How do the Sox move forward now that tanking isn't an option?

[elrockinMT]

14 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Aaron Bummer and his 6.82 ERA?

A bad year or part of the year doesn’t mean a player is washed up and has no value 

Edited July 25, 2023 by elrockinMT

[Lip Man 1]

57 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don’t think you were here much for the lockout? But this is one where I think the players are actually mostly in the wrong. Over the last 20 years, the owners have cut the fraction of income going to players by like 1/3, from 60% to under 40% in 2021. The owners figured out how to collide without colluding; you just make it clear you’re not bidding on someone like the Harper and Machado pursuits. The players would have come out better for 15 years if the locked in a cap and a floor because the floor would have pushed up a lot of veteran salaries. Waiting for one Cohen to come along doesn’t make up for this.

Furthrrmore, a league where Oakland and Pittsburgh have to spend moderately is a stronger sport. It’s really bad when franchises wither over 20 years with only one or two competitive seasons, that kind of failure is murder on fanbases (cough).

The one legit worry I have to give though is that I don’t know that you can trust the owners to give honest revenue figures to independent auditors determining the tax or floor.  Whether it’s not counting parking or owning networks or hiding money in the drywall of some bathroom, there are owners I wouldn’t put anything past.

If you read the book, "The Lords of the Realm" by John Helyar he goes into detail with what the independent Stanford economist found when he was allowed to see the owners books during the 1994 labor impasse.

He (the economist) basically gutted the owners claims that the vast majority of teams were losing money and specifically detailed ways they were cooking the books.

One example was the Braves who were owned by Ted Turner, the same Ted Turner who owned WTBS the station that showed their games on TV. Turner was "selling" the rights to TBS at far below market value then claiming the franchise wasn't able to get as much money in their broadcasting rights.

Of course with Turner also owning the TV station all the advertising revenue was still going into his pockets but they could claim the Braves as an entity weren't getting anything.

The owners were furious at the economist and vowed they would never allow the books to be examined again if at all possible.

There is very good reason not to trust the owners or their claims of "hardship" in an industry that according to Sports Illustrated made 10.2 billion dollars last year.

[Lip Man 1]

14 minutes ago, elrockinMT said:

A bad year or part of the year doesn’t mean a player is washed up and has no value 

Bummer has had more than one  "bad year" but because he is left handed he may be of some value to another club.

[Bob Sacamano]

42 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Bummer has had more than one  "bad year" but because he is left handed he may be of some value to another club.

Yeah, other teams might think “get him the F out of that organization” and have a gem on their hands

[Chicago White Sox]

The only hope for success is to trade our short-term pieces for long-term assets.  That means trading Dylan Cease right now and acquiring multiple pieces that have already been partially developed.  The Orioles have numerous top 100 prospects and other interesting pieces.  The matchup just makes so much damn sense it should happen.  Pretending we can win next year is simply digging ourselves a bigger grave.

[baseball_gal_aly]

40 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The only hope for success is to trade our short-term pieces for long-term assets.  That means trading Dylan Cease right now and acquiring multiple pieces that have already been partially developed.  The Orioles have numerous top 100 prospects and other interesting pieces.  The matchup just makes so much damn sense it should happen.  Pretending we can win next year is simply digging ourselves a bigger grave.

I don't think anyone disagrees but I'd be shocked if they trade Cease before the end of next season. 

[Quin]

9 hours ago, elrockinMT said:

I don’t think we need any of those burn down the house moves. We certainly can make some moves such as trading Lance Lynn because of age and salary, or Grandahl for the same reason. But, with Yaz being dealt you need good catching and I don’t see us there at this time. Trade Bummer for a good return as well as Graveman and Middleton. Use the money saved a resign Giolito and extend Cease, Kopech, Crochet and maybe Kelly. Clevinger is a toss up and so is Lopez. We have a good OF and a healthy infield will be a real plus. DH should be good also. I really believe a healthy and motivated team will win in 2024. Absolutely nothing positive will come out of blowing up the roster and it will only put us in the bottom for several years. But, if they want to bring Ozzie back I wouldn’t cry 

At this point I have to ask if this is performance art of a coping mechanism.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Quin said:

At this point I have to ask if this is performance art of a coping mechanism.

