Sox trade Andrew Vaughn to acquire Aaron Civale

[WestEddy]

28 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Hey he worked hard when he picked one fact and ignored all of the rest of them.  He's obviously right.

Well, I only said one thing, then thoroughly supported it when challenged. I'm not sure what other "facts" I've ignored. Is somebody blaming Tim Anderson for his own lack of sustained success a fact I need to not ignore?

[GreenSox]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Jake Diekman is another one who improved a lot as soon as the Sox dumped him and Chris Flexen was basically unhittable for the first three months of this season with the Cubs.  

Those were veterans who had a short stop-over with the Sox.  Eddy has a list in one of his posts of a bunch of players who had their best years with the Sox...many of those were stopover vets.  I doubt that the Sox either made or broke those guys.

But something was going on:  a relatively young core rapidly deteriorating at the same time.  Others (Madrigal and Vaughn) never developing.  Something happened...something was going on.  The  consistently barren farm (you can't blame the developers without blaming the drafters) exacerbated things....they had no replacements.  
Vaughn always looked like a hitter...that he's finally hitting isn't a huge surprise.  But the Sox really should find out what, if anything,  happened.
 

 Getz had stumbled here and there but thing were getting better.  Then came the deadline and his affirmative decision to essentially stand pat despite the condition of this team.   It's hard to get past that.

Edited August 21 by GreenSox

[T R U]

43 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

It's not a crusade. I've actually been trying to keep out of these. It's a single comment, where I'm not wrong. Yes, there are anecdotes where a player who was bad here flourished elsewhere. It would be cool if that would only happen to Eloy, Yoan, Tim Anderson, etc. 

But I'm gonna wait for Vaughn's full year, positive WAR season before I accept the Sox failed him. And Kopech shouldn't even be in that conversation for all he's been through, or more accurately, all of what we've been through. 

I made a pretty simple statement up front, which wasn't wrong. It doesn't take that much to acknowledge that before the peanut gallery kicks in with the BS. 

Go in peace. 

The Sox absolutely failed Vaughn, regardless of what he does in Milwaukee. He got very little minor league development time and then was thrown into the outfield immediately upon his major league arrival. Never played OF in college, never played OF in his brief minor league stop. Im not sure how that's even up for debate. 

[JoeC]

I’m honestly very confused.

This board was talking about how Kopech finally started listening to coaches. Right after his immaculate inning, he talked about how he started listening to the coaches about his pitch mix, etc., and we were talking about how he was starting to turn it around and reach his potential just in time for the trade deadline.

I’m trying to figure out what of the above narrative that @WestEddy has brought up is in dispute here.

Small sample size? Sure. But it happened, we talked about it, and we were left summarily disappointed with the return that Getz got for Kopech because of it.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

45 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Well, if you start a list of Erick Fedde, Jake Burger, Kendall Graveman, Kenyan Middleton, Liam Hendriks, Nick Madrigal, Jose Abreu, Dane Dunning, James McCann and Jose Quintana, you could make an equally erroneous argument about how players seem to fall off a table, or at least never reach the heights they reach in a Sox uniform. 

It is a crazy conspiracy theory. And not even a good one. 

Burger had basically the same length of success with Miami as he did with the Sox. Hendriks best years were with the A's. Dunning's best year was with Texas. Graveman's best year was with Sea/Hou. Quintana is still in the league with a 3.32 ERA at 36, 9 years after leaving the Sox. 

Middleton was a middle reliever who was on his fourth team with when he signed with the Sox, proceeded to have a 4.58 FIP while with the Sox. Not sure why he's included. Ironically enough, once the Sox traded Middleton, he had a shut down 14 innings for the Yankees.

 

[T R U]

10 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Those were veterans who had a short stop-over with the Sox.  Eddy has a list in one of his posts of a bunch of players who had their best years with the Sox...many of those were stopover vets.  I doubt that the Sox either made or broke those guys.

But something was going on:  a relatively young core rapidly deteriorating at the same time.  Others (Madrigal and Vaughn) never developing.  Something happened...something was going on.  The  consistently barren farm (you can't blame the developers without blaming the drafters) exacerbated things....they had no replacements.  
Vaughn always looked like a hitter...that he's finally hitting isn't a huge surprise.  But the Sox really should find out what, if anything,  happened.
 

 Getz had stumbled here and there but thing were getting better.  Then came the deadline and his affirmative decision to essentially stand pat despite the condition of this team.   It's hard to get past that.

