Milkman delivers Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 59 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said: Lack of leadership and mostly accountability. At whose feet does that fall, though? I would have to say JR, as he is responsible for TLR and Grifol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 6 minutes ago, Milkman delivers said: At whose feet does that fall, though? I would have to say JR, as he is responsible for TLR and Grifol. All I know is this exact same group was running through walls, playing hard, and winning games when Ricky was here. A change was made and then started a slow, but consistently picking up speed, fall off until at some point everything just collapsed. Pick your poison as to how or why. Honestly it really doesn't matter. The well was poisoned and the tree died. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: All I know is this exact same group was running through walls, playing hard, and winning games when Ricky was here. A change was made and then started a slow, but consistently picking up speed, fall off until at some point everything just collapsed. Pick your poison as to how or why. Honestly it really doesn't matter. The well was poisoned and the tree died. Hell, they were more unified for TLR. They completely lost the plot for Grifol. It's why he needs so many vet leaders playing FASTs on a train that there's no room for rookies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 1 hour ago, Quin said: Hell, they were more unified for TLR. They completely lost the plot for Grifol. It's why he needs so many vet leaders playing FASTs on a train that there's no room for rookies. 2022 was a mess. I still don't know what happened with that 8 game losing streak when everyone forgot how to play defense (including Anderson), Keuchel ripped his defense, Leury batted 3rd because he had a good time in the batting cages, they had the entire season of weird injury issues that people tried to play through for no good reason, etc. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 29 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: 2022 was a mess. I still don't know what happened with that 8 game losing streak when everyone forgot how to play defense (including Anderson), Keuchel ripped his defense, Leury batted 3rd because he had a good time in the batting cages, they had the entire season of weird injury issues that people tried to play through for no good reason, etc. Somehow still better than Pedro's clubhouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 Just now, Quin said: Somehow still better than Pedro's clubhouse. I’m honestly not sure about that. I think Pedro had a worse roster, and an organization around them that cared less (see Clevinger getting to use Gold Digger as an example). I think that 2022 clubhouse was a disaster. More people in 2022 were clearly under contract for the next year, and no one was traded away, so fewer people to rip the team. The only guy they got rid of, Keuchel, ripped the team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 2 hours ago, Quin said: Hell, they were more unified for TLR. They completely lost the plot for Grifol. It's why he needs so many vet leaders playing FASTs on a train that there's no room for rookies. I think the players reluctantly bought into TLR because of his resume, but it didn't take long for things in the clubhouse to go south. It was already toxic when Pedro took over, and it sure doesn't look like anyone bought into his BS. It took even less time for him to prove that he had no clue what he was doing, and the toxicity began boiling over. Ricky was a bad game manager, but the players played hard for him and by every indication were a tight group behind the scenes. The unraveling began the moment the TLR rumors started swirling and the downward spiral ensued. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 The biggest surprise for me was TLR stayed out of clubhouse matters. Guys initially we're actually happy to play for him. Luis and TA had positive things to say. Liam said it was a positive reason for him to sign with the team. Only a few guys have ripped him after leaving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 Just now, Texsox said: The biggest surprise for me was TLR stayed out of clubhouse matters. Guys initially we're actually happy to play for him. Luis and TA had positive things to say. Liam said it was a positive reason for him to sign with the team. Only a few guys have ripped him after leaving. Every person you mentioned was being paid by the White Sox at the time they said positive things. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Every person you mentioned was being paid by the White Sox at the time they said positive things. And it was really freaking obvious things were falling apart just based on what was happening on the field over time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 6 minutes ago, Texsox said: The biggest surprise for me was TLR stayed out of clubhouse matters. Guys initially we're actually happy to play for him. Luis and TA had positive things to say. Liam said it was a positive reason for him to sign with the team. Only a few guys have ripped him after leaving. 5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Every person you mentioned was being paid by the White Sox at the time they said positive things. Plus Tony had some serious health issues so players aren’t going to rip in in that condition. There was plenty said while he was here and at least thought to be healthy in 2021, starting with the Mercedes and Liam Ghost Runner Fiascos his first plus month into the 2021 season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 A lot of clubhouse responsibility falls on the veterans of the team. Both Keuchel and Grandal come off as real assholes and it seemed pretty clear to me that they divided the clubhouse. I wouldn't be surprised if the chemistry and effort are much better this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 1 minute ago, TaylorStSox said: A lot of clubhouse responsibility falls on the veterans of the team. Both Keuchel and Grandal come off as real assholes and it seemed pretty clear to me that they divided the clubhouse. I wouldn't be surprised if the chemistry and effort are much better this year. Quote The White Sox knew they were