Tigers Sign Damon - 1 yr, 8 mil; NTC

[chunk23]

You really shouldn't be counting minor league guys, because we know they won't spend much time on the 25-man roster.

 

So taking your list and making some adjustments based on how Ozzie is most likely to utilize his roster, our team's versatility looks like this:

 

C: A.J., Castro.

1B: Konerko, Kotsay.

2B: Beckham, Nix, Vizquel.

SS: Alexei, Vizquel, Nix.

3B: Teahen, Vizquel, Nix

RF: Quentin, Rios, Kotsay, Jones.

CF: Rios, Jones, Pierre.

LF: Pierre, Jones, Kotsay

 

*notes* I doubt Ozzie would ever plan on using Alexei and Teahen in the outfield, so lets strike those guys out of those positions. Also, lets just assume that Beckham, Alexei, and Teahen will be pencilled in at 2nd, SS, and 3B respectively in every game possible, because Ozzie usually prefers to have his starters stay at their everyday positions and have someone from the bench substitute for an injured player. This is why we never saw Quentin play anywhere else on the field except for LF, and why Ozzie rarely moved around Alexei and Beckham during the course of the season. It's only rare cases where Ozzie has players play out of position, such as when Dye played shortstop a few seasons ago, so we shouldn't really be considering starters' other positions as a method of verstatility. This is why it'd be good to have a DH type who can play in the field and sub for a player each day of the week instead of having a worthless DH-only player like Thome.

 

Do you really think Thome is worthless? You do know he was the Sox best hitter last year, right?

[SouthsideDon48]

Do you really think Thome is worthless? You do know he was the Sox best hitter last year, right?

The fact that he was our best hitter is pretty sad.

 

As far as I'm concerned, we never won a world series with him, so he never helped. Sure his home run won us game 163, but he didn't help us win in the postseason, did he?

 

All he did was clog up the basepaths, and when we got him the rest of the lineup adopted the swing-for-the-fences mentality.

 

 

[greg775]

All he did was clog up the basepaths, and when we got him the rest of the lineup adopted the swing-for-the-fences mentality.

 

I'm sick of the clog the basepaths argument. Who gives a f*** about that?

As far as worthless, you must think an awful lot of Sox players throughout history have been worthless cause we've won one WS in about a zillion years.

Thome beating the Twins was priceless.

It's not a one-man sport. Thome's home run vs. the Twins was special.

 

[Quin]

I'm sick of the clog the basepaths argument. Who gives a f*** about that?

As far as worthless, you must think an awful lot of Sox players throughout history have been worthless cause we've won one WS in about a zillion years.

Thome beating the Twins was priceless.

It's not a one-man sport. Thome's home run vs. the Twins was special.

 

The clog the bathpaths argument is old. Seriously. To clog the bases enough for them to be a problem, you have to get on base a lot, which Jim does.

 

Also, we would have won with Thome in 2006 had the pitching not crapped out.

[dmbjeff]

The clog the bathpaths argument is old. Seriously. To clog the bases enough for them to be a problem, you have to get on base a lot, which Jim does.

 

Also, we would have won with Thome in 2006 had the pitching not crapped out.

 

 

People act like you needed to hit 3 singles to get the guy home. Granted he couldn't score from 1st on a double most of the time, but the guy got the job done and could have gotten it done part time vs RHP certainly.

[ThunderBolt]

As far as I'm concerned, we never won a world series with him, so he never helped. Sure his home run won us game 163, but he didn't help us win in the postseason, did he?

You do realize that by your definition 20 members of our 25 man and 35 members of our 40 are useless, right? 'Cause they haven't helped win us a World Series. This is an awful attempt at ignoring the solid production Thome gave us for a few years.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Thunderbolt

[SoxAce]

People act like you needed to hit 3 singles to get the guy home. Granted he couldn't score from 1st on a double most of the time, but the guy got the job done and could have gotten it done part time vs RHP certainly.

