Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana

[bmags]

http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/

 

Already #5 in total payroll and will be cracking the top 3 within the next couple years as guys like Bryant, Hendricks, Russell, etc. hit arbitration and if they plan on keeping their ace pitcher after next year. Yes it does make a difference.

 

You are talking about sustaining an annual playoff team, not becoming one.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

You are talking about sustaining an annual playoff team, not becoming one.

isn't that what we are discussing here? building a playoff team that can be sustained over a 4-5 year stretch?

[Bob Sacamano]

Give it a shot. If we suck, deal guys in June/July/next offseason.

[Rowand44]

sure, but until we do I'm holding off on criticism re: trading Q and Sale

That's your prerogative but I'm not sure how much history you need to tell you that's not going to happen.

[bmags]

isn't that what we are discussing here? building a playoff team that can be sustained over a 4-5 year stretch?

 

Not really, your contention is they will be highest payroll when they have to keep their cheap talent, replying to my comment asking if we really think the reason cubs are a playoff contender is Jason Heyward and Jon Lester. They are 35 million of that salary, remove them and they are 13th in league.

 

I say that, because they decided to splurge to make sure they were over the top. But their team could easily be playing Soler in OF and developing. They have an infield of rizzo, bryant, russel, baez and zobrist, did they NEED zobrist? No, but it's nice to have. All of the "acquire young talent moves" put them in a position to be a playoff team regardless. They had payroll to push them over top.

 

If the sox got 5 years of playoff teams but couldn't afford the players before FA and needed to sell them, i'd feel in much better position than holding onto players, paying for average 30+ vets, failing, trying to sell them, getting little back because they are old, be in 4th place.

 

The goal is to acquire as much talent as possible. The white sox have a good amount. How will they get what they need to compete with the top 10 teams in league?

 

FA

Trades

Draft

 

Draft is slow. FA is expensive. Trades we don't have minor league talent to acquire top talent.

 

This is why people advocate for selling. If it turns out that we are going to get a 200 mill budget, then I say GO FOR IT. But we know we aren't, as seen by:

Matt Latos

Austin Jackson

Jimmy Rollins

 

Instead of Dexter Fowler

 

We were great though letting the market "come to us"

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Not really, your contention is they will be highest payroll when they have to keep their cheap talent, replying to my comment asking if we really think the reason cubs are a playoff contender is Jason Heyward and Jon Lester. They are 35 million of that salary, remove them and they are 13th in league.

 

I say that, because they decided to splurge to make sure they were over the top. But their team could easily be playing Soler in OF and developing. They have an infield of rizzo, bryant, russel, baez and zobrist, did they NEED zobrist? No, but it's nice to have. All of the "acquire young talent moves" put them in a position to be a playoff team regardless. They had payroll to push them over top.

 

If the sox got 5 years of playoff teams but couldn't afford the players before FA and needed to sell them, i'd feel in much better position than holding onto players, paying for average 30+ vets, failing, trying to sell them, getting little back because they are old, be in 4th place.

 

The goal is to acquire as much talent as possible. The white sox have a good amount. How will they get what they need to compete with the top 10 teams in league?

FA

Trades

Draft

 

Draft is slow. FA is expensive. Trades we don't have minor league talent to acquire top talent.

 

This is why people advocate for selling. If it turns out that we are going to get a 200 mill budget, then I say GO FOR IT. But we know we aren't, as seen by:

Matt Latos

Austin Jackson

Jimmy Rollins

 

Instead of Dexter Fowler

 

We were great though letting the market "come to us"

The Cubs are already top 5 in total payroll. Remove Lester, Heyward, Zobrist, Fowler and Lackey from their team (free agents the Sox couldn't afford to sign with the exception of Fowler) and yes they are still a good team but no where near a great team.

[bmags]

The Cubs are already top 5 in total payroll. Remove Lester, Heyward, Zobrist, Fowler and Lackey from their team (free agents the Sox couldn't afford to sign with the exception of Fowler) and yes they are still a good team but no where near a great team.

 

You don't need to remove all 5, tif you remove Heyward and Lackey, as I said earlier, they are at a payroll of the Royals. Because the cubs talent is so cheap, they were allowed to spend a lot on really good free agents.

 

The White Sox are not at a disadvantage because of money. They are at a disadvantage because of the way they run their team.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Per usual, a great add by CWS. The big difference between the Sox and the Cubs is not only the Cubs full embrace of losing to "tank" but more importantly their willingness to sell at the deadlines. While the Cubs would be way out of the race when they traded, the Sox have failed to trade when they're out of it in all likelihood.

 

Cubs roster is 11/25 from trade.

 

Jake Arrieta - Received for a flier #5 rotation type in Feldman.

Aroldis Chapman - Paid dearly for.

Carl Edwards Jr. - Picked up for Matt Garza

Justin Grimm - Same as Edwards Jr.

Kyle Hendricks - Acquired from Ryan Dempster.

Mike Montgomery - Acquired for a prospect without a place in their org in Vogelbach.