Stockholm Syndrome/Brooks Boyerism

[Chick Mercedes]

21 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

Tanking is definitely an option and probably a likely option now, not sure why it’s being dismissed. Doesn’t matter if you intended to rebuild it if you have to rebuild it

Yeah that was a confusing stipulation 

[GreenSox]

Well, the Sox have blown, what 10-12 Saves this season?  That wouldn't have happened with Liam.  Therefore, with Liam instead of a 41-60 record, the Sox would be 51-50. Plus our elite 3B will come back healthy and we should get a full healthy year out of Eloy.

Trade for India solves 2B. No one's trading the Reds cost-controlled young pitching for India, so the Sox can accomplish this.
Trade Giolito/Kelly/Lopez/Middleton TA for a major league ready starter and a near ready catching prospect.
If you can't get the catcher in July, trade pitching prospects and perhaps others for one in December
Can also dangle Burger and Sheets to accomplish this.
Trade Lynn only for ML ready pitching. If unavailable, keep him.
re-sign Elvis, with the intention to have Montgomery up in June.
2B solved, SP solved, C solved
Bullpen: Liam, Graveman, Bummer, Keener, Crochet, Schultz (in July), Lambert, Banks, sign someone

Done:  2024 contenders, Hahn-style.

Edited July 25, 2023 by GreenSox

[caulfield12]

28 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Well, the Sox have blown, what 10-12 Saves this season?  That wouldn't have happened with Liam.  Therefore, with Liam instead of a 41-60 record, the Sox would be 51-50. Plus our elite 3B will come back healthy and we should get a full healthy year out of Eloy.

Trade for India solves 2B. No one's trading the Reds cost-controlled young pitching for India, so the Sox can accomplish this.
Trade Giolito/Kelly/Lopez/Middleton TA for a major league ready starter and a near ready catching prospect.
If you can't get the catcher in July, trade pitching prospects and perhaps others for one in December
Can also dangle Burger and Sheets to accomplish this.
Trade Lynn only for ML ready pitching. If unavailable, keep him.
re-sign Elvis, with the intention to have Montgomery up in June.
2B solved, SP solved, C solved
Bullpen: Liam, Graveman, Bummer, Keener, Crochet, Schultz (in July), Lambert, Banks, sign someone

Done:  2024 contenders, Hahn-style.

21 blown saves , tops in the majors

lowest save conversion rate overall

lousy record in one run games and extra innings

 

Obvious problem is that we might never see the 2021-2022 version of Liam ever again...

Edited July 25, 2023 by caulfield12

[GreenSox]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

21 blown saves , tops in the majors

 

21
Well there you go.  The obvious excuse for this season.  Get Liam back and get suitable replacements for Gio, Lopez, Kelly and Grandal, and Sox will be cooking for 2024.

[The Kids Can Play]

23 hours ago, FloydBannister1983 said:

Also if the new GM is Getz there’s a good chance he’s worse than the old GM.

It's more than a good chance, it's definite fact. Let's face it, Getz has been handling the player development in the Sox farm system 7 years now. No GM can be effective on his own. That is why a good GM needs to rely on his front office executives under him. Getz is one of those key guys who obviously hasn't been giving good advice to Hahn. It's clear Getz also hasn't been making the necessary and efficient changes in the farm system approach to player development...in the fact we have one of the worst farm systems and ML rosters.

So why in the word would Getz be a good GM? Making Getz the next GM would be plain Insanity and thus many more years of mediocrity.

Note to Jerry from every loyal die-hard Sox fan: Please wake up and quit being so ignorant and stubborn and do the right thing for once!

