MLB considering 154 game and delayed schedule

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

Ok, there's a misunderstanding here. 

The teams at the top compete with each other. They spend.

The teams in the middle to the bottom....what are they doing? Are they trying to get to the top or the bottom? I think we know what's happening there. 

I also don't think that we can have an honest discussion about this unless we have some sort of inflation indicator for MLB payrolls and CPI itself. 

100M in 2011 is not the same as 100M in 2021. 

In that span we've had the best players go from getting 200M in a contract to nearly 400M. 

Again, WAY more teams were at 100 150, AND 200 million in payroll in that 5 year span. Top, middle, and bottom payrolls all increased. Everything expanded. That is literally the point. Overall payrolls went up as did payrolls for teams at the top, middle, and bottom of the scales.

Your "top" contract numbers aren't actually accurate either. 

We have gone from Arods 275  to Cole's 324 or Harpers 330, which actually has about the same AAV as Arods deal from 12 years ago. Even if you boil it down to AAV, it has gone from 27.5 to 36 in 12 years.  That is about 3% per year on the top end.

I know you are trying to make up some new goalpost that works here, but nothing you have said is actual reality.

[VAfan]

I don't think the sky is falling with the expanded 14-team proposal. 

3 division winners in each league. 4 wild cards. Top seed get a bye. Second seed gets to choose opponent from 5-7th seed. After they choose, 3rd seed chooses, and 4th seed gets the remainder. 

What is so terrible about that?  

The White Sox should do really well in this scenario. They have 3 TOR pitchers, and can develop more in Crochet and Kopech. They have one of the best bullpens in the game, which plays in the postseason. They have a powerhouse lineup that also has speed and can manufacture runs. And they have a manager who is highly experienced managing postseason games. 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

 

I suggest all of you who think that expanded playoffs are a good idea, read this thread. 

The NFL and NBA alone prove this wrong. 

[BigHurt3515]

Love waiting until a few weeks until Spring Training to try and bring this up

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, poppysox said:

Living wage arguments fall on deaf ears when you talk about millionaire ballplayers vs billionaire owners.  If this was an argument that ballclubs should hold down the cost of a hotdog, ticket, parking, beer, and soda I would be all in.  I really fear that we are approaching when fans are in decline because they can't afford to attend it.  For those of you who haven't gone to a minor league game...you're missing a treat.  A great seat costs $10 and the food price is like fast food pricing anywhere.  Parking can be free up to a few bucks.  No wonder they have nice crowds where I have gone.  The fan pays the freight on this great sport...owners and players should do more to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The issue isn't that baseball tickets are too expensive, it's that the average joe/jane isn't getting paid enough. 

Yes, baseball players are millionaires and it's really easy to dismiss it as millionaires vs billionaires, but the dynamic is the same one that's happening in everyday life. 

It's on a much larger monetary scale in baseball, and it might fall on deaf ears, but the basic struggle is the same as all of us go through every day. I know on a practical level the average person is much less financially well-off, but pointing it out anyway. 

[Jack Parkman]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The NFL and NBA alone prove this wrong. 

The NBA and NFL have a salary floor. Baseball doesn't. Massive difference. 

The NFL's floor is 89% of the cap. The NBA's is 88.8% of the cap. 

Every team in those leagues must spend as a minimum 178M of a 200M cap. 

It's apples and oranges. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

The NBA and NFL have a salary floor. Baseball doesn't. Massive difference. 

The NFL's floor is 90% of the cap. It's not even a reasonable comparison. 

Literally none of what you have said actually holds up to fact checking. None of it.

Show some actual facts here. 

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Literally none of what you have said actually holds up to fact checking. None of it.

Show some actual facts here. 

I just looked up the floor in the NFL and NBA and they're both roughly 89% of the cap. 

That means that if the cap was 200M, every team MUST by the rules of the CBA, spend 178M on payroll. 

The MLB "cap"(luxury tax) is 210M for 2021, so that would require each team to spend 186.9M on payroll to be at an equivalent level to the NBA and NFL. 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

I just looked up the floor in the NFL and NBA and they're both roughly 89% of the cap. 

That means that if the cap was 200M, every team MUST by the rules of the CBA, spend 178M on payroll. 

Let go of this and get back to baseball.  Even if you want to quibble on this you haven't shown anything approaching what you are rambling on about in baseball.

[Chicago White Sox]

Hard salary caps and floors would be fantastic if you want parity, but I doubt the owners ever give into that without a strike.

