Brian Kenny on White Sox front office...

[Bob Sacamano]

22 minutes ago, bmags said:

also shout out to Claire McNear whose post-Machado article was one of the few that treated sox fans like they deserved better

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2019/2/20/18232714/manny-machado-white-sox-whiff-free-agency

Fast forward 4 and a half years and still nothing.

[Sox72]

This video is fine. But it’s really only surface-level criticism (and generally accurate). You really need someone who pays more attention to the Sox to truly demonstrate the abject failure and deeper roots of the problem. 

[reiks12]

2021 was a lucky team, their true self appeared in the second half. 16 singles before an xbh in the playoffs, thats the team we all saw in 2022. 

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

2021 was a lucky team, their true self appeared in the second half. 16 singles before an xbh in the playoffs, thats the team we all saw in 2022. 

Look at the team fWAR in 2021 vs. 2022/23.

It's crazy that largely the same group of players are responsible.

[Balta1701]

"Guillen rides the bullpen hard in the playoffs"

What?

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

"Guillen rides the bullpen hard in the playoffs"

What?

4 complete games in a row from the starters apparently did not happen.

[Balta1701]

2 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

4 complete games in a row from the starters apparently did not happen.

That inning Neal Cotta pitched in game 1 was ROUGH.

(He might be kinda referring to the El Duque game, but he didn't phrase it right).

[Panerista]

4 hours ago, Timmy U said:

I have previously debunked this canard a billion times. The industry knew he was a break out. Law wrote an article before the trade saying that industry sources who had seen Tatis in instructs said that he'd have been 1-1 had he been eligible for the draft.  This is not a Junior Caminero situation.  Tatis was highly prized and the Sox dealt him for maximum salary relief for a guy who already sucked.

You were wrong then and you're wrong now.

 

You're free to be continually wrong. At least it's consistent. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Vacheron

[soulfly]

2 hours ago, Capn12 said:

 

Kinda says all you need to know about this "core", right there.

Goddamn Eloy is useless and should have been traded years ago

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Vacheron said:

You were wrong then and you're wrong now.

 

You're free to be continually wrong. At least it's consistent. 

Tatis would have gotten well over $1 million if he was already universally agreed upon by scouts.

Pretty sure it was only $800k.

He would later gain the 2 1/2 inches of additional height while retaining and even increasing the speed and power.

The quick twitch muscles and infield arm were already obvious to anyone watching him in AZ.

 

Law was the first national writer to jump him up all the way to overall Top 10-15 MiLB status in his first full minor league campaign with SD.

[Timmy U]

4 minutes ago, Vacheron said:

You were wrong then and you're wrong now.

 

You're free to be continually wrong. At least it's consistent. 

Well, at least you have a fact-based argument.  My brother and I were both vehemently against the trade in the week before it happened after the details were leaked BECAUSE Tatatis was in the deal. We had the discussion on vacation in Skydome, so I remember it distinctly.  How the hell would a couple of casual fans know that if Tatis weren't already a publicized prospect?  It was an f-ing terrible deal the second it was made and the fact that Shields suuuuuuuuucked was just the whipped cream on top of the crap sundae that everyone knew it was in the week after the deal leaked.

[bmags]

Maybe the sox didn't know he was a 1-1 draft pick, its true I dont' think they'd have traded him then. Hahn was very protective of his top prospects, I don't think he traded anyone another scout service told him was good.

But...I mean what if they'd have just played Tatis in DSL...after they signed him? Why was he not playing in DSL and then ACL/Arizona Rookie league all the way into late June?

I never heard he was injured, but I don't understand why he was just MIA for almost a full year after being signed, and then shows up in SD and everyone is floored by his physical maturity and growth.

[Timmy U]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Tatis would have gotten well over $1 million if he was already universally agreed upon by scouts.

Pretty sure it was only $800k.

He would later gain the 2 1/2 inches of additional height while retaining and even increasing the speed and power.

The quick twitch muscles and infield arm were already obvious to anyone watching him in AZ.

 

Law was the first national writer to jump him up all the way to overall Top 10-15 MiLB status in his first full minor league campaign with SD.

Tatis broke out in Fall instructs with the Sox.

