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5 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

As do I but I see no sense in playing him unless he has a good matchup. No matter how long he is up here the Sox will try to get the year back unless he shows he can contribute against the matchups he does get. Then you can try him more against righties but now he doesn't deserve anything handed to him on a silver platter because of pedigree. It's unfortunate injuries led to this but if Engel and Hamilton are uninjured ,Mercedes doesn't get the chance. So now Mercedes is taking Vaughn's DH AB's and Vaughn was only tried in LF because of the OF injuries and the emergence of Mercedes.

Sorry everyone but if there's a silver lining to less Vaughn PT and the injuries, it's Mercedes . It's not my fault Vaughn is too inexperienced with both hitting MLB pitching and with playing LF  and too slow too contribute in any other way. If you all don't like me calling a spade a spade, oh well.

 

We don't like you looking at a face down card and calling it a spade. The lack of minors experience means Vaughn hasn't proven to the fans that he can hit, but between college, spring, and Schaumburg last year he clearly proved to the White Sox talent evaluators that he can hit. So yeah, call it "pedigree" if you want but scouting does in fact earn someone an opportunity. Scouts aren't always right, but neither are AAA stats.

Not to mention, Nick Williams has a long track record proving he can't hit. His defense is serviceable, at best, and since the start of 2018 he has a slash line against RHP (his platoon strong side!) of .236/304/405. That is an OPS of .709 and a wRC+ of 91. Nick Williams has been a negative war player every single year since his rookie season. He sucks.

With how weak this lineup is right now, I am playing Vaughn every day until the minor leagues start so we can get a good look at him. If Vaughn also sucks, fine send him down. But you can't give him 2 games a week and ask him to "prove it." Just ask Zack Collins

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Why did you bold that and not answer the question ? He is here and should be playing every day

 

Ok so u think that .400 OBP means something  so then I am allowed to say that his .000 avg and .200 OBP against RHP means something too. Both are very small sample sizes. If you can use one to your advantage then so can I . You only want him in left field because there's no where else for him to play because Mercedes took away his DH AB's so it has a lot to do with Mercedes. Remember you guys keep using that OBP 1st I never brought it up because small sample sizes by you or me means nothing. All you got is his pedigree to support Vaughns playing time. Nada, zip, zilch, nothing but that, not speed, not experience, not defense, not performance. .

You argue that Vaughn hasn't done anything to earn playing time. What exactly has Nick Williams done to earn playing time?

Answer: absolutely nothing.

Edited by manbearpuig
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2 hours ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

There were at least 2 balls in LF that Vaughn wouldn't have gotten to. Not a criticism of him, but he just doesn't cover as much ground. When a contact pitcher like Keuchel or Lynn is pitching, I don't mind leaning toward the better defensive option.

Also, Mercedes is cooling down so Vaughn might start getting some time at DH.

1-5 in his last 2 games with 3 walks while also still being a .500 hitter .556 OBP .781Slg. and 1.337 OPS . I guess he should be on the bench when his average drops to under .500. I do appreciate the support that Vaughn isnt a LFer but if Vaughn was 1-5 with 3 walks there'd be people calling for him to play more not less. That's how absurd it's getting around here with the Vaughn worship.

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1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

1-5 in his last 2 games with 3 walks while also still being a .500 hitter .556 OBP .781Slg. and 1.337 OPS . I guess he should be on the bench when his average drops to under .500. I do appreciate the support that Vaughn isnt a LFer but if Vaughn was 1-5 with 3 walks there'd be people calling for him to play more not less. That's how absurd it's getting around here with the Vaughn worship.

lol who is calling for Mercedes to play less? This is just getting comical, man.

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2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

1-5 in his last 2 games with 3 walks while also still being a .500 hitter .556 OBP .781Slg. and 1.337 OPS . I guess he should be on the bench when his average drops to under .500. I do appreciate the support that Vaughn isnt a LFer but if Vaughn was 1-5 with 3 walks there'd be people calling for him to play more not less. That's how absurd it's getting around here with the Vaughn worship.