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Let go of this and get back to baseball.  Even if you want to quibble on this you haven't shown anything approaching what you are rambling on about in baseball.

There's no comparison between baseball and the other leagues because of the lack of a salary floor.

Even though the luxury tax threshold isn't officially a salary cap, the penalties for repeat overages make it a de facto one. The MLB owners have the best of both worlds. They have a cap and no floor.  

Edited February 1, 2021 by Jack Parkman

[soulfly]

8 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Literally none of what you have said actually holds up to fact checking. None of it.

Show some actual facts here. 

I mean, there literally are floors in both of those leagues.  I don't think you took very long to "fact check" that.

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, mqr said:

I’d give it two years before I never sat down watched a baseball game again if they expand to 16 teams. What’s the point?

the playoff teams are decided in March, and the playoffs themselves are totally random. Fuck all that. 

I follow the regular season, primarily my rotisserie teams and the White Sox, but in terms of the playoffs I typically don’t watch or follow closely.

I didn’t care last year after the Sox were out. If they went to sixteen teams permanent I wouldn’t care, or even  bother to get Sox playoff tickets. It was special to go to all the games in 1983 and 2005, because the team earned a valid birth.  Stepping up to buy tickets for a 82-80 “postseason team”, who gives a shit if they win some random crapshoot. 

Four (four eight team divisions post expansion) or six (Division champs #2 vs. #3 best if three) teams are the ideal playoff formats, in terms of rewarding actual 154/162 season. If a team is not good enough to win a four or five team division over six months, than you shouldn’t be eligible to be a “World Champion” on the basis of a 3-4 week tournament. Period.

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I follow the regular season, primarily my rotisserie teams and the White Sox, but in terms of the playoffs I typically don’t watch or follow closely.

I didn’t care last year after the Sox were out. If they went to sixteen teams permanent I wouldn’t care, or even  bother to get Sox playoff tickets. It was special to go to all the games in 1983 and 2005, because the team earned a valid birth.  Stepping up to buy tickets for a 82-80 “postseason team”, who gives a shit if they win some random crapshoot. 

Four (four eight team divisions post expansion) or six (Division champs #2 vs. #3 best if three) teams are the ideal playoff formats, in terms of rewarding actual 154/162 season. If a team is not good enough to win a four or five team division over six months, than you shouldn’t be eligible to be a “World Champion” on the basis of a 3-4 week tournament. Period.

Well, do you consider the 2006 Cardinals to have ruined baseball? They won the World Series after going 83-78 in the regular season. Is the difference between 83 wins and 82 the difference between a "Valid birth" and a "Random Crapshoot"?

[caulfield12]

21 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

I follow the regular season, primarily my rotisserie teams and the White Sox, but in terms of the playoffs I typically don’t watch or follow closely.

I didn’t care last year after the Sox were out. If they went to sixteen teams permanent I wouldn’t care, or even  bother to get Sox playoff tickets. It was special to go to all the games in 1983 and 2005, because the team earned a valid birth.  Stepping up to buy tickets for a 82-80 “postseason team”, who gives a shit if they win some random crapshoot. 

Four (four eight team divisions post expansion) or six (Division champs #2 vs. #3 best if three) teams are the ideal playoff formats, in terms of rewarding actual 154/162 season. If a team is not good enough to win a four or five team division over six months, than you shouldn’t be eligible to be a “World Champion” on the basis of a 3-4 week tournament. Period.

But then you have the Padres/Dodgers issue, as well as the NL East, where 4 of 5 teams are legit contenders.

Yet the AL/NL Central teams have been rewarded by beating the hell out of the Pirates, Royals and Tigers.  
 

Or the Rays trying to compete with NYY, Boston and now Toronto again every season.

Edited February 1, 2021 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

12 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Well, do you consider the 2006 Cardinals to have ruined baseball? They won the World Series after going 83-78 in the regular season. Is the difference between 83 wins and 82 the difference between a "Valid birth" and a "Random Crapshoot"?

One can argue both the 1987 and especially the 1991 World Series were great for baseball, and neither Twins’ team was objectively great...but massive home field advantage and a few superstar performers added to high drama.

Pretty sure there were some .500ish or lower Padres teams during the Peavy era that make it but were quickly dispatched.  Baseball survived.