[Lip Man 1]

17 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

21
Well there you go.  The obvious excuse for this season.  Get Liam back and get suitable replacements for Gio, Lopez, Kelly and Grandal, and Sox will be cooking for 2024.

Not without starting pitchers.

[Lip Man 1]

For those that are interested here are the dates for the 14 games where the Sox took a lead into the 7th inning or later AND wound up eventually losing the game: March 31, 7th inning (Graveman/Diekman), April 14, 7th inning (Diekman/Lopez), April 21 9th inning (Lopez), April 29 7th inning (Lynn), May 4 8th inning (Lopez), May 27 7th inning (Kelly), May 28 9th inning (Kelly), June 10 9th inning (Kelly), June 11 9th inning (Graveman), July 1 8th inning (Kelly), July 4 8th inning (Kelly), July 9 9th inning (Graveman), July 22 7th inning (Middleton/Santos), July 23 9th & 10th innings (Graveman/Banks). Also the White Sox are 4-9 in extra inning games because they are so bad at fundamentals even with a "ghost runner" on second base they can't score him.

And remember this is the most expensive bullpen in baseball.

[GreenSox]

3 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Not without starting pitchers.

That whole post was intended tongue-in-cheek.
It's absurd to think that this team can contend in 2024. 

[Balta1701]

22 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

That whole post was intended tongue-in-cheek.
It's absurd to think that this team can contend in 2024. 

Every time someone writes a post like that I wonder what the chances are that Rick Hahn prints them out and displays them to JR to show that the fanbase supports his plans and thinks he's done a strong job.

[southsideirish71]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Every time someone writes a post like that I wonder what the chances are that Rick Hahn prints them out and displays them to JR to show that the fanbase supports his plans and thinks he's done a strong job.

I believe there is a segment of the front office who believes that we can just sprinkle a few randoms around the diamond and maybe magic will happen and we can contend due to being in a weak division.  The old gambler Kenny program.  The old all you need to do is get in and just anything can happen.  

[South Side Hit Men]

52 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

21
Well there you go.  The obvious excuse for this season.  Get Liam back and get suitable replacements for Gio, Lopez, Kelly and Grandal, and Sox will be cooking for 2024.

Liam likely needs Tommy John surgery and out until 2025. Wouldn't be surprised if Crochet is out until 2024.

Think the best case scenario if they try to compete is 85 wins in 2024 if a lot of things go right / above realistic expectations,

Rotation

• Cease regains his #1 form,
• Kopech can stay healthy and provide 150 4.00 ERA innings.
• Hahn brings in 3-4 lottery starter tickets (Maeda, Keller, Flaherty, Wacha, Cueto), 1 - 2 pan out like Cueto.
• Can scrape together a decent starter out of what exists in the organization.
• Sox surprise and sign a good plus starter, say Stroman likes Chicago and is OK with Tony gone.

Bullpen

• Somehow Liam doesn't need TJS, can pitch well in 2024,
• Santos can pitch in the 8th or 9th role.
• Graveman isn't moved & can perform decent in a 7th-8th role. Pitching for FA, so may be OK.
• Middleton returns or someone like him, Bummer pitches well (his 2.35 FIP is outstanding).
• Grab / graduate a few more.

Starting Lineup

• Anderson & Moncada play well for their upcoming free agent contracts
• Burger, Eloy, Vaughn somehow provide 1.5-2.0 + WAR seasons.
• Colas can figure out ML Pitching and provide a 1 + WAR.
• Benintendi's hand is fully healthy, he can hit 5 + HRs and be a 1.5 WAR player.
• Robert continues to progress with a 5 + WAR season.
• Sox score a lottery ticket at 2B, say Kolten Wong, or perhaps get serious and try for a Merrifield / Frazier FA signing and they actually perform well.
• Tucker Barnhart type and Zazala form a quality defensive / no hit catcher duo.