The organization was doomed and ruined all good feelings they were building when they handed the keys over to Tony LaRussa. 

[WestEddy]

4 minutes ago, T R U said:

The Sox absolutely failed Vaughn, regardless of what he does in Milwaukee. He got very little minor league development time and then was thrown into the outfield immediately upon his major league arrival. Never played OF in college, never played OF in his brief minor league stop. Im not sure how that's even up for debate. 

Oh sure, I agree. That hot take was a little hasty. Little minor league development, the outfield and bouncing around the infield BS. The Sox screwed him over. 

But he was near a league average bat, and once given 1B and left alone, didn't improve. His horrible April/May played a not small part in sinking the 2024 team to historic depths and dropping him to AAA in 2025 was a positive jolt for this team. 

So, yeah, if Vaughn finishes out the year on a tear, then puts up numbers immediately next year. I'm going to want some answers. From Vaughn, mostly. He's a professional hitter. Independent hitting labs exist, if the Sox didn't provide that, which I believe they do, now. 

 

[almagest]

Vaughn might be coming back down to earth - last 7 games: .192/.300/.231/.531

[Chisoxfn]

35 minutes ago, JoeC said:

I’m honestly very confused.

This board was talking about how Kopech finally started listening to coaches. Right after his immaculate inning, he talked about how he started listening to the coaches about his pitch mix, etc., and we were talking about how he was starting to turn it around and reach his potential just in time for the trade deadline.

I’m trying to figure out what of the above narrative that @WestEddy has brought up is in dispute here.

Small sample size? Sure. But it happened, we talked about it, and we were left summarily disappointed with the return that Getz got for Kopech because of it.

I think on one hand - one could say regarding Kopech the Sox developmental team was aware of the issues - so give credit there.  The inverse of that is - the message wasn't being received by the player - so is that the player or is that how the message was being delivered and structure. Now in fairness - I think there is a balancing act of both - because what works for one player may not work for another and vice versa - development is very individualized.  And some players just don't listen - given Kopech's past - wouldn't shock me if that is where he was.

Regarding Vaughn - could be a bit of that - rock bottom scenario of going to minors and than clean start that just put him in a spot where it took all of that to drive a fresh look and change.  Now one question I truly have is - was the jolt to the minors the biggest indicator in which case - would the Sox being a bit more patient and taking that hard / aggressive approach - actually have worked and they could have brought Vaughn up later on this year and see the same results.  I think there might be some truth to the fact that the Sox traded Vaughn too early and they should have seen if their tough love approach could have worked - knowing at least with Vaughn they had the ability to keep him around next year had he made this sort of jump where as with Civale he's walking.  

[WhiteSox2023]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

And as far as you not getting over using May 1 as a divider for the quality of the Sox team as a whole, they made a series of changes, dropping some bad players, and bringing up their next core - that resulted in a different level of intensity. I'm not cherry picking 8 games and claiming they're a world series contender. I understand that looking at the season in sections doesn't feed your narrative of all bad, always bad, but if you only pay attention to the overall win-loss record, I wouldn't say you follow baseball with any depth. There's a s%*# ton to watch and follow. 

Your so called “peanut gallery” knew that it was just a hot streak.  If it truly was due to a “different level of intensity”, where did that “different level of intensity” disappear to this month?

Your favorite GM is currently on pace to not even win 100+ games in two entire seasons of 324 games of baseball.  While the offense has improved some from being terrible last season, it’s still ranked one of the lowest in the MLB.  Meanwhile, the rotation hasn’t taken a step forward outside of two starters in Smith and Martin.  Burke and Cannon are still questions marks.  And as usual, the bullpen is vomit-inducing.

Considering you have actually used the Sox MiLB team records to prove a point about their overall farm development, it’s quite ironic that the Sox MLB record apparently isn’t as important to you and I am too focused on it.

There is no narrative here, only facts.  To quote Carlos Zambrano — “We stinks.”

Edited August 21 by WhiteSox2023

[champagne030]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

No, I'm trying to prove my point by showing what Sox management and Kopech himself had said with the context of what actually happened. I laid out a pretty clear example of Kopech throwing 14 4-seamers in a row. The quality of his pitches didn't change in 2024. He just stopped throwing one single pitch every damn time so that the batter always knew what was coming. And there's a very clear line where he did it one way, then changed, and had vastly different results. Then Kopech said he didn't make any radical changes in LA. 