Nobody is suggesting benching Mercedes right now for Vaughn (even the quote you excerpted just imagined a future scenario where Mercedes stops hitting).

The question at hand is why you would play (a) a journeyman with below average defense, low ceiling, and no future with the team over (b) a #3 overall pick (yeah, I mentioned his "pedigree") with unusual polish, a (so far) sound hitting approach that has been getting him on base with regularity, and who is projected as a cornerstone of the team's future and whose development is thus top priority. Forget platitudes about "earning it" and prospects having to "prove" their bona fides in a vague and general sense. I have a hard time seeing how anyone could answer (a) in a way that's consistent with good organizational management.

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7 minutes ago, manbearpuig said:

lol who is calling for Mercedes to play less? This is just getting comical, man.

Um the guy I just quoted who said he is cooling down so perhaps  Vaughn will get more DH AB's. I swear half of you guys either don't read what I'm responding to or willfully choose to ignore it. That's what's comical.

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53 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

It's not on the front office. It's on Jerry Reinsdorf for not having enough in the budget and Tony La Russa for choosing to not play Andrew Vaughn. 

So the White Sox couldn't have possibly not given all their cheap owners available money to a position that wasn't a team strength?

Like they couldn't have signed Nelson Cruz instead of Liam Hendriks? I'm pretty sure they could have. I know you want to blame Jerry for everything, but the Sox 100% could have executed the off-season better with the funds they had available to them.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Why did you bold that and not answer the question ? He is here and should be playing every day

 

Ok so u think that .400 OBP means something  so then I am allowed to say that his .000 avg and .200 OBP against RHP means something too. Both are very small sample sizes. If you can use one to your advantage then so can I . You only want him in left field because there's no where else for him to play because Mercedes took away his DH AB's so it has a lot to do with Mercedes. Remember you guys keep using that OBP 1st I never brought it up because small sample sizes by you or me means nothing. All you got is his pedigree to support Vaughns playing time. Nada, zip, zilch, nothing but that, not speed, not experience, not defense, not performance. .

Nothing is being used to my advantage. You shouldn't take a small sample and make it smaller. The OBP is being used to show his approach has been solid; it's been repeated to you over and over again. His approach has been good. Good approaches will typically lead to good results in the long run. 

You keep saying he looks terrible, and the rebuttal to that the entire thread has been his approach has been fine. His results could merely be better.

He should play in LF because the Sox don't have a better option. This again isn't complicated. 

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run
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6 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Nothing is being used to my advantage. You shouldn't take a small sample and make it smaller. The OBP is being used to show his approach has been solid; it's been repeated to you over and over again. His approach has been good. Good approaches will typically lead to good results in the long run. 

You keep saying he looks terrible, and the rebuttal to that the entire thread has been his approach has been fine. His results could merely be better.

He should play in LF because the Sox don't have a better option. This again isn't complicated. 

You know he's wrong when he's the only one arguing one such way. Lol.  

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3 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

Nobody is suggesting benching Mercedes right now for Vaughn (even the quote you excerpted just imagined a future scenario where Mercedes stops hitting).

The question at hand is why you would play (a) a journeyman with below average defense, low ceiling, and no future with the team over (b) a #3 overall pick (yeah, I mentioned his "pedigree") with unusual polish, a (so far) sound hitting approach that has been getting him on base with regularity, and who is projected as a cornerstone of the team's future and whose development is thus top priority. Forget platitudes about "earning it" and prospects having to "prove" their bona fides in a vague and general sense. I have a hard time seeing how anyone could answer (a) in a way that's consistent with good organizational management.

So making a guy play in the upper minors now is a platitude? Name one guy who only played A ball and stuck in the major leagues. Even those who disagree with me and that is prety much everyone say he should be sent down if he's not playing so in a sense they agree with me because he will not play against anything but favorable matchups. I am not taking the White Sox organization's side in this I just agree with it. He should be sent down as soon as Engel and Hamilton come back.