[bmags]

12 minutes ago, bmags said:

Maybe the sox didn't know he was a 1-1 draft pick, its true I dont' think they'd have traded him then. Hahn was very protective of his top prospects, I don't think he traded anyone another scout service told him was good.

But...I mean what if they'd have just played Tatis in DSL...after they signed him? Why was he not playing in DSL and then ACL/Arizona Rookie league all the way into late June?

I never heard he was injured, but I don't understand why he was just MIA for almost a full year after being signed, and then shows up in SD and everyone is floored by his physical maturity and growth.

Well, I guess the issue is I did not remember here HOW early that trade was, would have been right as AZ started, and signing J2 he couldn't have played in DSL.

STill think that's Spring training +  backfields. I just find it too cute to say they had no idea what this player they signed had transformed into.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

"Guillen rides the bullpen hard in the playoffs"

What?

If I recall he then mentioned the four complete games in the post season. I'm guessing his bullpen comment was in regards to the Red Sox / Astros series.

[kitekrazy]

1 hour ago, reiks12 said:

2021 was a lucky team, their true self appeared in the second half. 16 singles before an xbh in the playoffs, thats the team we all saw in 2022. 

Pen was also unreliable. That team was closer to 100 wins if it weren't for the pen. 

[SonofaRoache]

11 hours ago, Middle Buffalo said:

I feel like the Shields trade had KW’s fingerprints on it. Like the LaRussa signing, it doesn’t go with the rest of the moves Hahn made. Shields seems like the kind of guy Kenny had one of his crushes on who was destined to one day join the team.

Not sticking up for Hahn…it was his time to get canned, but I don’t think he was ever fully in control.

Oh, and the Sox still haven’t signed a prime free agent in forever.

Hahn already took accountability for the Shields trade. 

[ThirdGen]

Comparing the 2017 MLB Top-100 Prospects Lists (calltothepen.com)

This links to an article from February 2017 comparing top prospect lists from various writers. Tatis had been with SD approximately 8 months at this point.

The article specifically mentions that Keith Law currently ranked him #47 and was not ranked on any other prospect list.  The article calls it a "aggressive ranking for a player this young".  So it is pretty clear he was not ranked by anyone, Law included, as 1-1 or anything near it while still with the Sox.

[bmags]

10 minutes ago, ThirdGen said:

Comparing the 2017 MLB Top-100 Prospects Lists (calltothepen.com)

This links to an article from February 2017 comparing top prospect lists from various writers. Tatis had been with SD approximately 8 months at this point.

The article specifically mentions that Keith Law currently ranked him #47 and was not ranked on any other prospect list.  The article calls it a "aggressive ranking for a player this young".  So it is pretty clear he was not ranked by anyone, Law included, as 1-1 or anything near it while still with the Sox.

I dont' understand how this helps the case. February is the offseason, so adding more months to the total to make it seem like he had more time to develop is silly. Based on the time immediately after the trade, Law discussed with scouts who saw a top 50 prospect. That's not far off from where 1-1 guys tend to go, esp if prep.

While with sox...no idea, nobodies heard of him. None of their scouts are doing work because they dont' exist. Tatis appears at padres and is a top 50 player.

He didn't suddenly explode in some hidden fall instruct. This was based on his games played immediately after arriving.

Tatis was playing in Low-A as a 17 year old and had 5 extra base hits in 12 games. George Wolklow just was promoted to Single A and we are floored.

The sox were lazy, their laziness bit them horribly. It was the worst trade of the decade, and completely born out of how the sox are just so so so lazy.

 

[ThirdGen]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

I dont' understand how this helps the case. February is the offseason, so adding more months to the total to make it seem like he had more time to develop is silly. Based on the time immediately after the trade, Law discussed with scouts who saw a top 50 prospect. That's not far off from where 1-1 guys tend to go, esp if prep.

While with sox...no idea, nobodies heard of him. None of their scouts are doing work because they dont' exist. Tatis appears at padres and is a top 50 player.

He didn't suddenly explode in some hidden fall instruct. This was based on his games played immediately after arriving.

Tatis was playing in Low-A as a 17 year old and had 5 extra base hits in 12 games. George Wolklow just was promoted to Single A and we are floored.

