Fire Chris Getz

[nrockway]

4 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Most losses 3 consecutive years, all time MLB.

1.Mets 1962 to 1964 = 340

2. Astros 2011-2013 =324

3. White Sox 2023 to 2025 = 322*

4. Rockies 2023-25 = 319*

Most losses 2 consecutive seasons, all time MLB

1. Mets 1962-1963 = 231

2. Philadelphia A's 1916-17 = 226

3. Orioles 2018-2019 = 223

4. White Sox 2023-24 = 222*

* = Still in progress.

 

1969 Mets won the World Series.

2017 Astros won the World Series

Orioles probably lose 100 games 4 seasons in a row if the third season isn't shortened due to COVID (60 games played, BAL was on pace to lose 95 anyway). Soon after, they won 101 and 91 games.

TBD on the Rockies and Sox.

Astros and Orioles seem to be the relevant point of reference. "Losing 100 games" doesn't actually matter in the long term. 

Edited September 26 by nrockway

[77 Hitmen]

5 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

3. White Sox 2023 to 2025 = 322*

. . .

4. White Sox 2023-24 = 222*

* = Still in progress.

 

Don't you mean "still in genuine progress"?

Edited September 26 by 77 Hitmen

[Soxfest]

The fact Getz still will have a job is a big 🖕to fans who have endured multiple 100 loss seasons.

[Lip Man 1]

21 minutes ago, Soxfest said:

The fact Getz still will have a job is a big 🖕to fans who have endured multiple 100 loss seasons.

If JR were to fire him they'd have to 'waste another year' and we can't have that. So he stays. 

[nrockway]

29 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

If JR were to fire him they'd have to 'waste another year' and we can't have that. So he stays. 

So if you're the aforementioned 2013 Astros, you'd fire Jeff Luhnow and his scouting director, Mike Elias, right? You just lost 107, 111, 92 games after all. Were those guys really bad at their job? The Astros proceeded to win 311 games over 3 seasons (104 wins average). The Orioles hired that moron scouting director for some reason, proceeded to lose 108, go 25-35 (95 loss pace), 110 games...before winning 101 and 91.

I don't know how baseball fans don't realize in their many years of watching the sport the timeframe in which teams are actually built. It's true of most sports. I can appreciate the emotional component of it certainly, the mlb-PTSD wrought by JR. I could appreciate the idea that Getz and co is drafting bad players and that the minor leaguers aren't developing. The only thought is the MLB team's W/L record which is short-sighted and simply a wrong mode of analysis.

This is potentially an interesting debate/discussion where I'd love to be proven wrong. But, frankly, it's genuinely too early to say anything definitively. There are positive advances that many on this board harp on that fall on deaf ears. Things the White Sox did not used to do but are doing now. The sorts of thing that modern MLB teams do. I'm not sure if the fans who pay close attention to MILB think the sky is falling. I thought it was a fascinating take that "hiring a biomechanics staff was stupid". Weren't we all calling for that sort of thing in previous years? I think it's interesting that similar voices who thought Crochet/Montgomery were busts also think losing 100 games is a meaningful indicator of future success.

Edited September 26 by nrockway

[Kyyle23]

Luhnow had an incredible run in the Cardinals organization running their minors and was brought in to fix the Astros scouting and development. quite the opposite of Getz run in our minors. They couldn’t have more different resumes leading up to their GM jobs.  And, you know; Luhnow actually interviewed for his job as opposed to having the league grant some weird ass exception to Reinsdorf 

if you want to compare them, then start at the beginning. 

[nrockway]

22 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Luhnow had an incredible run in the Cardinals organization running their minors and was brought in to fix the Astros scouting and development. quite the opposite of Getz run in our minors. They couldn’t have more different resumes leading up to their GM jobs.  And, you know; Luhnow actually interviewed for his job as opposed to having the league grant some weird ass exception to Reinsdorf 

if you want to compare them, then start at the beginning. 

The resume is irrelevant though. We can compare side-by-side the moves the guy with the "great resume", David Stearns, has made with the Mets relative to Getz with the Sox. The Mets could've kept Vasil, Orze, might've signed Houser, might've even signed Michael A Taylor instead of trading for Jose Siri and would have a better team this year. Among other moves and wasted mega-expenditures. Stearns signed Soto, right, and retained some key players because of the massive budget. Any GM could've signed Soto to that team. If the Mets acquired pitchers like the Sox did, they're not fighting for the playoffs with a $340mil payroll. The good pitchers on their team (sans rookie McClean) are from the previous front office.

