Andrew Vaughn and Eloy: what's the plan here?

[Lip Man 1]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

One more -

if these guys were fine offensively because of batting averages and home runs and RBIs and Robert was elite (actually true) and Burger was the best thing since meat was put between sliced bread, how was the White Sox’s offense so bad the whole year? 

Valid point to be sure but just for discussion sake let's say the four guys are OK offensively...surround them with crap for the other five lineup spots (which is what the Sox had) and the four guys would each have to put up MVP-type numbers for said offense to be any good.

Obviously that didn't happen. Sox had way to many automatic outs in the lineup. 

[Jerksticks]

We have 3 players.  Robert, Colson and Cease.  
 

did I miss anybody?

[Milkman delivers]

Just now, Jerksticks said:

We have 3 players.  Robert, Colson and Cease.  
 

did I miss anybody?

Santos, I guess?

[Balta1701]

48 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Valid point to be sure but just for discussion sake let's say the four guys are OK offensively...surround them with crap for the other five lineup spots (which is what the Sox had) and the four guys would each have to put up MVP-type numbers for said offense to be any good.

Obviously that didn't happen. Sox had way to many automatic outs in the lineup. 

Benintendi hit .262 with 45 RBI, Grandal had 8 HR and 33 RBI in half a season, Moncada hit .260 with 11 HR in half a season, Andrus hit .251 with 44 RBIs in about 400 at bats, Gavin Sheets had 10 HR and 43 RBI in 311 at bats so he was on pace for 76 RBI when Vaughn’s 80 RBI was strong and solid. People seemed to like Remillard. Colas was crap sure, and Anderson, but these guys put up the HR, RBI, and batting average you asked for.

[Chicago White Sox]

The reality is this org really loves Andrew Vaughn.  Short, slow, unathletic, underachieving, and right-handed.  What’s not to like from a 1B?  The reality is they aren’t going to give up on him and will force him down our throats as one of the “leaders” of the team.  He will be here next year, so we should just hope for the best.

On the other hand, I feel pretty confident Eloy gets traded.  My guess is he gets moved for a plus defensive RF with a questionable bat so that Getz can claim we’re getting “more athletic” despite adding old ass Salvy behind the plate.

[oldsox]

17 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

They combined for .7 fWAR. They were a staggering -27 runs below average defensively, even for players on the wrong side of the defensive spectrum adjustment that's impressive suck.

Both guys actually outperformed their expected wOBA by half a dozen or so points each, so it wasn't like it was bad luck holding their batting lines back. Eloy had an average launch angle of 5.7 degrees, one of the worst of any MLB regular. Vaughn was at 11.2 but "warning track power" describes his game pretty well. Neither guy had an ISO to write home about, Eloy had .169 and Vaughn .171. Those are power numbers you'd expect from a decent 2B, not glorified designated hitters.

Vaughn is certainly not an extension candidate and Eloy has club options for '25 and '26 at 16.5 million and 18.5 million respectively. Those are almost certainly not getting picked up. So in essence Eloy is under contract for next season and then that's it. Vaughn will stay cheap for a bit longer, but if he's replacement level, uh, who cares.

Do you trade Eloy at rock bottom value? Or maybe hope he runs into a few next summer and you can get something better at the deadline?

Do you pencil in Vaughn as the starter at 1B again given that he's shown no ability to be an average MLB player? There's more time to decide with him than Eloy, but again, replacement level play even when cheap isn't doing anybody any good.

IMO I'd just trade both guys for whatever table scraps you can get and reboot. I don't really see how the Sox contend next year in any universe you might as well just start clearing dead wood and there is an opportunity cost keeping these guys around. There's really nothing in either guy's athletic or batted ball profile that screams "massive upside".  Even if Vaughn starts to hit he's still a god awful 1B and even if Eloy starts to hit he's still an injury prone DH. Maybe he puts it together one season but it's not something the Sox need to worry about given how far they are from contending if he puts up a 4 fWAR season in 2024.

Now you're exaggerating.  I watched a lot of White Sox baseball the last two seasons, and I saw Vaughn dig a lot of throws out of the dirt.  He has reasonable range and his arm to second base is fine.  Sure, he messed up a few balls.  Those are called errors.  Everyone has a few.  Yes, I remember two foul balls that got the best of him.  Big deal.  If you want to talk about his outfield play, I'll agree with you, but not his first base play.

[oldsox]

Continuing....

Part of Vaughn's problem is that he was drafted so high.  If Sox would have taken him in Round 2, he wouldn't get nearly this much criticism.

[Snopek]

18 minutes ago, oldsox said:

Continuing....

Part of Vaughn's problem is that he was drafted so high.  If Sox would have taken him in Round 2, he wouldn't get nearly this much criticism.

But that IS the problem. He was a golden spikes winner and considered a very polished hitter who can quickly advance to the big leagues. He was a high pick for a reason, and with that comes lofty expectations that he’s yet to meet.