 

Funny thing is.. Thome is actually FASTER than Konerko. Konerko is one of the top 3 slowest guys in the game right now. (not to mention one of the worst rally killers of the last 50 years, if I remember correctly) If it wasn't for 2005, class act/leader, and what he's meant to our sox org. since he's dawned the uniform, I probably would hate the guy. I'm sure most of us will be happy to see only he will probably struggle on scoring from 2nd to home or 1st to 3rd.. maybe A.J. (though he's probably the best or second best baserunner [next to Teahen] on the team) but thats about it.

Edited February 20, 2010 by SoxAce

[dmbjeff]

Funny thing is.. Thome is actually FASTER than Konerko. Konerko is one of the top 3 slowest guys in the game right now. (not to mention one of the worst rally killers of the last 50 years, if I remember correctly) If it wasn't for 2005, class act/leader, and what he's meant to our sox org. since he's dawned the uniform, I probably would hate the guy. I'm sure most of us will be happy to see only he will probably struggle on scoring from 2nd to home or 1st to 3rd.. maybe A.J. (though he's probably the best or second best baserunner [next to Teahen] on the team) but thats about it.

 

I am all for having a more athletic and speedier lineup, but there is still room for a few slow and powerful guys in a lineup if they are productive.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Funny thing is.. Thome is actually FASTER than Konerko. Konerko is one of the top 3 slowest guys in the game right now. (not to mention one of the worst rally killers of the last 50 years, if I remember correctly) If it wasn't for 2005, class act/leader, and what he's meant to our sox org. since he's dawned the uniform, I probably would hate the guy. I'm sure most of us will be happy to see only he will probably struggle on scoring from 2nd to home or 1st to 3rd.. maybe A.J. (though he's probably the best or second best baserunner [next to Teahen] on the team) but thats about it.

 

The slowest Konerko can be in the league is 4th slowest. The 3 Molina brothers lock down the bottom 3 spots. They have stronger arms than they do legs.

[Lillian]

Damon wants the 2 yrs and Detroit is the ONLY team offering him that right

 

Perhaps he does indeed want 2 years, but do he and his wife want 2 years in Detroit?

 

[beck72]

We have a hole in LF, might have a hole in CF, and have a hole at DH.

I'd take issue with the first two holes. There are questions around Pierre and Rios, certainly. Yet their track records suggest that they're more likely to be avg or above than below avg [which in my mind is a hole]. I know DH is the weakest link right now. Maybe that's why Damon filling that would be a big boost in most of our eyes. But the Sox weak areas on offense are not nearly as big as 2009 with Anderson/ Wise in Cf, Getz at 2b and Fields at 3b as they've had success in the bigs. Not to mention the pitching staff with 4-5 questionable and the bullpen not as strong leaving Spring.

 

Looked at as a whole, though, the 2010 sox "holes" are far less than 2009. Esp. with the pitching set up to be very special and potentially dominating. I'd rather the sox add another bat to the DH mix. Yet I can understand the "wait and see at the ASB how big the DH hole is/ what other holes are" because the sox may need the extra cash to acquire another bat or arm. Say Thornton or Jenks/ Putz goes down and the Sox are leading the division. The sox would have to overpay in terms of prospects and cash to get that bullpen arm. It's far easier and cheaper to get a bat for DH mid-season than it would be to get a bullpen arm.

Edited February 20, 2010 by beck72

[WCSox]

And a big problem here is that we have not been able to develop league average players to plug into positions so you aren't paying big major league deals at so many offensive positions when you are on a budget. Only beckham and Quentin qualify as such.

 

Danks, Floyd, and Thornton say hi. Jenks was relatively cheap for a while, and Hudson will likely be rounding out the rotation next year. Developing young pitching frees up funds to sign veteran talent when guys like Getz, Nix, and Fields don't pan out. I agree that the Sox haven't developed enough strong position player talent from within, but their development of young/cheap pitching has been pretty impressive and it's helped the team financially.

