administrative leave shortly after the investigation was opened and there are no witnesses to the incident being investigated.  It is just a case of he said, she said between (former) partners. When the league has had evidence to the severity of a given DV investigation recently, they have quickly acted putting players on administrative leave (including and not limited to Ozuna, Bauer, German and Carlos Martinez). Clevinger has already pitched for months since this investigation was opened.

The most comparable case to me would be Addison Russell and in Russell's case, he took accountability for the allegations made against him. Of course things can change, but as of now, Clevinger's camp is denying the accusations. 

It is pretty hard to investigate this if you're the MLB (no authorities to cooperate, operating on testimonial evidence almost exclusively) and pretty difficult to punish if you're the Sox (per the DV policy, the MLB is supposed to levy punishment and the team has to consider the possibility for the a grievance from the union).

Hopefully this stuff wraps up soon as the MLB has already had over half a year to investigation and to hopefully stop this from being a distraction to the team.  

Edited January 30, 2023 by raBBit

[scotty22hotty]

the main difference is he's being accused of child abuse. you don't recover from that.

If he's suspended the Sox should void the contract (violated 7(b)1 of the players contract) wait for the grievance then handle it with arbitration or a settlement. If the union wants to stand behind child abusers then so be it...

Plus is there even precedence for a team unknowingly signing a player that's being investigated by the MLB?

[flavum]

I guess time will tell, but I don’t think there’s a chance in hell he throws a pitch in a Sox uniform. 

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, flavum said:

I guess time will tell, but I don’t think there’s a chance in hell he throws a pitch in a Sox uniform. 

Agreed. 

[he gone.]

2 hours ago, raBBit said:

I think Clevinger gets 20-40 games and is pitching for the Sox by the end of May.

Looking at his case compared to other recent DV incidents, he is not being charged criminally, he is not being pursued civilly, he was not put on administrative leave shortly after the investigation was opened and there are no witnesses to the incident being investigated.  It is just a case of he said, she said between (former) partners. When the league has had evidence to the severity of a given DV investigation recently, they have quickly acted putting players on administrative leave (including and not limited to Ozuna, Bauer, German and Carlos Martinez). Clevinger has already pitched for months since this investigation was opened.

The most comparable case to me would be Addison Russell and in Russell's case, he took accountability for the allegations made against him. Of course things can change, but as of now, Clevinger's camp is denying the accusations. 

It is pretty hard to investigate this if you're the MLB (no authorities to cooperate, operating on testimonial evidence almost exclusively) and pretty difficult to punish if you're the Sox (per the DV policy, the MLB is supposed to levy punishment and the team has to consider the possibility for the a grievance from the union).

Hopefully this stuff wraps up soon as the MLB has already had over half a year to investigation and to hopefully stop this from being a distraction to the team.  

That's probably the level-headed answer and outcome. 

Have a feeling him pitching for the Sox comes down to financial decision for Sox brass. Aka, lose $12mm just cutting him loose, the losses as result of having no #5 pitcher and no depth resulting in a worse record, less ticket sales, etc. versus retaining him, pissing off a fan base, maybe losing ticket sales, bad PR, etc. etc. 

I'd be shocked if the Sox make a decision on any moral ground, at the end of the day it'll be a money equation. 

[caulfield12]

30 minutes ago, he gone. said:

That's probably the level-headed answer and outcome. 

Have a feeling him pitching for the Sox comes down to financial decision for Sox brass. Aka, lose $12mm just cutting him loose, the losses as result of having no #5 pitcher and no depth resulting in a worse record, less ticket sales, etc. versus retaining him, pissing off a fan base, maybe losing ticket sales, bad PR, etc. etc. 

I'd be shocked if the Sox make a decision on any moral ground, at the end of the day it'll be a money equation. 

Except they consistently underestimate the long-term costs of short-term oriented profitability.

The brand is eroding by the year now with the rebuild failing.

Putting profits over what's best for the clubhouse is how we ended up with so many chemistry issues in the first place over the last couple of decades of Sox baseball.