[JoeC]

The problem with Vaughn and Eloy, like with any other Sox prospect, is that the organization just relies on the innate abilities of players to figure thing out on their own. They don't seem to have a strategy to actually develop players. The coaches at different levels of the minors may offer insight / input, but, as we've heard from former players (like Carson Fulmer), a lot of times they receive conflicting instruction.

Look at organizations like Cleveland and Tampa who consistently take "okay" prospects and crank out serviceable big leaguers out of them, then look at us. AJ had it right in his rant against the Chris Getz hire - when's the last time this org has produced a serviceable everyday big leaguer out of a non-blue chip minor leaguer?

Vaughn and Eloy are symptoms (and victims) of organizational incompetence. IMO, trading them away for actual prospects is still possible (maybe less so with Eloy) - if the minor league development system could be overhauled, my preference would be to trade them (and others) and start from scratch.

[baseball_gal_aly]

Is Luis Robert actually that good if he's putting up a .315 OBP? 

All of his value is in his power and defense. 

Isn't the goal of hitting to not make outs? 

Edited October 5, 2023 by baseball_gal_aly

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, baseball_gal_aly said:

Is Luis Robert actually that good if he's putting up a .315 OBP? 

All of his value is in his power and defense. 

Isn't the goal of hitting to not make outs? 

The goal in hitting is to maximize runs produced.

No Sox player finished within .100 in slugging after the Sabotage Jerry Jake Burger Trade.

HR > 3B > 2B > 1B

(BB or 1B) + SB > 1B or BB

Luis and Yoan are the only two quality defenders on a team that definitely could use several more.

[baseball_gal_aly]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The goal in hitting is to maximize runs produced.

No Sox player finished within .100 in slugging after the Sabotage Jerry Jake Burger Trade.

HR > 3B > 2B > 1B

(BB or 1B) + SB > 1B or BB

Luis and Yoan are the only two quality defenders on a team that definitely could use several more.

It depends on who you ask about Moncada. UZR loves him but OAA hates him. 

Btw you maximize runs produced by not making outs. 

It doesn't matter if you get 3 singles and 2 walks. Nobody got out. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by baseball_gal_aly

[South Side Hit Men]

1 hour ago, baseball_gal_aly said:

It depends on who you ask about Moncada. UZR loves him but OAA hates him. 

Btw you maximize runs produced by not making outs. 

It doesn't matter if you get 3 singles and 2 walks. Nobody got out. 

Agreed regarding Moncada.

Over 2 out of 3 plate appearances result in outs, so taking extra bases either via power or speed is important since probability dictates a team will not score a run during a random inning.

Under 1/3 * Under 1/3 * Under 1/3 * Under 1/3 = under 1.2% chance of scoring a run if four walks / hits are required to do so one base at a time assuming four league average batters. Extra base hits or extra bases via base running drastically increases run expectation within an inning.

[tray]

18 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

18 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

The reality is this org really loves Andrew Vaughn.  Short, slow, unathletic, underachieving, and right-handed.  What’s not to like from a 1B?  The reality is they aren’t going to give up on him and will force him down our throats as one of the “leaders” of the team.  He will be here next year, so we should just hope for the best.

On the other hand, I feel pretty confident Eloy gets traded.  My guess is he gets moved for a plus defensive RF with a questionable bat so that Getz can claim we’re getting “more athletic” despite adding old ass Salvy behind the plate.

 Sometimes it's hard for some to see beyond stereotypes that exist in their own minds.

Edited October 5, 2023 by tray

[nrockway]

On 10/4/2023 at 4:12 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

Without RBI's, you don't score...without scoring you don't win. 

Without guys on base you don’t get rbis. There are better metrics though it isn’t useless. Batting average seems like one of those “basic” stats that probably tells you a lot, I don’t know that rbis says a lot except where the guy bats in the order, whether or not his teammates are any good, or he has the big papi mindset to hit the ball extra hard when guys are in scoring position. Otherwise rbi total probably parallels these other more useful stats. OPS isn’t a great one but it gives you a better idea of a player’s caliber. 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, tray said:

 

I don’t follow, please elaborate

[A-Train to 35th]

On 10/4/2023 at 2:40 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

Jimenez needs to be traded. Guy is an injury waiting to happen and any thought he'll ever have a 35-40 home run season is delusional.

Keep Vaughn (for now.)

Anyone see Eloy go down like a redwood after taking the pitch off his toe durning the last series?  Granted I'm sure it hurt, but he was down on the ground in a hurry like he was shot moaning and yelling.  Get rid of him, another distraction and as you said an injury waiting to happen.

[A-Train to 35th]

On 10/4/2023 at 2:47 PM, MiddleCoastBias said:

This and Balta's comment about coaches telling them to hit the ball into the ground and be aggressive, just look at the difference in Jake Burger on the Sox vs. the Marlins this year. Worlds apart.