 

And you know what, I don't give a damn about having the pitching staff that we do if it doesn't make the playoffs.

 

This pitching staff alone may carry this team to the playoffs. An attempt to re-create the mid-'90s Indians offense at the expense of pitching will almost ensure that this team falls short.

 

Frankly, I don't care about simply "making the playoffs" anymore. If this team doesn't actually win a post-season series, they've disappointed me. The '08 team was absolutely loaded with talent from top to bottom, but played to the level of the 4th or 5th best team in the AL. I'm tired of that crap.

 

[MattZakrowski]

The fact that he was our best hitter is pretty sad.

 

As far as I'm concerned, we never won a world series with him, so he never helped. Sure his home run won us game 163, but he didn't help us win in the postseason, did he?

 

All he did was clog up the basepaths, and when we got him the rest of the lineup adopted the swing-for-the-fences mentality.

 

Yeah! And Ted Williams sucked too!

[Kyyle23]

Yeah! And Ted Williams sucked too!

 

Ted Williams was one of, if not the, best hitters in the history of the game. Speed on the basepaths can be forgiven if you are hitting .400.

 

This whole argument is silly. The DH has been neglected, we all recognize that. There is still room for improvement and the will to do it by the general manager. Thome wasnt going to make this team an instant contender for the title, his production and health has been suspect within his own standards the past couple of years. he can still get hot and hit bombs all over the place for a few weeks, but he can also go on a cold streak where he strikes out 2-3 times a game for weeks at a time. We ALL b****ed about a slow lift and pull lineup for years, and when that was taken away, now we all b**** about it being gone. Thome is damn near 40 years old, his past with the team was appreciated, but it was time to go.

[Dick Allen]

Perhaps he does indeed want 2 years, but do he and his wife want 2 years in Detroit?

I think people are putting way too much in downtown Detroit as a dump in swaying Damon. Some of the close-in suburbs are very nice. They have 4 kids, 2 are in school, so Damon's family probably doesn't join him at least full-time until June and probably goes back to Orlando by the end of August. So its 3 months at the most per year, plus its six weeks extra he gets to stay at home vs. signing with the White Sox as the Tigers train not far from his home.

 

I think his only reason for taking less cash is he thinks the White Sox are the superior team.

 

I'm sure everyone on this board would probably live in downtown Detroit for a year for $1 million.

[caulfield12]

But very few on this board have lived in Manhattan previously on a salary of $15 million...either.

 

It's kind of like if you were used to driving a BMW and then they asked you to switch to a Ford Focus. Now if you'd never driven the Benz or BMW, it would be MUCH easier to get acclimated to a "middle class" compact sedan. It just depends on what expectations you have...

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Its ironic that on the same message board there is such hatred for DH only type "base cloggers" but also a thread of admiration for Frank Thomas. Should the Sox have dumped Frank when it became very apparent his glove needed to be thrown in the garbage?

 

The Sox need a hitter. Its not a requirement that he be a good defender. With the White Sox it hasn't been a requirement the guys out in the field be good defenders. It would be like a strip club requiring graduate degrees to be a stripper.

 

If MLB baseball ever abolishes the DH, then and only then should the DH-only player be totally ignored. If a guy can help your team score runs and you have an opening at a hitter-only position, he should absolutely be considered.

 

I hope Damon signs, but if he doesn't, I hope it doesn't take the White Sox as long as it took them with the Wises, and Lillibridges and Owens of 2009 to determine they have made a mistake. Every game counts. The longer they wait to fix it, the harder it will be to overcome.

[iamshack]

Danks, Floyd, and Thornton say hi. Jenks was relatively cheap for a while, and Hudson will likely be rounding out the rotation next year. Developing young pitching frees up funds to sign veteran talent when guys like Getz, Nix, and Fields don't pan out. I agree that the Sox haven't developed enough strong position player talent from within, but their development of young/cheap pitching has been pretty impressive and it's helped the team financially.