[pcq]

3 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

I think the above is exactly what will happen.

He is looking at a half season suspension. Her baby daddy loses some paychecks. 

[ChiSox59]

2 hours ago, raBBit said:

I think Clevinger gets 20-40 games and is pitching for the Sox by the end of May.

Looking at his case compared to other recent DV incidents, he is not being charged criminally, he is not being pursued civilly, he was not put on administrative leave shortly after the investigation was opened and there are no witnesses to the incident being investigated.  It is just a case of he said, she said between (former) partners. When the league has had evidence to the severity of a given DV investigation recently, they have quickly acted putting players on administrative leave (including and not limited to Ozuna, Bauer, German and Carlos Martinez). Clevinger has already pitched for months since this investigation was opened.

The most comparable case to me would be Addison Russell and in Russell's case, he took accountability for the allegations made against him. Of course things can change, but as of now, Clevinger's camp is denying the accusations. 

It is pretty hard to investigate this if you're the MLB (no authorities to cooperate, operating on testimonial evidence almost exclusively) and pretty difficult to punish if you're the Sox (per the DV policy, the MLB is supposed to levy punishment and the team has to consider the possibility for the a grievance from the union).

Hopefully this stuff wraps up soon as the MLB has already had over half a year to investigation and to hopefully stop this from being a distraction to the team.  

I don’t see how Clevinger in camp wouldn’t be a pretty significant distraction, at least initially. Also cannot image that multiple guys on the team will take major issues with the allegations. It’s just messy. 

I don’t think Sox should release him because I think they’ll get some of that $8M back if they don’t, and I’d rather they have that $ to invest elsewhere. But I also don’t really want him in camp. 

[raBBit]

1 hour ago, scotty22hotty said:

the main difference is he's being accused of child abuse. you don't recover from that.

If he's suspended the Sox should void the contract (violated 7(b)1 of the players contract) wait for the grievance then handle it with arbitration or a settlement. If the union wants to stand behind child abusers then so be it...

Plus is there even precedence for a team unknowingly signing a player that's being investigated by the MLB?

I don't believe so because typically these incidences often come as a result of a public encounter or a result of the victim trying to secure their own safety. Also, there could be more incidents like Clevinger's that never went public and the MLB never ultimately decided to rule on a punishment. The only reason we know of Clevinger's incident is because his ex just recently consented to the media reporting on the story. 

1 hour ago, flavum said:

I guess time will tell, but I don’t think there’s a chance in hell he throws a pitch in a Sox uniform. 

Sox have made two made moves in the offseason. I can't imagine Reinsdorf just throwing away one of them and paying for it when he didn't allow any adds away from Clevinger and Benintendi.

If you look at all of the recent domestic violence incidents in MLB, provided that the player is still MLB quality, they have almost always received another shot. The exceptions are Bauer and Sam Dyson. While Bauer is probably too early to say I am assuming he'll get the Manfred blackball and Sam Dyson's case had firearms involved in addition to physical, emotional and sexual abuse in his case. Plus Dyson had issues in his past prior to the DV incident and he was an older reliever. 

Otherwise, German, Urias, Odubel Herrera, Russell, Osuna, Steven Wright, Familia, Jose Reyes, Chapman, etc. all returned to their teams and played after serving their suspensions. There really is no precedent for a team releasing a player after a suspension past Bauer.

Edited January 30, 2023 by raBBit

[raBBit]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I don’t see how Clevinger in camp wouldn’t be a pretty significant distraction, at least initially. Also cannot image that multiple guys on the team will take major issues with the allegations. It’s just messy. 

I don’t think Sox should release him because I think they’ll get some of that $8M back if they don’t, and I’d rather they have that $ to invest elsewhere. But I also don’t really want him in camp. 

How would he be a distraction? Past being an issue the media will talk about that has nothing to do with baseball. 