 

[South Side Hit Men]

17 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Well, do you consider the 2006 Cardinals to have ruined baseball? They won the World Series after going 83-78 in the regular season. Is the difference between 83 wins and 82 the difference between a "Valid birth" and a "Random Crapshoot"?

1994-1995, when Bud Selig and friends literally killed baseball and attempted to play scabs, and allowed teams unable to beat out four teams as a wild card is when the credibility of baseball took a major hit. I lost interest in postseason baseball at that time. There have been several wild card champions / weak division champions since, including TLDR's you referenced.

The 7-8 team division format / four postseason teams would mirror the equivalent ratio through 1968.  A permanent 14-16 + team playoff expansion would render the regular season a lengthy exhibition season similar to the other sports. Baseball was unique in maintaining the integrity of the regular season until 1994.

6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

But then you have the Padres/Dodgers issue, as well as the NL East, where 4 of 5 teams are legit contenders.

Yet the AL/NL Central teams have been rewarded by beating the hell out of the Pirates, Royals and Tigers.  

Or the Rays trying to compete with NYY, Boston and now Toronto again every season.

Back in the good old days, even as far back as a few years ago, nearly all teams were trying to field a quality team, now fans are down to a minority of teams.

All five teams won the AL East within the past seven years. In fact, 13 of the 15 American League teams, the absolutely pathetic White Sox and Seattle Mariners the exceptions, have won their respective division in the past seven years. The answer is not to cheapen the process, the answer is to actually attempt to win baseball games.

[Y2Jimmy0]

 

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

The NFL and NBA alone prove this wrong. 

I disagree with this part. Way different sports. You can't win a title in the NBA without the best players and in the NFL in most cases, you have to have an awesome QB. Baseball isn't like that. The worst team can go on a heater for 3 weeks and win the whole thing. I understand the random variance argument. I just thin it's better for the long-term health of the sport that more teams are trying to win and expanded playoffs accomplishes that. 

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

1994-1995, when Bud Selig and friends literally killed baseball and attempted to play scabs, and allowed teams unable to beat out four teams as a wild card is when the credibility of baseball took a major hit. I lost interest in postseason baseball at that time. There have been several wild card champions / weak division champions since, including TLDR's you referenced.

The 7-8 team division format / four postseason teams would mirror the equivalent ratio through 1968.  A permanent 14-16 + team playoff expansion would render the regular season a lengthy exhibition season similar to the other sports. Baseball was unique in maintaining the integrity of the regular season until 1994.

Back in the good old days, even as far back as a few years ago, nearly all teams were trying to field a quality team, now fans are down to a minority of teams.

All five teams won the AL East within the past seven years. In fact, 13 of the 15 American League teams, the absolutely pathetic White Sox and Seattle Mariners the exceptions, have won their respective division in the past seven years. The answer is not to cheapen the process, the answer is to actually attempt to win baseball games.

Right, but you can still make a legit argument that today the four best teams in baseball are all in the NL.  There must be some ownership groups wondering if there’s any point in doing anything besides maximizing revenues, like the Pirates.  

Still, hope spring eternal, like the Rays, Padres, A’s, Marlins and Reds experiencing success last year, or the Royals almost winning two consecutive World Series in a market where fans regularly protested the Evil Empire NY Yankees in the 90’s and 2000’s.

Baseball tends to go in cycles, though.  

[ScootsMcGoots]

10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Right, but you can still make a legit argument that today the four best teams in baseball are all in the NL.  There must be some ownership groups wondering if there’s any point in doing anything besides maximizing revenues, like the Pirates.  

Still, hope spring eternal, like the Rays, Padres, A’s, Marlins and Reds experiencing success last year, or the Royals almost winning two consecutive World Series in a market where fans regularly protested the Evil Empire NY Yankees in the 90’s and 2000’s.

Baseball tends to go in cycles, though.  

And with rebuilds becoming more and more common, the cycles will continue

[caulfield12]

28 minutes ago, ScooterMcGee said:

And with rebuilds becoming more and more common, the cycles will continue

The results are mixed.  The Cubs and Royals got their titles, but couldn’t sustain their success out beyond 3-4 seasons.  The Red Sox and Giants dynasties also fell apart, but then you have the next generation of rebuilds in the Braves, White Sox, Padres and Blue Jays.

The Astros arguably are the closest to validating it, but they cheated...so they’re challenging to objectively assess. 

Perhaps the Rays and Dodgers are the quintessential mirror images of fundamentally similar strategies (sustained success) but at opposite financial poles.