I don't know how many times I have to say he's slow and a bad defender. He can't pinch run and if he makes the last out in the 9th in a tie game do you want him to be the one starting at 2nd base in the 10th?  Do you think if he was in there yesterday he catches that foul ball Williams caught near the netting ? I forget the situation . Maybe it was when Marshall got out of the bases loaded jam. Maybe it was when Heuer was pitching. Is Vaughn out of the game by then ? If Vaughn is in there and doesn't catch that ball it costs pitchers pitches and maybe more perhaps even the game. Is it bad organizational management to keep him up and play him in the right matchups until the minor league season starts and then get the extra year back by keeping him in the minors for longer than a month ? With both Engel and Hamilton out the Sox have no choice but to keep Vaughn for some matchups  so Williams doesn't play against lefties.

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where is today's gamethread? I'm trying to vent on that abomination of a lineup

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Nothing is being used to my advantage. You shouldn't take a small sample and make it smaller. The OBP is being used to show his approach has been solid; it's been repeated to you over and over again. His approach has been good. Good approaches will typically lead to good results in the long run. 

You keep saying he looks terrible, and the rebuttal to that the entire thread has been his approach has been fine. His results could merely be better.

He should play in LF because the Sox don't have a better option. This again isn't complicated. 

Ahh so you can use a SSS but I can't? Please please tell me for future reference what SSS is good enough to use. You used a 14 AB sample size and I used a 8 AB sample size. So I can probably deduce that it's fine  if I use a 14+ AB sample size in future arguments with you. Got it.

Just keep paraphrasing me that's totally accurate or maybe that's called lying.

Edited by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

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2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So making a guy play in the upper minors now is a platitude? Name one guy who only played A ball and stuck in the major leagues. Even those who disagree with me and that is prety much everyone say he should be sent down if he's not playing so in a sense they agree with me because he will not play against anything but favorable matchups. I am not taking the White Sox organization's side in this I just agree with it. He should be sent down as soon as Engel and Hamilton come back.

I don't know how many times I have to say he's slow and a bad defender. He can't pinch run and if he makes the last out in the 9th in a tie game do you want him to be the one starting at 2nd base in the 10th?  Do you think if he was in there yesterday he catches that foul ball Williams caught near the netting ? I forget the situation . Maybe it was when Marshall got out of the bases loaded jam. Maybe it was when Heuer was pitching. Is Vaughn out of the game by then ? If Vaughn is in there and doesn't catch that ball it costs pitchers pitches and maybe more perhaps even the game. Is it bad organizational management to keep him up and play him in the right matchups until the minor league season starts and then get the extra year back by keeping him in the minors for longer than a month ? With both Engel and Hamilton out the Sox have no choice but to keep Vaughn for some matchups  so Williams doesn't play against lefties.

You can misrepresent last year however you want, but it's not the slam dunk you're making it out to be.

The Astros have argued they don't even want minor league games and seasons because there's more value in one on one coaching and sessions with your top prospects. Last year Vaughn was facing big league and AAAA talent much of his "year". We didn't get to see him, but the Sox did. So saying he's not ready because two years ago you were underwhelmed by post-college season minor league stats just isn't a valid critique imo. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, TheTruth05 said:

where is today's gamethread? I'm trying to vent on that abomination of a lineup

Since 2019, Bieber has been better vs lefties than Righties. Tony putting Nick Williams 5th in the order and Jake Lamb at DH is one of the funniest things I've seen this year.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run

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7 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So making a guy play in the upper minors now is a platitude? Name one guy who only played A ball and stuck in the major leagues. Even those who disagree with me and that is prety much everyone say he should be sent down if he's not playing so in a sense they agree with me because he will not play against anything but favorable matchups. I am not taking the White Sox organization's side in this I just agree with it. He should be sent down as soon as Engel and Hamilton come back.