At this point, the Sox cannot release him (by rule) and they guaranteed him 12M this season with his contract being structured to be a value in 2024 if he pitches well in 2023. They will get some fraction of the $12M back depending on his suspension. If he gets 25 games that's ~$1.7M in savings. I would be surprised if the Sox cut him following a suspension like that and then just ate $10M with a hole in the back of the rotation and no viable replacements on the market. It's not as if A.) they can project accurately what the potential savings will and B.) they could effectively replace him.

Now if more comes out with this story and the MLB gives him an 81 game suspension, I could see Reinsdorf cutting him lose and making some empty statement via Hahn/Reifert that the organization that has employed and acquired several confirmed domestic abusers during his ownership is above domestic violence. 

[raBBit]

The dichotomy between the NFL and MLB is interesting. NFL has multiple guys that are stars and huge names in the game that have domestic violence in their past and it is just forgiven. I mean Watson had like 20+ accusers against him and the Browns gave him 250M+ or whatever it was. They made an example of Ray Rice because Goodell got caught lying but past that, DV is nothing more than just a blurb on theses guys' wiki pages once they serve their punishment.

[caulfield12]

Derek Norris in 2017.

https://fansided.com/2022/04/29/longest-suspensions-major-league-baseball-history/

 

(Oh, what would they make of Chuck Finley and Tawny Kitaen today...?

No longer a laughing matter culturally like it was back then.  Of course, he was 6'7" too.)

[raBBit]

Norris was the prior CBA / DV policy. He was released because he was suspended in September for the remainder of his contract / season. He hit .195 in 2016 & 2017. He was signed by the Tigers a couple months later and released in Spring Training after not making the team. He got another shot. 

[caulfield12]

15 minutes ago, raBBit said:

The dichotomy between the NFL and MLB is interesting. NFL has multiple guys that are stars and huge names in the game that have domestic violence in their past and it is just forgiven. I mean Watson had like 20+ accusers against him and the Browns gave him 250M+ or whatever it was. They made an example of Ray Rice because Goodell got caught lying but past that, DV is nothing more than just a blurb on theses guys' wiki pages once they serve their punishment.

Well, it seems you are making the argument white players are being targeted now and African-American and Spanish players seemingly are not, at least to the same extent.

Of course, it basically cost Addison Russell his career.

All that said, having lived in Colombia for a year, there's a sense of entitlement for the machismo culture that predominates in a number of Caribbean, Latin and South American countries.  Men (especially athletes) used to get a free pass from society...that's slowly changing.  Slowly.

I saw this recent case on my feed (former Astros' Venezuelan AA prospect dating back to 2016, half expected a White Sox history) and couldn't believe the sense of raw entitlement.  Like he was shooing away a fly.

https://www.kaotic.com/video/eade1ec8_20230127171821_t

(Graphic violence.  Not for faint of heart.)

Edited January 30, 2023 by caulfield12

[ChiSox59]

54 minutes ago, raBBit said:

How would he be a distraction? Past being an issue the media will talk about that has nothing to do with baseball. 

At this point, the Sox cannot release him (by rule) and they guaranteed him 12M this season with his contract being structured to be a value in 2024 if he pitches well in 2023. They will get some fraction of the $12M back depending on his suspension. If he gets 25 games that's ~$1.7M in savings. I would be surprised if the Sox cut him following a suspension like that and then just ate $10M with a hole in the back of the rotation and no viable replacements on the market. It's not as if A.) they can project accurately what the potential savings will and B.) they could effectively replace him.

Now if more comes out with this story and the MLB gives him an 81 game suspension, I could see Reinsdorf cutting him lose and making some empty statement via Hahn/Reifert that the organization that has employed and acquired several confirmed domestic abusers during his ownership is above domestic violence. 

I mean, I would hope some of the guys have a problem with sharing a locker room with a guy that pushed around his gf and throws/pours chew spit at his infant child….

and yes, I agree that they cannot just release him until the league has spoken. But do think they should tell him to not bother coming to camp if there isn’t a resolution in the next couple weeks, or ask the league to put him on administrative leave while they continue to sort it out. 