The resume, "the past", isn't really the question. Tony La Russa has a great resume too, he's a Hall of Famer, how'd that work out for the Sox? The point is about how past success doesn't necessarily indicate future success. The Astros had Hahn-esque, recent-Sox type teams under Ed Wade, and the MLB team immediately got worse when they hired Luhnow. The MLB team was really bad for several years under Luhnow. Do you think posters on this board would care about his resume with the Cardinals when the Astros are bottomfeeding? And yet, look how it turned out for them.

Speaking of those Cardinals teams, "Luhnow's hiring initially prompted skepticism, since he had no previous experience in baseball and had not played the sport since high school. He was derided with nicknames like "the accountant" and 'Harry Potter'". Sounds like somebody we know. They won 105 games the year prior to Luhnow taking over the scouting department and not many of his draftees made MLB before being hired by the Astros. Had some MILB championships (The Barons just won their second straight). He didn't have anything to with Yadier Molina for instance. He did draft Lance Lynn who debuted prior to be hiring by the Astros. Maybe reliever, proper MLB reliever, Joe Kelly debuted during his time there. Several other 'meh' MLB players whose names I don't remember joined the team and contributed to their WS team (83 wins) in un-meaningful ways. He opened an academy in the DR (something the Sox just did). His resume is essentially that of Chris Getz the farm director with less baseball experience.

The actual point being made is that it took several years for the Astros to turn into a dynasty after being a terrible team for several years. Sox fans would've been calling for his head. Hiring Mike Elias would've been even more eye-rolling.

I'm not sure that Getz is either one of those guys, I just don't think the argumentation checks out. Talk about what is being done in the present day in order to build an effective organization, not their "resumes". Rookies and first year coaches don't have a resume but everybody starts somewhere. Young people in the real world wouldn't ever get hired over people with a 40 years of experience or privileged brats who attended Ivy League universities because their parents forced them to study from day 1 or did 'extracurriculars' in the third world. Talent wins out over pedigree. Or it ought to (it typically doesn't except in sports). Harder for us in the peanut gallery to analyze that in baseball executives. But the signs are there. If the signs aren't actually there as I think they are, let's talk about it.

I like to analogize Chris Getz to David Stearns because it seems like a very easy argument to make that Getz would've done a better job with this Mets team. Stearns could have hired Bannister or Venable over Mendoza (not sure either one is a good manager, but one was a hot commodity). Within the Sox, the organizational deficiencies have certainly been addressed...it's just, again, too early to say if it'll actually work. Are Fauske and Bonemer good picks? Will the new Dominican academy bear fruit when the Sox haven't operated there since that one guy was convicted by the feds for stealing from children/the org? Is Marco Paddy's replacement any good? Did the new Arizona facility actually help un-bust Colson Montgomery? Will an unsheathed Mike Shirley's draft picks do anything?

 

tl;dr: pedigree is meaningless and so is the w/l record during a rebuild

[Kyyle23]

Ah I see.  Nothing matters. Carry on

[tray]

4 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

Ah I see.  Nothing matters.

Carry on

my wayward son. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

This guy is still comparing Getz to Stearns. And now hes comparing him to Luhnow. This is unbelievable. 

The amount of delusion about Chris Getz is incredible.

Edited September 26 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[nrockway]

6 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

Ah I see.  Nothing matters. Carry on

bro what

[nrockway]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

This guy is still comparing Getz to Stearns. And now hes comparing him to Luhnow. This is unbelievable. 

The amount of delusion about Chris Getz is incredible.

genuinely illiterate 

[Kyyle23]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

This guy is still comparing Getz to Stearns. And now hes comparing him to Luhnow. This is unbelievable. 

The amount of delusion about Chris Getz is incredible.

We are operating on “well, because another guy turned it around that means Getz is going to”.  I can’t argue when you say “pedigree AND record doesn’t matter” because we all know it does.  

the Sox are likely to trade Robert, and the word is that is to free his salary up for whatever free agents they are gonna sign.  So we are looking at filling gaps with around 20 million dollars.  We could literally be staring at 4 straight years of 100 losses next season, and then a labor impasse in 27 which our fearless leader loves to participate in so he doesn’t have to pay bills.  But it doesn’t matter 
 

good times a comin!

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

15 minutes ago, nrockway said:

genuinely illiterate 

So you didn't bring up Luhnow and Stearns as reference points to Getz? Oh and young people get hired into entry-level roles where people with 40 years experience aren't employed. Every comparison you make or excuse you level is a train wreck.

Edited September 26 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[nrockway]

7 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

So you didn't bring up Luhnow and Stearns as reference points to Getz? Oh and young people get hired into entry-level roles where people with 40 years experience aren't employed. Every comparison you make or excuse you level is a train wreck.

I asked rhetorically 'what would you have thought about the GM of the 2014 Astros at the time?" It's easy to say things with hindsight. It's semi-amusing that his 'pre-success' resume sounds a bit like Getz.