I don't know how many times I have to say he's slow and a bad defender. He can't pinch run and if he makes the last out in the 9th in a tie game do you want him to be the one starting at 2nd base in the 10th?  Do you think if he was in there yesterday he catches that foul ball Williams caught near the netting ? I forget the situation . Maybe it was when Marshall got out of the bases loaded jam. Maybe it was when Heuer was pitching. Is Vaughn out of the game by then ? If Vaughn is in there and doesn't catch that ball it costs pitchers pitches and maybe more perhaps even the game. Is it bad organizational management to keep him up and play him in the right matchups until the minor league season starts and then get the extra year back by keeping him in the minors for longer than a month ? With both Engel and Hamilton out the Sox have no choice but to keep Vaughn for some matchups  so Williams doesn't play against lefties.

Juan Soto played 8 games in AA before his call up straight the bigs in 2018

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Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Since 2019, Bieber has been better vs lefties than Righties. Tony putting 5th in the order is one of the funniest things I've seen this year.

Vaughn hasn't earned ABs though

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4 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Ahh so you can use a SSS but I can't? Please please tell me for future reference what SSS is good enough to use. You used a 14 AB sample size and I used a 8 AB sample size. So I can probably deduce that it's fine  if I use a 14+ AB sample size in future arguments with you. Got it.

For the 1000th time before I leave this thread, I am talking about his approach at the plate. I'm not sure what is so hard for you to grasp about this but it's clearly causing issues. Have a good one.

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1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Since 2019, Bieber has been better vs lefties than Righties. Tony putting 5th in the order is one of the funniest things I've seen this year.

Feels like every day, the need to go outside the organization for a real left fielder seems more necessary 

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1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

It's not on the front office. It's on Jerry Reinsdorf for not having enough in the budget and Tony La Russa for choosing to not play Andrew Vaughn. 

I consider JR to be front office and I expect Hahn to plead his case for needing more money. They say money is available to use at the deadline but we need it now. 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So making a guy play in the upper minors now is a platitude? Name one guy who only played A ball and stuck in the major leagues. Even those who disagree with me and that is prety much everyone say he should be sent down if he's not playing so in a sense they agree with me because he will not play against anything but favorable matchups. I am not taking the White Sox organization's side in this I just agree with it. He should be sent down as soon as Engel and Hamilton come back.

I don't know how many times I have to say he's slow and a bad defender. He can't pinch run and if he makes the last out in the 9th in a tie game do you want him to be the one starting at 2nd base in the 10th?  Do you think if he was in there yesterday he catches that foul ball Williams caught near the netting ? I forget the situation . Maybe it was when Marshall got out of the bases loaded jam. Maybe it was when Heuer was pitching. Is Vaughn out of the game by then ? If Vaughn is in there and doesn't catch that ball it costs pitchers pitches and maybe more perhaps even the game. Is it bad organizational management to keep him up and play him in the right matchups until the minor league season starts and then get the extra year back by keeping him in the minors for longer than a month ? With both Engel and Hamilton out the Sox have no choice but to keep Vaughn for some matchups  so Williams doesn't play against lefties.

I'm not talking about what to do when Engel and Hamilton come back. I'm not talking about whether it's true that playing in the minors is important in a general sense (which is, by the way, a platitude...or very close to one). I'm not even talking about whether he should be sent down or not. Vaughn is with the big league club right now. The only question I'm asking is how someone could look at Andrew Vaughn and proven-to-be-bad-at-baseball Nick Williams sitting next to each other on the bench and call Nick Williams's number over and over. I think it's indefensible.  I guess you see something in Nick Williams that I don't.

Edited by 35thstreetswarm

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4 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

I'm not talking about what to do when Engel and Hamilton come back. I'm not talking about whether it's true that playing in the minors is important in a general sense (which is, by the way, a platitude...or very close to one). I'm not even talking about whether he should be sent down or not. Vaughn is with the big league club right now. The only question I'm asking is how someone could look at Andrew Vaughn and proven-to-be-bad-at-baseball Nick Williams sitting next to each other on the bench and call Nick Williams's number over and over. I think it's indefensible.  I guess you see something in Nick Williams that I don't.