Like I said, a s%*# load has to go right and you're looking at a likely 85 ish win ceiling, but that is what would need to happen if they Sox want to try one more season before decent prospects start to emerge in 2025-2026.

[WBWSF]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

For those that are interested here are the dates for the 14 games where the Sox took a lead into the 7th inning or later AND wound up eventually losing the game: March 31, 7th inning (Graveman/Diekman), April 14, 7th inning (Diekman/Lopez), April 21 9th inning (Lopez), April 29 7th inning (Lynn), May 4 8th inning (Lopez), May 27 7th inning (Kelly), May 28 9th inning (Kelly), June 10 9th inning (Kelly), June 11 9th inning (Graveman), July 1 8th inning (Kelly), July 4 8th inning (Kelly), July 9 9th inning (Graveman), July 22 7th inning (Middleton/Santos), July 23 9th & 10th innings (Graveman/Banks). Also the White Sox are 4-9 in extra inning games because they are so bad at fundamentals even with a "ghost runner" on second base they can't score him.

And remember this is the most expensive bullpen in baseball.

I don't pay attention to most of your posts. Your relentless criticism and total negativity towards the White Sox doesn't interest me.  Still, do you think the bullpen    would have been better if Hendriks had been on the team? Losing a All Star bullpen pitcher like Hendriks has really hurt the team.

[spiderman]

On 7/24/2023 at 11:51 AM, baseballgalaly said:

Obviously cleaning house in the FO should be the first priority, but how should they move forward from here? I'm at a loss. 

They are more likely to re-shuffle the roster than a total rebuild, maybe free up some money, add some cheaper talent who can give them "flexibility" for next year's roster and their budget. It's hard to seem them going full in though on another rebuild.

Without knowing their budget, and how much money they have next off-season, they need to address C, 2B (probably will be in-house), SS (probably Tim Anderson), 3B (probably Moncada with his contract), RF (probably Colas)....but you can see here already that they are probably still going to bring back most of the roster.

Assuming they trade Giolito and/or don't bring him back next season, Lynn/Clevinger are also not likely to come back and it's hard to depend on Crochet or Kopech so they are Cease with a lot of questions. Any trades made before the deadline will probably bring back 1-2 backend of the rotation options for next season and/or bullpen arms assuming they trade 2-3 guys from the current roster.

Lots of holes, probably not much money to go spending to fill it, and little help from the minors.

This team is in a state of mediocrity.

Edited July 25, 2023 by spiderman

[South Side Hit Men]

17 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Aaron Bummer and his 6.82 ERA?

FIP 2.35. 

White Sox Defense.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, WBWSF said:

I don't pay attention to most of your posts. Your relentless criticism and total negativity towards the White Sox doesn't interest me.  Still, do you think the bullpen    would have been better if Hendriks had been on the team? Losing a All Star bullpen pitcher like Hendriks has really hurt the team.

To each his own, my negativity towards this organization is based on facts and the won/lost record especially since the start of the 2007 season.

Losing Hendriks didn't help but regardless if he was 100% available all year the results wouldn't be much better. With all the issues with this roster it's delusional to think otherwise.

As delusional as say thinking that JR is going to sell anytime soon. 😆

[T R U]

1 hour ago, southsideirish71 said:

I believe there is a segment of the front office who believes that we can just sprinkle a few randoms around the diamond and maybe magic will happen and we can contend due to being in a weak division.  The old gambler Kenny program.  The old all you need to do is get in and just anything can happen.  

Hard to let this mindset go when you won a World Series doing it.

[Bob Sacamano]

7 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

To each his own, my negativity towards this organization is based on facts and the won/lost record especially since the start of the 2007 season.

Losing Hendriks didn't help but regardless if he was 100% available all year the results wouldn't be much better. With all the issues with this roster it's delusional to think otherwise.

As delusional as say thinking that JR is going to sell anytime soon. 😆

If not for the cancer, he probably misses time anyway for his elbow he probably should have taken care of last year.