I reference Stearns that the Mets are fucking garbage and Getz literally made moves that Stearns should have made to address the flaw that might keep their $340mil roster out of the playoffs. You didn't seem to address either point. I guess you can't really address the rhetorical question, but simply ponder it. But you seem very certain how 'destined to fail' the White Sox are and you don't have much basis for it. 

I'd love to talk more about this but I have to leave!

Edited September 26 by nrockway

[Kyyle23]

3 minutes ago, nrockway said:

I asked rhetorically 'what would you have thought about the GM of the 2014 Astros at the time?" It's easy to say things with hindsight. It's semi-amusing that his 'pre-success' resume sounds a bit like Getz.

I reference Stearns that the Mets are fucking garbage and Getz literally made moves that Stearns should have made to address the flaw that might keep their $340mil roster out of the playoffs. You didn't seem to address either point. I guess you can't really address the rhetorical question, but simply ponder it. But you seem very certain how 'destined to fail' the White Sox are and you don't have much basis for it. 

I'd love to talk more about this but I have to leave!

As of today the Mets are in the playoffs.  They might not be meeting expectations but they have a gamblers chance.  This board would be THRILLED with that.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

23 minutes ago, nrockway said:

I asked rhetorically 'what would you have thought about the GM of the 2014 Astros at the time?" It's easy to say things with hindsight. It's semi-amusing that his 'pre-success' resume sounds a bit like Getz.

I reference Stearns that the Mets are fucking garbage and Getz literally made moves that Stearns should have made to address the flaw that might keep their $340mil roster out of the playoffs. You didn't seem to address either point. I guess you can't really address the rhetorical question, but simply ponder it. But you seem very certain how 'destined to fail' the White Sox are and you don't have much basis for it. 

I'd love to talk more about this but I have to leave!

This has nothing to do with hindsight, Einstein.

Luhnow was a top GM candidate who was obtained via a search process where multiple candidates were interviewed. He was in charge of Cardinals minor leagues during a stretch where the team made the playoffs 9 out of 12 years, including TWO World Series wins and certainly never lost 100 games.

Chris Getz has been in the White Sox organization since 2016. In that time, they've lost 100 + games TWICE as often as they made the playoffs. Stearns and Luhnow were HIGHLY qualified candidates who were hired based on merit.

Edit: I don't have much basis for it? The White Sox are the worst organization in professional baseball since Getz took over. How is there not much basis? What the hell are you watching, pal? Is it the same thing we're all watching?

Edited September 26 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

19 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

As of today the Mets are in the playoffs.  They might not be meeting expectations but they have a gamblers chance.  This board would be THRILLED with that.

The way he talks about the Mets, you'd think they set the MLB record for losses in a season.

[southsider2k5]

7 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

Ah I see.  Nothing matters. Carry on

Nothing YOU say matters.  Only these very selected things being approved as important.

[WhiteSox2023]

14 hours ago, fathom said:

All I know is I don’t want to hear about the Barons winning the Championship as proof the rebuild is on the right path 

On the post game show last night, Our Chuck made a big deal about Getz attending the Barons game, saying that it shows how important winning at all levels is to Getz and this new front office.  Except for winning at the the major league level apparently…  🤣

[fathom]

11 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

On the post game show last night, Our Chuck made a big deal about Getz attending the Barons game, saying that it shows how important winning at all levels is to Getz and this new front office.  Except for winning at the the major league level apparently…  🤣

Of course 

[WhiteSox2023]

3 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

This guy is still comparing Getz to Stearns. And now hes comparing him to Luhnow. This is unbelievable. 

The amount of delusion about Chris Getz is incredible.

Wasn’t there already a thread on these awful GM comparisons to Getz?

[Timmy U]

12 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Wasn’t there already a thread on these awful GM comparisons to Getz?

I think half the threads on the board eventually fit this description.

[spiderman]

13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

We need to improve as much as we did from last year to this year, AGAIN, to merely get back to mediocre.

It's possible, maybe even expected, to do that again, but they shouldn't assume that the current roster will be able to improve without making external improvements.

The roster looks much more stable (and encouraging), but players don't always progress in a positive manner, injuries or underperformance happen

Right now, I think it's fair to project next year's team, with no changes, to be somewhere been 68-72 wins.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, spiderman said:

It's possible, maybe even expected, to do that again, but they shouldn't assume that the current roster will be able to improve without making external improvements.

The roster looks much more stable (and encouraging), but players don't always progress in a positive manner, injuries or underperformance happen

Right now, I think it's fair to project next year's team, with no changes, to be somewhere been 68-72 wins.

It is not going to come from the outside to any significant extent, because we aren't going to spend, and Robert isn't brining it back this winter.