I have no doubt that Eloy would mash somewhere else. We just won't get fair value because we'll continue to suppress it by asking him to hit line drives.

Jake hit 25 bombs with the Sox in 294 at bats and 9 for the Marlins in 198 AB, I'm not seeing what you're claiming.

Jake hit a homer every 11.76 AB's for the Sox, while it took 22 AB's to hit the 9 for the Marlins.   I said once on this site that I'm not good at Math, but I think I got this one.

[A-Train to 35th]

10 hours ago, Snopek said:

But that IS the problem. He was a golden spikes winner and considered a very polished hitter who can quickly advance to the big leagues. He was a high pick for a reason, and with that comes lofty expectations that he’s yet to meet.

And then the Sox made him play in the outfield instead of his natural position. Sox player development is the problem, they should have never brought him up with Jose still manning 1B. The pressure of learning a new position, while your position is occupied by the best player on the Sox messed with his hitting stroke, that and all the static and bad information that was told him by Sox coaches.

[Balta1701]

Pro side: Cronenworth has 2 4WAR seasons in 2021 and 2022. He is affordably under team control for the next 7 seasons. Is versatile and helps at positions of need.

Cons: next year will be his age 30 season and he has 7 years and $76 million remaining on his deal so this would be a big salary dump. He dropped to a 1 WAR season last year so you are hoping your coaches can help him get back to form. He broke his wrist last year and people seem thrilled to use that as an excuse for poor hitting whenever they can.

Verdict: if they think they’re competitive next year this is the kind of gamble that could work and they need some gambles to work out, also would do what Getz said and make them more athletic. If you believe me and they need to be looking 2 or 3 years down the road this type of deal would be a potentially big problem as you’d be stuck with a guy who has money lasting until he’s 36 on a team that can’t afford anything.

[South Side Hit Men]

25 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Pro side: Cronenworth has 2 4WAR seasons in 2021 and 2022. He is affordably under team control for the next 7 seasons. Is versatile and helps at positions of need.

Cons: next year will be his age 30 season and he has 7 years and $76 million remaining on his deal so this would be a big salary dump. He dropped to a 1 WAR season last year so you are hoping your coaches can help him get back to form. He broke his wrist last year and people seem thrilled to use that as an excuse for poor hitting whenever they can.

Verdict: if they think they’re competitive next year this is the kind of gamble that could work and they need some gambles to work out, also would do what Getz said and make them more athletic. If you believe me and they need to be looking 2 or 3 years down the road this type of deal would be a potentially big problem as you’d be stuck with a guy who has money lasting until he’s 36 on a team that can’t afford anything.

I want no new long term commitments under this front office, which will be replaced once the estate sale and new owners are approved, with the possible exceptions of Montgomery or Robert Jr.

They don't need another "World's Richest White Sox Contract" after getting rid of Grandal, and stuck with four more years of backloaded Benintendi, and have no contention window for at least 2-3 more years, with Jerry refusing to enter into any serious player free agents., to the point of making collusion type statements about Ohtani at the Getz press conference. I hope the MLBPA files a grievance against Jerry Reinsdorf and the Chicago White Sox organization.

[Highland]

I think Vaughn is a decent first baseman, and I see no problem with giving him another year to prove himself as a hitter. The team is going nowhere in 2024 anyway. They can concentrate on improving themselves elsewhere and have some hope for Vaughn.

[bmags]

10 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I want no new long term commitments under this front office, which will be replaced once the estate sale and new owners are approved, with the possible exceptions of Montgomery or Robert Jr.

They don't need another "World's Richest White Sox Contract" after getting rid of Grandal, and stuck with four more years of backloaded Benintendi, and have no contention window for at least 2-3 more years, with Jerry refusing to enter into any serious player free agents., to the point of making collusion type statements about Ohtani at the Getz press conference. I hope the MLBPA files a grievance against Jerry Reinsdorf and the Chicago White Sox organization.

I want the next ownership group to not act like a 5 year 50 million deal is some insurmountable obstacle to building a team. You can just trade it.

[JoeC]

15 minutes ago, Highland said:

I think Vaughn is a decent first baseman, and I see no problem with giving him another year to prove himself as a hitter. The team is going nowhere in 2024 anyway. They can concentrate on improving themselves elsewhere and have some hope for Vaughn.

That is probably the organization's philosophy, and that's my exact issue with this org that I unfortunately love.

Sox attitude: "let's give this guy time to prove himself."

Competent org attitude: "let's give ourselves a year or so to work out these specific holes in their game, whether it's at the big league level or minor league level, at which point we can figure out he's a good everyday player or if we should sell before his value declines too much"

[South Side Hit Men]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

I want the next ownership group to not act like a 5 year 50 million deal is some insurmountable obstacle to building a team. You can just trade it.

For smart moves, yes. Just want maximum flexibility when the time arrives.