[raBBit]

30 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Well, it seems you are making the argument white players are being targeted now and African-American and Spanish players seemingly are not, at least to the same extent.

Of course, it basically cost Addison Russell his career.

All that said, having lived in Colombia for a year, there's a sense of entitlement for the machismo culture that predominates in a number of Caribbean, Latin and South American countries.  Men (especially athletes) used to get a free pass from society...that's slowly changing.  Slowly.

I saw this recent case on my feed (former Astros' Venezuelan AA prospect dating back to 2016, half expected a White Sox history) and couldn't believe the sense of raw entitlement.  Like he was shooing away a fly.

https://www.kaotic.com/video/eade1ec8_20230127171821_t

(Graphic violence.  Not for faint of heart.)

First off, I didn't say anything about race or make any comment towards the subjects your broaching. Second off, you should get a better understanding of what you're talking about before saying something like this because the relationship you're trying to make doesn't even exist if you actually took a second to understand the facts of the matter instead of just trying to cram race into a subject that race plays no part it. 

I trust that you will let this topic/tripe go. Not because it is off-topic, inappropriate and without standing, but rather because you tend to have issues staying on the same topic for consecutive thoughts. 

[raBBit]

15 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I mean, I would hope some of the guys have a problem with sharing a locker room with a guy that pushed around his gf and throws/pours chew spit at his infant child….

and yes, I agree that they cannot just release him until the league has spoken. But do think they should tell him to not bother coming to camp if there isn’t a resolution in the next couple weeks, or ask the league to put him on administrative leave while they continue to sort it out. 

For one thing, it is a blessing that many of us grew up in a way where these domestic violence incidents are looked at as zero tolerance. On the other hand, there are many people in the league (whichever league) and on the Sox that have grown up in an environment where hitting a women is somewhat commonplace.

To your point of the Sox clubhouse having issues, wouldn't the same be said for all of the Yankees last year with Aroldis Chapman? The Cubs didn't seem to have any issue with acquiring him in 2016 after he cleared his handgun next to his wife / girlfriend 's head. Odubel Hererra was a game away from getting a World Series ring in October. Dodgers could have won all of the last three World Series after Julio Urias' incident and people actually witnessed that. Do you think those clubhouses were concerned what happened with those guys' personal lives?

What about the Dolphins with Tyreke Hill? Bengals didn't have any chemistry / locker room issues with Joe Mixon these past few years. 

Clevinger is still under investigation. His teammates are adults living in the real world. It is not the social media world. The team will manage. Clevinger's a starting pitcher. Maybe there is an outfielder that takes exception to it and pent up aggression over it and maybe they keep their distance. Just like all the other teams in all the other leagues manage with all the other criminals/abusers/accused criminals/accused abusers in sports, the Sox will manage. The players are human and when they go to work they're going to be a lot more concerned with things other than what may have happened in the private life of one of their teammates who takes the ball every fifth day. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by raBBit

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, raBBit said:

For one thing, it is a blessing that many of us grew up in a way where these domestic violence incidents are looked at as zero tolerance. On the other hand, there are many people in the league (whichever league) and on the Sox that have players who grew up in an environment where hitting a women is somewhat commonplace.

To your point of the Sox clubhouse having issues, wouldn't the same be said for all of the Yankees last year with Aroldis Chapman? The Cubs didn't seem to have any issue with acquiring him in 2016 after he cleared his handgun next to his wife / girlfriend 's head. Odubel Hererra was a game away from getting a World Series ring in October. Dodgers could have won all of the last three World Series after Julio Urias' incident and people actually witnessed that? Do you think those clubhouses were concerned what happened with those guys' personal lives?

What about the Dolphins with Tyreke Hill? Bengals didn't have any chemistry / locker room issues with Joe Mixon these past few years. 