Edited February 1, 2021 by caulfield12

[The Beast]

3 hours ago, mqr said:

No more watching actually good teams Duke it out. Instead, enjoying watching to see if a dog shit Marlins team can squeak in at 80-82

Said dog shit Marlins beat the Cubs last year in the playoffs and it was funny.

[soxfan18]

5 hours ago, ScooterMcGee said:

This I just don't understand, in the baseball world. I understand that there is a wage gap, believe me I do. But in sports? Let's say an owner makes a billion dollars a season. Payroll of the major league team is, let's say 130 million.

I wonder how much it costs to lease the ballpark. Cost of taxes for the park.

Cost of facilities to the park.

Cost of transportation for the players to away games. 

Cost of the hotels at away games.

Cost of feeding the players.

Cost of other personal running the park and the coaches.

Cost of equipment.

Cost of ballpark food.

Cost of keeping the park clean. Cost of the grounds crew and their equipment.

Cost of upgrades to the park.

There are so many costs, and I'm sure I'm not even making a dent in it all.

Not all the money goes into the pockets of the owners. They aren't all greedy. They want to invest back into the product they own. Most of them anyway

Paying out 13% of revenue would be fucking criminal!

Baseball needs a ~50/50 split like NFL/NHL/NBA all have. 

4 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Is there a way to have 7 playoff teams and give the top 3 byes? Then they’re all rewarded. 4v7 and 5v6. Then the winners of those face each other to see who plays the 1 seed. How long would 1-3 need to sit on this scenario? 

I think 6 teams is the sweet spot, personally. 

You need to give byes to only 2 division winners, so early clinchers still have something major to play for down the stretch. 

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Literally none of what you have said actually holds up to fact checking. None of it.

Show some actual facts here. 

Everything he said was factual. 

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Let go of this and get back to baseball.  Even if you want to quibble on this you haven't shown anything approaching what you are rambling on about in baseball.

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

The NFL and NBA alone prove this wrong. 

Lol, you brought the other leagues up.

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Right, but you can still make a legit argument that today the four best teams in baseball are all in the NL.  There must be some ownership groups wondering if there’s any point in doing anything besides maximizing revenues, like the Pirates.  

Teams / leagues have ebbs and flows throughout time. My preferred format won't happen, even if MLB lost its anti-trust exemption, but the best format in terms of incentive to field competitive teams is the relegation / promotion process used by by most domestic leagues around the globe. If ownership chose not to compete at their current level, the entire franchise is sent down to the "minors". There would be few if any "tanking teams". This would allow new ownership groups to purchase teams and if they invest enough, they could be promoted over time to the major leagues. You wouldn't be forced to give the current cartel a billion dollars to enter their Congressional protected monopoly. Fans would actually be offered what they are paying for at their respective league level.

All teams would be unaffiliated, ball clubs would have expanded rosters / current game day rosters similar to how Schaumburg and the AZ Fall League is held, which is where MLB is headed anyway. No drafts, all players are free agents. Also, no garbage playoff schemes. Round Robin regular season schedules across the entire league, playoffs limited to first place teams. The bottom 2 teams are relegated, top 2 teams promoted, throughout the various levels.

Levels (Each league has a separate round robin schedule, no inter league beyond a Championship/World Series between the round robin winners, and a possible All Star Game):

Top Tier - Bottom team in each league relegated, PCL and IL Champions Promoted.

1. American League & National League
2. Pacific Coast League & International League

Second Tier - Top Teams in each of the four leagues play in a playoff (semi-final winners also promoted); last place teams do the same (the losing two are relegated).

1. Eastern; Southern; Texas & California League
2. Carolina; Mid-Atlantic; Midwest & Nortwest
3. Florida State; South Atlantic; Arizona & Gulf Coast

International Leagues like the Mexican and Dominican Leagues can sell their prospects to the highest bidder, at any level.

Edited February 1, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

7 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Do you even think to fact check yourself?  From 2014 to 2019, MLB total payrolls went up from $3.45 billion to 4 billion.  

MLB revenue is up from 7.86 billion im 2014 to 10.37 billion 2019. This means that player salaries are down from 43.8% of the pie to 38.5% of the pie based on the numbers you're providing so @Jack Parkman is 100% correct. 

MLB players are likely getting the smallest share of revenue of the three major sports despite not having a salary cap and it's 100% due to owner collusion.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Look at Ray Ray Run