wegner Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, ron883 said: Honestly, nobody would take his contract on with the sticky stuff ban IMO. Cole is unmovable. Schadenfreude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, ron883 said: He's got a dynamite fastball and his curveball, slider and changeup can all look good at times. He's gotten better every year. Can't give up on him yet IMO I agree, you don't give up on arms like that as a general rule. You have to be getting something really good in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 9, 2021 Author Share Posted July 9, 2021 1 minute ago, DirtySox said: Are there any rumors here? Or just lots of derailment? First couple posts clearly indicate Cubs will be sellers. That's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: It's really hard to peg. Each team's MLB scouting dept. will view him differently. I'm glad we're actually having a discussion now, which is what I intended to do in the first place. Unfortunately, that's not the discussion. You are wrong that he is not more valuable than Pederson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 1 minute ago, ptatc said: Unfortunately, that's not the discussion. You are wrong that he is not more valuable than Pederson. When did I ever say he wasn't? I wanted to have a discussion about his trade value because an actual Sox fan with a platform thought he had less than I did. I was like, holy fuck I thought I was the low man on Cease? Edited July 9, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said: Maybe you should quit being a prick just because we disagree about the Hawks and Dylan Cease. People made valid arguments against. I presented my case, others presented theirs. The jury is still out. We'll see who was right. I never thought that Lopez was good, however. I was starting to come around on Cease. Now I still have to wait and see. I clarified because people thought that I actually think that Cease sucks. It was more of "I see where he's coming from" Believe me, I disagree with you on A LOT more than the Blackhawks and Dylan Cease. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said: Or they think Cease sucks and has minimal value. That is a valid thought. I'm not sure that Cease doesn't completely suck. He looks like he might be Lopez part deux. Dylan Cease is English for Daniel Cabrera. Great stuff, has no idea where it's going. This is what I said. I know Cabrera sucked but that's kind of how I see Cease until he proves it some more. I never said that I thought that he completely sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 30 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: If you're arguing that the combination of his stuff and consistent outperformance of his peripherals indicate that he may be figuring it out, then sure, I get it. That's the optimist's point of view. I'm more neutral on Cease at the moment so I get both points of view. Cease's trade value really depends on the pro scouting team, and how they view him. Cease’s ERA is higher than his FIP this year... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 30 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: I'm aware, That's why I've moved from a Cease pessimist to neutral. How much is sticky stuff? That is the question. It will be answered over the 2nd half and playoffs. Did “sticky stuff” not exist prior to this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Tony said: Believe me, I disagree with you on A LOT more than the Blackhawks and Dylan Cease. Yeah, we disagree about pretty much everything, which is why we don't talk much on the board anymore. I respect your POV, just disagree with it.....a lot. Edited July 9, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: When did I ever say he wasn't? I wanted to have a discussion about his trade value because an actual Sox fan with a platform thought he had less than I did. I was like, holy fuck I thought I was the low man on Cease? Ah, so you were purposefully not discussing the topic in the thread just trying to change the narrative. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 Just now, ptatc said: Ah, so you were purposefully not discussing the topic in the thread just trying to change the narrative. Other people were saying Bernstein was nuts and I was saying that I understood where he was coming from. Then everyone attacked me and I reacted defensively, instead of actually having a rational discussion about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said: Other people were saying Bernstein was nuts and I was saying that I understood where he was coming from. Then everyone attacked me and I reacted defensively, instead of actually having a rational discussion about it. You are both wrong if you think a fair deal is Cease+ to get Pederson. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Line Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 I don't want any more Cubs. No loser mojo on this team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, ptatc said: You are both wrong if you think a fair deal is Cease+ to get Pederson. I do not, I think Cease has more value than Pederson, just because of the team control and stuff. I completely understand viewing Cease as a 26 year old failed prospect with a great arm though. However, if team control and stuff were all that mattered, then prospects would never get traded. The Sox aren't trading Cease anyway. They have enough problems in their rotation over the next few years. Edited July 9, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: I completely understand viewing Cease as a 26 year old failed prospect Why? That’s absurd. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 1 minute ago, hi8is said: Why? That’s absurd. It's not absurd, because sticky stuff and that his peripherals were awful up until this season. I have to see more. Not saying I agree with it, just that I understand that POV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: I do not, I think Cease has more value than Pederson, just because of the team control and stuff. I completely understand viewing Cease as a 26 year old failed prospect with a great arm though. However, if team control and stuff were all that mattered, then prospects would never get traded. The Sox aren't trading Cease anyway. They have enough problems in their rotation over the next few years. For fuck’s sake, Cease is 30th in fWAR!?! He is not a failed prospect, he’s a valuable major league starting pitcher!!?! And the best part is you’ve drawn all these conclusions because he was bad in 26 starts prior to this season. To think a rookie can’t get better is just plan fucking stupid. I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: For fuck’s sake, Cease is 30th in fWAR!?! He is not a failed prospect, he’s a valuable major league starting pitcher!!?! And the best part is you’ve drawn all these conclusions because he was bad in 26 starts prior to this season. To think a rookie can’t get better is just plan fucking stupid. I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul. Idk how much of his success was due to sticky stuff? I said let's wait and see. Of course he can get better, I'm not saying that. There are some players whose entire success was based on them using substances. It remains to be seen who they are, but there's some evidence for them. Sticky stuff is for pitchers as roids were for hitters. Some of them it just made them better, others their entire success was because of it. Edited July 9, 2021 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentralChamps21 Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said: Idk how much of his success was due to sticky stuff? I said let's wait and see. Of course he can get better, I'm not saying that. There are some players whose entire success was based on them using substances. It remains to be seen who they are, but there's some evidence for them. He was playing by the same rules as everybody else and is still a top 30 pitcher. The only way "sticky stuff" matters is if he was using it but somehow all those guys in the 31-60 range weren't. If everybody gets worse by the same factor he's still top 30. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 2 hours ago, Jack Parkman said: Cease had a FIP over 6.00 and an xFIP over 5.00 last year. He sucks. His k rate as gone down significantly over his last few starts. He's displaying all of the things that made him an issue in 2019-20. You're fucking ridiculous. His K rate is literally the same the last 4 starts. Also you're quoting FIP and xFIP, guess what they were the last 4 starts? 4.65 FIP, 3.49 xFIP. I would really like to understand how xFIP suggest his was a shitty pitcher in 2020 but at the same time it's lying to our faces over the last 4 starts. Just another case of Parkman being Parkman. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said: He was playing by the same rules as everybody else and is still a top 30 pitcher. The only way "sticky stuff" matters is if he was using it but somehow all those guys in the 31-60 range weren't. If everybody gets worse by the same factor he's still top 30. Everyone's not going to get worse by the same factor. Some pitchers it will affect more than others, some will barely be affected, and some will completely suck after the ban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 (edited) 1 minute ago, thxfrthmmrs said: You're fucking ridiculous. His K rate is literally the same the last 4 starts. Also you're quoting FIP and xFIP, guess what they were the last 4 starts? 4.65 FIP, 3.49 xFIP. I would really like to understand how xFIP suggest his was a shitty pitcher in 2020 but at the same time it's lying to our faces over the last 4 starts. Just another case of Parkman being Parkman. Ever heard of small sample size? Not enough data to be statistically significant yet. I'm not completely dismissing his improvements this year, I said I need to see more. I understand why those who do would though. Edited July 9, 2021 by Jack Parkman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 Just now, Jack Parkman said: Ever heard of small sample size? Not enough data to be statistically significant yet. Wasn't your whole fucking argument based on his K% the last few starts? Ever heard of shooting yourself in the foot? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 16 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: Idk how much of his success was due to sticky stuff? I said let's wait and see. Of course he can get better, I'm not saying that. There are some players whose entire success was based on them using substances. It remains to be seen who they are, but there's some evidence for them. Sticky stuff is for pitchers as roids were for hitters. Some of them it just made them better, others their entire success was because of it. Again, did sticky stuff not exist last year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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