Clevinger is still under investigation. His teammates are adults living in the real world. It is not the social media world, the drama comes naturally not by design. The team will manage. Clevinger's a starting pitcher. Maybe there is an outfielder that takes exception to it and pent up aggression over it and maybe they keep their distance. Just like all the other teams in all the other leagues manage with all the other criminals/abusers/accused criminals/accused abusers in sports, the Sox will manage. The players are human and when they go to work they're going to be a lot more concerned with things other than what may have happened in the private life of one of their teammates who takes the ball every fifth day. 

That’s fair. And to be honest, I agree with most everything you said and as far as Sox fans / this board goes, side with your take on this much more than most. 

That said, Clevinger is a scumbag and I hope he never pitches a game for the Sox even though they’re clearly better if he does as currently constructed. I hope he gets hit with a 162+ game ban and blackballed from the league like Bauer appears to be. I am in no way condoning the DV allegations here, but the child abuse accusations takes this a very clear step further for me. It’s also just another distraction (as minor as it may ultimately be), that is clubhouse does not need. 

[4uckOffCommieScum]

Correct me if I am wrong here, but all these previous examples of mlb suspensions involve the victim filing an actual report with police. Which is lacking in this case for some unknown reason

[caulfield12]

42 minutes ago, raBBit said:

For one thing, it is a blessing that many of us grew up in a way where these domestic violence incidents are looked at as zero tolerance. On the other hand, there are many people in the league (whichever league) and on the Sox that have grown up in an environment where hitting a women is somewhat commonplace.

To your point of the Sox clubhouse having issues, wouldn't the same be said for all of the Yankees last year with Aroldis Chapman? The Cubs didn't seem to have any issue with acquiring him in 2016 after he cleared his handgun next to his wife / girlfriend 's head. Odubel Hererra was a game away from getting a World Series ring in October. Dodgers could have won all of the last three World Series after Julio Urias' incident and people actually witnessed that. Do you think those clubhouses were concerned what happened with those guys' personal lives?

What about the Dolphins with Tyreke Hill? Bengals didn't have any chemistry / locker room issues with Joe Mixon these past few years. 

Clevinger is still under investigation. His teammates are adults living in the real world. It is not the social media world. The team will manage. Clevinger's a starting pitcher. Maybe there is an outfielder that takes exception to it and pent up aggression over it and maybe they keep their distance. Just like all the other teams in all the other leagues manage with all the other criminals/abusers/accused criminals/accused abusers in sports, the Sox will manage. The players are human and when they go to work they're going to be a lot more concerned with things other than what may have happened in the private life of one of their teammates who takes the ball every fifth day. 

You're proving/validating the case that race/culture is another potential factor with your five provided examples.  

(Adrian Peterson inexplicably wasn't thrown into the mix,  somehow, as that's more directly related to child abuse.)

 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by caulfield12

[pcq]

21 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

You're proving/validating the case that race/culture is another potential factor with your five provided examples.  

 

Sometimes it's the woman getting physical and the guy has to take care not to over-react. It can be a lose-lose situation. The athlete is the one in demand leading to hurt feelings on the other side. 

[Balta1701]

24 minutes ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

Correct me if I am wrong here, but all these previous examples of mlb suspensions involve the victim filing an actual report with police. Which is lacking in this case for some unknown reason

There are so few cases of this happening in baseball over the ~8 seasons of the domestic violence policy that it is hard to make an educated guess about how that will affect baseball's decision making. However, in part based on the "some unknown reason" language you chose I do want to note and stress that different people respond to trauma differently and that one person filing things in a different way from others shouldn't be taken to indicate really anything about the validity of the accusation.

You can come up with lots of justifications for why a person would act like that. It is also possible that there were other steps taken that we don't know about yet, baseball beat writers in Chicago aren't necessarily the best criminal investigative reporters.

What we know is that:

1. Somehow this was reported to the Padres last year and the Padres reported it to MLB. MLB appears to have followed appropriate procedures as spelled out in their domestic violence agreement, opening an investigation while retaining privacy.
2. The White Sox signed Clevinger without ever being informed by the league. This was again the written policy of the league. 
3. The victim chose to go public a week ago including their photographs.