Andy the Clown Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 a player has 1 bad year and he's pretty much dead to this board. Bruce had a fairly serious knee injury and it affected him all year. You can't just pretend like the guy didn't have an OPS above .800 the 3 years before last. If he was 34 it would be a serious concern, but he's freaking 27 and people are saying things like "deteriorate and decline"? There is such a thing as a down year. He's been worthless away from Cincy his entire career. Look it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 10:30 PM) He's been worthless away from Cincy his entire career. Look it up. Home - .258/.335/.507 AWay - .245/.312/.428 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunt Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 10:22 PM) No sweat. Never said it was straight Q for JB, btw. Ya I'm almost more interested in seeing what this could expand to. I have complete faith that Rick would make the right deal for the team if the opportunity presented itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) To me, Quintana is one of the top 10 or 20 most valuable players in baseball when considering salary/contract. He'd be a triple figure guy if he reached the free agent market right now. If we consider a trade, it better be insanely advantageous for our on-field product. And while I like the targeting of Bruce in principle, there are some weird trends with his numbers. Walk rate has gone down for 5 straight seasons, K rate has gone up for 6 straight seasons. Defense seems to be falling off. Looking more and more like this other former Cincy LHB that I know Edited November 21, 2014 by Jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macsandz Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 10:27 PM) Then what did you mean by Q+? Is that with acquiring a pitcher too? To acquire Bruce, it's gonna take a larger deal. Likely 3rd team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Add me the group that wouldn't do Q alone for Bruce, let alone Q+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunt Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I could see a situation where it could be Bruce and Latos for Q and prospects of the Sox can get Latos extended. If it ended up being more along the lines of Q being sent straight up for Bruce, I'd have a hard time swallowing that one. Would need some specs coming back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macsandz Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 QUOTE (Dunt @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 10:45 PM) I could see a situation where it could be Bruce and Latos for Q and prospects of the Sox can get Latos extended. If it ended up being more along the lines of Q being sent straight up for Bruce, I'd have a hard time swallowing that one. Would need some specs coming back. +1 That's a good call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 10:42 PM) To acquire Bruce, it's gonna take a larger deal. Likely 3rd team. Where does this leave Melky if you dont mind me asking Bucket? I really appreciate the info you've given us so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 QUOTE (Dunt @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 10:45 PM) I could see a situation where it could be Bruce and Latos for Q and prospects of the Sox can get Latos extended. If it ended up being more along the lines of Q being sent straight up for Bruce, I'd have a hard time swallowing that one. Would need some specs coming back. I don't know if this kind of move helps us enough. Latos and Q put up similar numbers when healthy but Latos had a tough time in that department last year from what I've read. Q has no injury concerns, less MLB arm-mileage, is lefty and has a way better contract situation. Is that swap worth the acquisition of Bruce? I dunno it seems like a blow to the young controlled core a bit, plus we still have rotation issues and we don't have Q to trade anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) The Reds aren't going to get Q with Bruce Almighty. Of course, Cincy's going to overvalue Bruce as the player he was before 2014 when it might take him another year to get back to that form (not to mention the league adjustment and the fact he's never done any better than an average LF/RF outside of their bandbox stadium)...and then it might never happen. As has been noted, declining BB totals and rising K numbers, etc. Some alarming trends, at the very least. And the Reds certainly aren't going to give us Latos or Cueto to replace Quintana unless there are SIGNIFICANT prospects coming back from the Sox. Edited November 21, 2014 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 The number "32" is a kiss of death and should have been retired to the white sox hall of shame... Never to be worn again... Ever... By any circumstance... Ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) As someone who has been talking up acquiring Bruce all offseason, this info pleases me. I'd love to have Bruce. as Bucket has clarified, if it's Bruce plus we get another SP for Quintana, then I would be able to swallow that. After not believing what we were seeing was real out of Q for the first 2 seasons, and throwing him in every trade scenario I could think of, I've finally turned the corner on him and wouldn't want to see him leave unless we were getting 2 major league, quality pieces back. Obviously Bruce would be a huge upgrade for our OF. Instantly becomes our 2nd best offensive player after Abreu. But trading Q and not getting a decent starter in return would feel counter-intuitive. Seeing Rock's comment about the Sox possibly going after pitchers with 1 year left, that could mean Bruce getting paired with someone like Latos or Leake from Cincinnati. Then when a 3rd team is getting involved, I start to think maybe Bruce plus a pitcher from another team. The Padres have been said to be shopping starters, and Ian Kennedy would fit that bill. Or maybe Zimmermann from the Nationals, as we heard a rumor about him for Starlin Castro earlier in the offseason. Maybe that 3rd team is the Cubs. Sox end up with Bruce and Zimmermann. THAT would be a blockbuster move. Maybe the Sox send Q to the Reds and Montas to the Cubs? Cubs send Castro to the Nats, Nats send Zimmerman to Sox and Austin Voth to the Cubs, Reds send Bruce to the Sox, and Leake to the Nats? That's so many players to be moved, and I also just realized that's a rare 4-team trade. Hah, too much brainstorming. So if it's Quintana for Bruce + Latos/Leake/Kennedy/Zimmermann (Montas included), then I think I'd be okay making that move if the Sox were also able to sign an arm like McCarthy or even Shields. Edited November 21, 2014 by Chilihead90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) Okay, Bruce is going to cost $37.5 million for the next three years, assuming they don't buy out his 2017 contract. But aren't Leake/Latos/Kennedy going to become free agents? If they COULD extend Latos before FA, then the Reds are going to ask for a pretty good package of minor leaguers... So it would essentially be like trading 3 years of "relatively affordable" Bruce, 3-4 expensive years of Latos (with the extension) for Quintana's six super affordable years and at least one significant minor leaguer (Danish, Montas, Anderson...possibly Hawkins). Edited November 21, 2014 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickofypres Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Q + prospects for Bruce + Latos, or whomever doesn't sit well with me. I'd rather hold on to Q. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 21, 2014 -> 12:29 AM) Okay, Bruce is going to cost $37.5 million for the next three years, assuming they don't buy out his 2017 contract. But aren't Leake/Latos/Kennedy going to become free agents? If they COULD extend Latos before FA, then the Reds are going to ask for a pretty good package of minor leaguers... So it would essentially be like trading 3 years of "relatively affordable" Bruce, 3-4 expensive years of Latos (with the extension) for Quintana's six super affordable years and at least one significant minor leaguer (Danish, Montas, Anderson...possibly Hawkins). I only reason I mention Leake/Latos/Kennedy/Zimmermann whom all have 1 year left on their contracts, is because Rock said this..... "Id keep an eye on one of those guys that are free agents next year as well. There are a few that fit with what they are trying to do." I was trying to fit the things he was saying with the things Bucket was saying. Maybe they go after Andrew Cashner who has 2 years left or Tyson Ross who has 4 years left instead, I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy the Clown Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 +1 That's a good call. That's scary to hear, since Latos is considered by some to be damaged goods due to a significant velocity decrease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venom4789 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Considering Q's contract we need to get a lot more back i feel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 The problem is Cincy Reds fans would freak out because Bruce and Latos are "name" players and Quintana's virtually unknown except to baseball insiders. I'm not even sure the Reds could deal with the PR fallout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beautox Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I'm not against moving Q but it has to be for the right deal, but Bruce to me isn't enough. The trends on his numbers worry me, as others have said 5 straight years of BB% decline 6 straight years of K% increase. He's got 25.5 guaranteed the next three years and 37.5 total if they pick up his option. Players like him and Cargo are the right type to target but I'm against giving up such a huge piece of the sox core and taking on their respective contracts while giving up so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (beautox @ Nov 21, 2014 -> 04:07 AM) I'm not against moving Q but it has to be for the right deal, but Bruce to me isn't enough. The trends on his numbers worry me, as others have said 5 straight years of BB% decline 6 straight years of K% increase. He's got 25.5 guaranteed the next three years and 37.5 total if they pick up his option. Players like him and Cargo are the right type to target but I'm against giving up such a huge piece of the sox core and taking on their respective contracts while giving up so much. Don't worry. The White Sox will not trade Q for Bruce. Q is a more valuable player and is owed less money the next 5 years than Bruce the next 3. If you are trading Q, with his contract, if you are going to take on over $10 million a season in additional payroll, you don't do it on a player trendind downward like Bruce. This whole idea is silly. Q is a core piece. He is going nowhere unless blown away. Jay Bruce doesn't blow anyone away. I have seen it suggested the Reds include a guy like Latos. Why would the White Sox take on an additional $20+ million per year to downgrade their rotation and hope that Bruce bounces back? Q put up a 5.3 WAR in 2014 and will be paid $800k more than Zach Duke the next 3 years. Edited November 21, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 21, 2014 -> 10:39 AM) Don't worry. The White Sox will not trade Q for Bruce. Q is a more valuable player and is owed less money the next 5 years than Bruce the next 3. If you are trading Q, with his contract, if you are going to take on over $10 million a season in additional payroll, you don't do it on a player trendind downward like Bruce. This whole idea is silly. Q is a core piece. He is going nowhere unless blown away. Jay Bruce doesn't blow anyone away. I have seen it suggested the Reds include a guy like Latos. Why would the White Sox take on an additional $20+ million per year to downgrade their rotation and hope that Bruce bounces back? Q put up a 5.3 WAR in 2014 and will be paid $800k more than Zach Duke the next 3 years. if the Sox FO feels that something like this needs to be done, they will do it. pls don't get me wrong, I would hate this move as anybody. so many scenarios can happen, it is unnerving to just sit and wait.. edit... I found this link. http://www.prosportsdaily.com/Headlines/Ex...rticleId=330427 Edited November 21, 2014 by LDF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I llike Jay Bruce and would love to see him on the Sox. But, unless the Sox get back another ML pitcher, I would very much dislike giving up Quintana. Q is a very good pitcher who is extremely cheap. He's more valuable than just Jay Bruce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 20, 2014 -> 08:56 PM) Call me skepical of this"inside source". Rock, I believe.20 minutes afte mlbtraderumors comes up with Jay Bruce being available, this comes up. I would bet my home the White Sox wouldn't offer Q straight up for Bruce, let alome Q+. He is playing you guys. Speaking of "playing you"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 21, 2014 -> 05:39 AM) Don't worry. The White Sox will not trade Q for Bruce. Q is a more valuable player and is owed less money the next 5 years than Bruce the next 3. If you are trading Q, with his contract, if you are going to take on over $10 million a season in additional payroll, you don't do it on a player trendind downward like Bruce. This whole idea is silly. Q is a core piece. He is going nowhere unless blown away. Jay Bruce doesn't blow anyone away. I have seen it suggested the Reds include a guy like Latos. Why would the White Sox take on an additional $20+ million per year to downgrade their rotation and hope that Bruce bounces back? Q put up a 5.3 WAR in 2014 and will be paid $800k more than Zach Duke the next 3 years. This Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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