signing one of the most dependable and accountable left-handed pitchers in baseball, but even management has been taken aback by his clubhouse leadership. “Well, contrary to popular belief,’’ White Sox vice president Ken Williams said, “numbers don’t tell the whole story. There is a human element to this game. There is a very real leadership and motivational component. And presence will always remain something that is very hard to quantify. You know it when you see it. “And this guy has got it.’’ https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2020/03/03/white-sox-dallas-keuchel-leadership-25000-team-dinner/4937202002/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Hit Men Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 2 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: A lot of clubhouse responsibility falls on the veterans of the team. Both Keuchel and Grandal come off as real assholes and it seemed pretty clear to me that they divided the clubhouse. I wouldn't be surprised if the chemistry and effort are much better this year. Liam didn’t call out individual names during his comments a few weeks ago, but Lynn and Kelly were the two I thought of in addition to Keuchel. My take was Grandal didn’t give a s%*#, including when Tim literally b**** slapped him for wanting to ditch the team to start his All Star Break early. He reminded me of Dornan (Corbin Bernsen) in Major League, including his lackadaisical efforts blocking balls or just about any defensive area as a catcher beyond framing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 30 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Every person you mentioned was being paid by the White Sox at the time they said positive things. Are you thinking they received a bonus for saying positive things? I know it doesn't fit the narrative we believe, but I'm not going to dismiss their public comments to guess what they really felt. If we are going to make some guesses I'll go with the guys appreciated a manager who left them alone to be professionals. And we learned that young professionals today need someone on their ass to perform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 1 minute ago, Texsox said: Are you thinking they received a bonus for saying positive things? I know it doesn't fit the narrative we believe, but I'm not going to dismiss their public comments to guess what they really felt. If we are going to make some guesses I'll go with the guys appreciated a manager who left them alone to be professionals. And we learned that young professionals today need someone on their ass to perform. I think it is difficult for a person to say something honest when their paycheck depends on them toeing the company line. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I think it is difficult for a person to say something honest when their paycheck depends on them toeing the company line. True in most situations without multiple year contacts. They could have just said something neutral but actual were positive. You didn't believe them which is the position I think of most Sox fans. Lying or not, the bottom line is they failed and it's likely they need a manager, they can't manage themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I think it is difficult for a person to say something honest when their paycheck depends on them toeing the company line. Especially on the network the team owns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 16 hours ago, Milkman delivers said: Out of curiosity, who or what do you blame for the toxic situation? Trump 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 56 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2020/03/03/white-sox-dallas-keuchel-leadership-25000-team-dinner/4937202002/ It's a fluff piece. If you believe 10% of what's written in those articles, well, I'm sure somebody would like to sell you a bridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 1 minute ago, TaylorStSox said: It's a fluff piece. If you believe 10% of what's written in those articles, well, I'm sure somebody would like to sell you a bridge. It's easy to be a "leader" when things are going well. Baseball isn't really a sport that lends itself to the rah rah pep talk. Being a leader in baseball usually just means doing your job on the field. Hard to be a leader when you've got an ERA around 6. In other sports in season practice is more important in a team sense, in baseball you're just doing individual drills for the most part. Paul Konerko going hard through his 1st base drills isn't going to sharpen Uribe at short stop and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurtCG Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 We gotta throw in Rick Hahn and Kenny Williams if we are playing the blame game here. These guys sat around while the ship sank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurtCG Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 1 hour ago, TaylorStSox said: A lot of clubhouse responsibility falls on the veterans of the team. Both Keuchel and Grandal come off as real assholes and it seemed pretty clear to me that they divided the clubhouse. I wouldn't be surprised if the chemistry and effort are much better this year. Terrible signings made by a terrible GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stinky Stanky Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 11 minutes ago, LittleHurtCG said: We gotta throw in Rick Hahn and Kenny Williams if we are playing the blame game here. These guys sat around while the ship sank. Just based on timing, the Burger trade was what got them fired. My 2 cents anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScootsMcGoots Posted March 12 Share Posted March 12 1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said: Plus Tony had some serious health issues so players aren’t going to rip in in that condition. There was plenty said while he was here and at least thought to be healthy in 2021, starting with the Mercedes and Liam Ghost Runner Fiascos his first plus month into the 2021 season. The TLR saga has Jerry's fingerprints all over it. I don't even blame Tony. Why wouldn't he accept the job if Jerry was offering it. That entire fiasco was all Jerry's fault. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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