 

Really agree with the bolded here. While we have certainly showcased a major shortcoming with developing position players in recent years, Kenny's acquisition of Floyd and Danks has honestly probably negated a lot of the negative financial effects of said shortcoming.

[bmags]

You would think so, but that wouldn't explain putting two vomit level players at DH when your offense is already below average.

[Springfield Soxfan]

Look, I really wanted/still want Damon to come, but if he doesn't, you know that KW is still going to look to improve/make a deal to help this team!

[iamshack]

I think people are putting way too much in downtown Detroit as a dump in swaying Damon. Some of the close-in suburbs are very nice. They have 4 kids, 2 are in school, so Damon's family probably doesn't join him at least full-time until June and probably goes back to Orlando by the end of August. So its 3 months at the most per year, plus its six weeks extra he gets to stay at home vs. signing with the White Sox as the Tigers train not far from his home.

 

I think his only reason for taking less cash is he thinks the White Sox are the superior team.

 

I'm sure everyone on this board would probably live in downtown Detroit for a year for $1 million.

Great points, DA. It's not as if Damon and his wife are going to be living in the slums of Detroit or something. There are very nice areas in every American metropolitan area (yes, even Detroit), and I'm sure Johnny could find an amazing condo in the city with all the amenities of New York without even leaving his building. I live in a condo building on the north end of the Strip here in Vegas (which has been hit pretty hard as well by the housing crisis). We've got units in this building going for $30 million still despite the fact that half the units are on the market in short sales. We have every amenity in this building, to the point where I don't have to leave for days at a time if I don't want to. I'm sure there are similar buildings in Detroit where Mrs. Damon could live in anonymous luxury for weeks without having to set foot on the concrete of Detroit if she doesn't want to.

 

They could also rent a luxury home in Auburn Hills (or some other affluent suburban area) as DA says. It isn't as though they are going to have to live in squallor in the inner-city if Damon indeed is forced to play for the Tigers for a year or two.

 

Certainly Detroit isn't the vibrant city of culture that Chicago is right now, but I am sure Mrs. Damon will make do. I am certain the Damon's have other homes she can stay at and I am also certain she can travel as often as her little heart desires.

[caulfield12]

Besides Borchard and the failure of all the first round drift picks (and yes, Borchard did net us Thornton even)...the biggest "in your face" condemnation of the minor league system has to be the "forced" acquisition of Alex Rios.

 

If KW didn't think Brian Anderson was the answer in CF, he wouldn't have traded away Rowand and Chris B. Young, not to mention Jeremy Reed and Anthony Webster. The other prime example of a forced acquisition to plug in a gap was the Nick Swisher trade, arguably one of KW's worst in the second half of his career, where he's made significantly fewer mistakes compared to the first 2-3 seasons on the job.

 

When you look at the payroll inflexibility, it begins and ends with Rios and Konerko. Konerko's understandable. Peavy has a huge contract, but he's emminently tradeable if we had to dump salary (barring injury), Rios is a much more difficult proposition if he doesn't return to form.

 

Danks, Floyd, Beckham, Quentin and Alexei are the five prime examples of why this team has a shot to win it all. Jenks used to be in this group as well, until 2009/2010, in terms of cost/benefit analysis.

 

You could also make an argument that if Dayan Viciedo had come along with the bat quickly enough, he could have been able to take over for Konerko at 1B this year and that would have ended up providing the flexibility to spend an extra $14-16 million instead of just $4 million, which is currently leaving us $2-3 million short on Damon. Or the Linebrink contract, that's another hole in the budget, so hopefully we can get something out of him again this year.

Edited February 20, 2010 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Besides Borchard and the failure of all the first round drift picks (and yes, Borchard did net us Thornton even)...the biggest "in your face" condemnation of the minor league system has to be the "forced" acquisition of Alex Rios.