The sox were lazy, their laziness bit them horribly. It was the worst trade of the decade, and completely born out of how the sox are just so so so lazy.

 

The point is that 5 of 6 prospect lists didn't even mention Tatis in 2018, and this was the first mention Law had given him. And the writer of this thought it to be odd that Law ranked him this high. Some of the posts in this thread imply that Tatis was highly regarded by many at the time of the trade, and that is simply not true.  He was probably roughly the same player in Feb 2018 as he was in July 2017, so it stands to reason that he if wasn't that highly regarded in Feb 2018 there is no chance he was six months earlier.  The Padres apparently saw something the Sox didn't, but no one else did either.  Kudos to the Pads, but not a major shame to the other 99.9% of the baseball world that apparently missed it, including the Sox.

[Paulie4Pres]

5 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Not Rick Hahn's fault.

It's the training staff, TLR and of course those individual players.

Nobody could have predicted their poor health or Covid lol.

It is absolutely management's fault, as well. Did you see how they stretch and warmup for the game?? No structure. No accountability. And a dogshit training and conditioning staff.

[South Side Hit Men]

Hawk Harrelson completely owned Brian Kenny during their debate regarding TWTW.

 

 

[caulfield12]

https://theathletic.com/884960/2019/03/25/everybody-was-surprised-but-here-we-are-an-oral-history-of-how-the-padres-acquired-fernando-tatis-jr/

Tatis Sr.: Marco Paddy, he was one of the best in the business, I believe. And the first time that he saw my son, he said, “He’s going to be a big-leaguer, there’s no doubt. And I’m going to sign him. Let everybody see him, but I’m going to be the one to sign him.” That’s what he told me: “No matter what he does, no matter what everybody does, what kind of offer they’ve got, I’m going to be the one to sign him, because this kid is going to be something special.”

I told Marco, “Right now, he doesn’t look the same height as all these kids. They get to sign for a lot of money, because they’re tall, they’re big, they’re strong.” He was one of the skinny guys, and I’m talking about 40 kids, 40 kids who were doing tryouts for the DPL in that moment. He was one of the small ones, and I told Marco Paddy, “Look, our family, we have the potential to grow a little bit late. When we start turning around 17, 18, that’s when we start growing. Watch.” And Bebo, Junior, he started to grow one inch every year.

Kemp: You look at Fernando’s dad. He’s 5-10. And nobody’s going to predict this guy’s going to grow four inches.

Later that year, the Padres were scouting the Arizona Instructional League. Tatis Jr., who was on the White Sox’s instructs roster, had indeed grown.

Tatis Jr.: I signed at 6 feet. And then I got to, like, 6-2.

Pete DeYoung, Padres pro scouting director: I definitely recall that they’d played in some instructional league games, which are generally more like simulated scrimmages, to some extent. He got into some action then, and our scout who (was covering) the White Sox — we always put in reports on what we see during instructional league, so he was part of that process then.

We knew he had the bloodlines, so just kind of the way he carried himself was something that we liked. And it was a projectable body with some athleticism and playing in the middle of the diamond. Those are all things that you take note of initially, and then you see the makings of a pretty decent swing and you see some arm strength.

The Padres saw more of Tatis early the next year, when he was in extended spring training...

Edited August 25, 2023 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

In the end...they had at least 3-4 guys looking at him closely, including Preller who was originally in charge of scouting (with Texas under Jon Daniels) before becoming a GM.

What makes you most upset is not the stories of Tatis (just like Burger) crying upon learning of being traded...but that Marco Paddy couldn't convince either Williams Hahn or JR that financial savings on James Shields wasn't MORE important than the talent he supposedly believed so much in (how much this is hindsight is a bit hard to determine) protecting.

 

 

Guessing someone will make the argument all that rapid physical development so quickly at that age was only possible with the addition of steroids to the mix. 

Certainly free to express that opinion now as well.

Edited August 25, 2023 by caulfield12

[Sox72]

25 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Hawk Harrelson completely owned Brian Kenny during their debate regarding TWTW.

 

 

I wouldn’t say he owned him. But he certainly argued that point better than I thought he would.