 

I think it was this thread where Murphy told Vaughn if he kept swinging at s%*# that he would sit.  Did the Dodgers tell Kopech if he kept throwing a 4 seamer every pitch he'd be in mop up duty?  How did he get to just shake off the call from the Sox dugout without any repercussions?  He didn't just stop on his own.  The better organization made him change.

[southsider2k5]

I think the greater point here is pretty clear, though the work to muddy the waters is definitely there.

The Sox have completely failed in the development game for a long period of time now.

While you can pull out the Kopech quotes that he didn't listen to the Sox (of course don't ask why that would happen), and leave out the ones where he quite literally states that the Dodgers changed some things too.

While you can look at Andrew Vaughn and see that MIlwaukee made some pretty big changes there too

It's leaving behind the bigger picture here.  The Sox have a litany of players who their people have labeled as lazy, disinterested, and everything else, which is a perfect Venn overlay of the players who failed with some sort of expectations.

The answer can't be that all of them were lazy and didn't listen.  If you are a teacher, and your classes consistently don't perform and don't care, at some point you have ask how good you are as a teacher.

Not every player comes to you understanding work ethic and what it takes to perform as a major leaguer.  That is quite literally what coaches and Dev staffs are for.  Many kids need to be taught work ethic, as their natural talent was enough to get by until their arrival at a level where everyone was that good.  The Sox problems aren't all "make up" problems, as much as they would love us to believe that.

Still to this date, we aren't really seeing changes in kids who saw both regimes, and our most successful players seem to be coming in from outside the organization.  Those are red flags.

[Snopek]

I feel like we could save 10 more pages of this thread if we just accept that the Sox failed Vaughn AND Vaughn failed the Sox.

[WestEddy]

11 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Your so called “peanut gallery” knew that it was just a hot streak.  If it truly was due to a “different level of intensity”, where did that “different level of intensity” disappear to this month?

Your favorite GM is currently on pace to not even win 100+ games in two entire seasons of 324 games of baseball.  While the offense has improved some from being terrible last season, it’s still ranked one of the lowest in the MLB.  Meanwhile, the rotation hasn’t taken a step forward outside of two starters in Smith and Martin.  Burke and Cannon are still questions marks.  And as usual, the bullpen is vomit-inducing.

There is no narrative here, only facts.  To quote Carlos Zambrano — “We stinks.”

What are you talking about? Yeah, nobody thought the 10-4 record coming out of the All-Star break was indicative of anything, so congrats? They're playing about a .430 rate in the 30 games since the All-Star break and are around a .400 record since May 1st. Are you actually claiming that the 7-23 Vaughn/Amaya/Jankowski/Maton team was as good or intense as the current version? They sure seem to be scoring a lot more runs now than in April. 

The bullpen has been bottom half of the middle third most of the way, I believe, which isn't great, but we were right next to the Dodgers in the last couple of lists people posted. I'd imagine that all of Smith, Martin, Burke and Cannon will be in the mix for next year's OD. 

I don't care how many games they lose during the rebuild. You could keep commenting that at me all you want, and it doesn't mean anything. You don't seem to grasp that teams go through hot and cold streaks, and neither are true indicators of talent level. That's a fact. 

[WestEddy]

25 minutes ago, champagne030 said:

I think it was this thread where Murphy told Vaughn if he kept swinging at s%*# that he would sit.  Did the Dodgers tell Kopech if he kept throwing a 4 seamer every pitch he'd be in mop up duty?  How did he get to just shake off the call from the Sox dugout without any repercussions?  He didn't just stop on his own.  The better organization made him change.

No, it's pretty demonstrable that he changed here before he left. How did he shake off a call? Like, are they supposed to bench him? They finally took him out of the closer's spot but still used him in leverage situations. 

I just find it amazing that a small bunch of people can't accept that Kopech may have finally taken advice and applied it before he left. Calling the White Sox the better organization is a bit much, but if that's what you think, then good on you. 

[almagest]

Relievers run hot and cold all the time. It's perfectly possible Kopech just rode a hot streak last year. 

Also, Kopech has made 8 appearances this season and hasn't pitched since June. People acting like he was saved by the Dodgers and he's some stud reliever now are just being ridiculous. The Sox have had plenty of known issues without inventing random nonsense to get mad about.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, WestEddy said:

No, the wrong people need to work on their wrong complex. I'm tired of quoting actual facts - things that actually happened, and that the people involved said actually happened, and wrong people dig in and argue that everybody on Earth's lying because acknowledging reality would mean the White Sox maybe do one thing right, and that would destroy their narratives. 