 

If KW didn't think Brian Anderson was the answer in CF, he wouldn't have traded away Rowand and Chris B. Young, not to mention Jeremy Reed and Anthony Webster.

 

When you look at the payroll inflexibility, it begins and ends with Rios and Konerko. Konerko's understandable. Peavy has a huge contract, but he's emminently tradeable if we had to dump salary (barring injury), Rios is a much more difficult proposition if he doesn't return to form.

 

Danks, Floyd, Beckham, Quentin and Alexei are the five prime examples of why this team has a shot to win it all. Jenks used to be in this group as well, until 2009/2010, in terms of cost/benefit analysis.

 

You could also make an argument that if Dayan Viciedo had come along with the bat quickly enough, he could have been able to take over for Konerko at 1B this year and that would have ended up providing the flexibility to spend an extra $14-16 million instead of just $4 million, which is currently leaving us $2-3 million short on Damon. Or the Linebrink contract, that's another hole in the budget, so hopefully we can get something out of him again this year.

 

KW obviously had been negotiating with Toronto about acquiring Rios, and it had to include Toronto eating some salary and the Sox sending viable players back, because if KW really wanted him and was willing to pay him the entire salary, why would he have risked Toronto placing him on waivers and having another team claim him?

 

He obviously put the claim in to block. I'm sure he liked Rios as a player and probably coveted him, but not that contract. I'm pretty sure KW was as surprised as anyone his claim was successful or unsuccessful depending upon how you look at it. The contract is burden especially if Rios continues to play as he has.

 

As for Konerko, it was widely thought the White Sox probably went at least a year too long with their contract, but that was after a WS win and Paulie was a hero. Losing him after that would have hurt some of the momentum they had built. Even with the 20/20 hindsight, and as much as I like to rip some of their mistakes, you can't give them a hard time about that contract.

[iamshack]

You could also make an argument that if Dayan Viciedo had come along with the bat quickly enough, he could have been able to take over for Konerko at 1B this year and that would have ended up providing the flexibility to spend an extra $14-16 million instead of just $4 million, which is currently leaving us $2-3 million short on Damon. Or the Linebrink contract, that's another hole in the budget, so hopefully we can get something out of him again this year.

Ahh, yes. I keep forgetting about Viciedo! Can't wait to see more of this kid this spring. From all accounts within our organization, he is everything we were told he was at the time of the signing. Would be great to see us not miss a beat in our production at 1b despite trading away Carter and Allen...

[iamshack]

KW obviously had been negotiating with Toronto about acquiring Rios, and it had to include Toronto eating some salary and the Sox sending viable players back, because if KW really wanted him and was willing to pay him the entire salary, why would he have risked Toronto placing him on waivers and having another team claim him?

 

He obviously put the claim in to block. I'm sure he liked Rios as a player and probably coveted him, but not that contract. I'm pretty sure KW was as surprised as anyone his claim was successful or unsuccessful depending upon how you look at it. The contract is burden especially if Rios continues to play as he has.

 

As for Konerko, it was widely thought the White Sox probably went at least a year too long with their contract, but that was after a WS win and Paulie was a hero. Losing him after that would have hurt some of the momentum they had built. Even with the 20/20 hindsight, and as much as I like to rip some of their mistakes, you can't give them a hard time about that contract.

You've been arguing this for some time now and I just don't know how one can argue it was "obviously" a claim to block. The Organization has a very good history at bringing in players down on their luck and turning them around through coaching and opportunity. And despite the fact that the contract looks like an albatross when Rios plays at his absolute worst, he is very capable of returning his performance to a level where not only is the contract acceptable, but where it becomes club-friendly, especially considering the value his defense alone brings.

 

I don't find it hard to believe under these circumstances that Kenny put in the claim because he actually wanted the player. That isn't to say that he didn't think Toronto would throw in some cash in exchange for some minor league talent, but you're making it seem as if KW was completely unprepared to take on the player and the contract, which simply does not gel with his past history or that of the Organization.