Yes I see a LH who is 27 yrs. old who is faster than Vaughn , has played OF more than Vaughn and has had a few decent seasons hitting RHP in MLB who also has good power. We see what we want to see apparently only I am objective and the rest of you are blind to Vaughns lack of anything resembling what is needed to win ballgames . It's all about what he could be if only given the chance . It's never about his total lack of experience doing any of the things you all keep saying he is capable of doing if only the Sox just played him every day. The Sox won yesterday with Williams in the lineup and the Sox played perfect defense and got perfect relief pitching which they didn't get while playing shit defense.

What others see doesn't always mesh with what I see . I saw Mercedes/Collins as a viable alternative to DH instead of Encarnacion but I understood why the Sox went with EE . I didn't piss and moan about it until after the season. Now the whole board loves Mercedes. I argued with Ray Ray about Eaton. He hated him I didn't and also btw Ray told me Mercedes couldn't hit a curve and laughed at me about him too.

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20 minutes ago, fathom said:

Feels like every day, the need to go outside the organization for a real left fielder seems more necessary 

glad we are already at the point where we need to set the roster against the managers common tendencies.

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34 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So making a guy play in the upper minors now is a platitude? Name one guy who only played A ball and stuck in the major leagues. Even those who disagree with me and that is prety much everyone say he should be sent down if he's not playing so in a sense they agree with me because he will not play against anything but favorable matchups. I am not taking the White Sox organization's side in this I just agree with it. He should be sent down as soon as Engel and Hamilton come back.

I don't know how many times I have to say he's slow and a bad defender. He can't pinch run and if he makes the last out in the 9th in a tie game do you want him to be the one starting at 2nd base in the 10th?  Do you think if he was in there yesterday he catches that foul ball Williams caught near the netting ? I forget the situation . Maybe it was when Marshall got out of the bases loaded jam. Maybe it was when Heuer was pitching. Is Vaughn out of the game by then ? If Vaughn is in there and doesn't catch that ball it costs pitchers pitches and maybe more perhaps even the game. Is it bad organizational management to keep him up and play him in the right matchups until the minor league season starts and then get the extra year back by keeping him in the minors for longer than a month ? With both Engel and Hamilton out the Sox have no choice but to keep Vaughn for some matchups  so Williams doesn't play against lefties.

While all of this is true,  they need to balance the present and the future. All teams have young players they are breaking in for the MLB. The team obviously feels Vaughn has nothing left to learn in the minors, you may disagree but they have seen him more than you have. 

The Sox are going to struggle at times due to so many 1st and 2nd year players. Inexperience shows. But as they all gain experience it will improve.

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13 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yes I see a LH who is 27 yrs. old who is faster than Vaughn , has played OF more than Vaughn and has had a few decent seasons hitting RHP in MLB who also has good power. We see what we want to see apparently only I am objective and the rest of you are blind to Vaughns lack of anything resembling what is needed to win ballgames . It's all about what he could be if only given the chance . It's never about his total lack of experience doing any of the things you all keep saying he is capable of doing if only the Sox just played him every day. The Sox won yesterday with Williams in the lineup and the Sox played perfect defense and got perfect relief pitching which they didn't get while playing shit defense.

What others see doesn't always mesh with what I see . I saw Mercedes/Collins as a viable alternative to DH instead of Encarnacion but I understood why the Sox went with EE . I didn't piss and moan about it until after the season. Now the whole board loves Mercedes. I argued with Ray Ray about Eaton. He hated him I didn't and also btw Ray told me Mercedes couldn't hit a curve and laughed at me about him too.

Wait, are we back to using small samples again to draw vast conclusions? Nice!

And I never laughed at anyone about Mercedes. You're back to making things up again.

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