SoxTalk 2025: A Site for Wrong People

[caulfield12]

WestEddy is half right and half wrong.  Or 1/3rd right...lol.

The changes started in Chicago and Dodgers' GM Gomes noticed the improvement/s.

But to credit Getz/coaches too much is pushing it, at that point it was just a flier on Kopech instead of maximizing the return by fixing him...let's say in mid May.

 

https://www.justbaseball.com/mlb/michael-kopech-dodgers-what-changed/

 

"In actuality, there are two differences that can be found going back to the changes he first implemented in Chicago before the trade. The first is a difference in pitch mix. Kopech has reduced the use of his four-seam fastball and increased the use of his cutter, helping to keep hitters off balance in the box. 

These changes have also been accompanied by increased spin rates, particularly on his cutter. More spin has helped his cutter gain almost four inches of vertical movement. The pitch has been absolutely devastating, as it now has above-average horizontal and vertical movement.

Kopech has posted video game-type numbers with the pitch, getting an absurd 62.5% whiff percentage on his cutter since August 1. Over that same stretch, opposing hitters have not recorded a single hit off of the pitch. In other words, it has been one of the most dominant secondary offerings in baseball. 

Meanwhile, increased spin has slightly reduced movement on his four-seam fastball, which actually makes it a more effective offering."

Edited August 21 by caulfield12

[Lip Man 1]

My only comment to contribute is that your are talking about people and human nature.

Guys come to the Sox especially veterans (some because they have no place else to go), they see what is going on in the organization they quickly realize this team has no hope.

None, nada, nyet of really competing for anything even a winning season, and it gets to them. Beats them right down.

They may be trying just as hard but the results aren't there because mentally they are fried even if that is just subconsciously.

Somehow they go to a different organization that isn't a laughing stock and in many cases they perform better.

That's really not that hard to understand. Again that's human nature. 

[Jerksticks]

2 hours ago, almagest said:

Vaughn might be coming back down to earth - last 7 games: .192/.300/.231/.531

Don’t look now

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Sox had a 73 wRC+ in Match/April, and 91 since with bad defensive and base running numbers as a group. 

Is it better? Yes. It's also the 4th worst in baseball since April. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

What are you talking about? Yeah, nobody thought the 10-4 record coming out of the All-Star break was indicative of anything, so congrats? They're playing about a .430 rate in the 30 games since the All-Star break and are around a .400 record since May 1st. Are you actually claiming that the 7-23 Vaughn/Amaya/Jankowski/Maton team was as good or intense as the current version? They sure seem to be scoring a lot more runs now than in April. 

The bullpen has been bottom half of the middle third most of the way, I believe, which isn't great, but we were right next to the Dodgers in the last couple of lists people posted. I'd imagine that all of Smith, Martin, Burke and Cannon will be in the mix for next year's OD. 

I don't care how many games they lose during the rebuild. You could keep commenting that at me all you want, and it doesn't mean anything. You don't seem to grasp that teams go through hot and cold streaks, and neither are true indicators of talent level. That's a fact. 

A .400 win % equates to a 97 loss season. That’s awful. Without significant offseason signings, this team is most certainly a bottom 5 team in MLB next year for a 4th season straight..

[WhiteSox2023]

54 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

A .400 win % equates to a 97 loss season. That’s awful. Without significant offseason signings, this team is most certainly a bottom 5 team in MLB next year for a 4th season straight..

Per WE’s final paragraph, losses don’t mean anything during a rebuild, yet he continues to talk about an improved, albeit still pathetic winning percentage of .400 since May 1st.

So maybe only wins matter during a rebuild, but not the losses?

As a result, Getz can never look bad!  Amazing logic if your goal is to defend an awful GM.

Edited August 22 by WhiteSox2023

[WestEddy]

56 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

A .400 win % equates to a 97 loss season. That’s awful. Without significant offseason signings, this team is most certainly a bottom 5 team in MLB next year for a 4th season straight..

Now do the 7-23 start. Compare and contrast. Show your work. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

19 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Now do the 7-23 start. Compare and contrast. Show your work. 

It’s all suck. Major suckage. There’s no end to the suck until they get a new owner and new GM running the show.