Travis Wood - Acquired by selling off Sean Marshall at the deadline.

Miguel Montero - Acquired for two decent prospects.

Tommy La Stella - Acquired for a minor league bullpen arm in Arodys Vizcaino. (maybe the one trade they've lost so far)

Addison Russell - Acquired for Samardzija

Dexter Fowler - Acquired for excess arm in Straily and redundant Valbuena.

 

Away from Chapman, who they took a big leap on when the time was right, this all comes from Feldman, Garza, Dempster, Sean Marshall, Samardzija and excess pieces/prospects. They've lost maybe one of these trades and we'll see on Chapman.

 

In the same time, the Sox have traded Peavy, Crain (nothing), Rios (nothing), Duke (maybe a 4th outfielder) and Navarro (probably nothing).

 

They also traded for Anthony Rizzo. Everyone talks about how they've drafted but that's Bryant, Baez, and Schwarber basically with Almora on the way. The White Sox have drafted Sale and Rodon. It's not that different in that regard.

[bmags]

The Cubs are already top 5 in total payroll. Remove Lester, Heyward, Zobrist, Fowler and Lackey from their team (free agents the Sox couldn't afford to sign with the exception of Fowler) and yes they are still a good team but no where near a great team.

 

This part stands out to me. The white sox are nowhere near a great team. What is your plan to get them there?

[OmarComing25]

Even if the money was there, I wouldn't really want to "go for it" through free agency. Imagine all the hand-wringing if the Sox had signed one of Gordon/Heyward/Upton this past offseason and they played the same way here. Last offseason was considered a deep free agency and for the most part the big money free agents have been huge failures.

Edited September 1, 2016 by OmarComing25

[bmags]

Even if the money was there, I wouldn't really want to "go for it" through free agency. Imagine all the hand-wringing if the Sox had signed one of Gordon/Heyward/Upton this past offseason and they played the same way here. Last offseason was considered a deep free agency and for the most part the big money free agents have been huge failures.

 

It's less than ideal but if we are going to hold all of our assets I don't see another way. Do not have farm to acquire big upgrades in this market. Should be clear after 2 years in a row, planting "average" players into below average holes is not equaling much if any return.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

This part stands out to me. The white sox are nowhere near a great team. What is your plan to get them there?

To be a great team they would likely need a top 5 total payroll. To be a good team next year I have already suggested signing Fowler, Moreland, Wieters, and a reliever. Also move Shields to mop up/middle relief to make room for Fulmer in the rotation. Hopefully Burdi comes up next season and pitches well from the onset combined with the healthy return of Putnam/Petricka and signing of one free agent the bullpen should be much improved. I don't think any of those moves are far fetched.

 

Fowler - CF

Eaton - RF

Abreu - 1B

Frazier - 3B

Melky - LF

Moreland - DH

Lawrie/Saladino - 2B

Wieters - C

Anderson - SS

 

Sale, Q, Rodon, Gonzalez, Fulmer

[scotty22hotty]

This basically means they're just going to put out the cheapest .500 team they can build. (on paper)

 

The pieces were there last offseason to build a playoff team yet management sat on their hands and decided to enter the season with no DH, a 37 year old SS, a low tier CF, and backups at C.

 

Compared to other teams, there are too many holes and declining(?) players on this team to win. now.

[southsideirish71]

So the play is to pseudo compete for the next few years until anything of value has been sapped of its worth. That should work out well. We can ditch that pesky 1st round pick in 2017 as it wont be protected and get some 30ish NL player to take us to the promised land. When was the last time we had a winning record against our division again. I remember the typical formula to win a division is to actually beat divisional opponents. So whats the plan to address that. Sprinkle some dust on what we have and hope it gets better. Or run a few plan B's out there after the Plan A's sign elsewhere. Its simple. We dont have a plan. We just roll the dice and hope that one time we wind up with the correct amount of momentum, luck and regression from the rest of the pack.

Edited September 1, 2016 by southsideirish71

[Dick Allen]

So the play is to pseudo compete for the next few years until anything of value has been sapped of its worth. That should work out well. We can ditch that pesky 1st round pick in 2017 as it wont be protected and get some 30ish NL player to take us to the promised land. When was the last time we had a winning record against our division again. I remember the typical formula to win a division is to actually beat divisional opponents. So whats the plan to address that. Sprinkle some dust on what we have and hope it gets better. Or run a few plan B's out there after the Plan A's sign elsewhere. Its simple. We dont have a plan. We just roll the dice and hope that one time we wind up with the correct amount of momentum, luck and regression from the rest of the pack.

yeah, trading their best players for prospects will definitely fix that.

 

 

The only thing it will do is guarantee the people who love to tell you how long it's been since the White Sox have been to the playoffs, will have a guarantee of the same gripe for many more years. I will admit, that would satisfy several here.

[Hatchetman]

Fowler - CF

Eaton - RF

Abreu - 1B

Frazier - 3B

Melky - LF

Moreland - DH

Lawrie/Saladino - 2B

Wieters - C

Anderson - SS

 

That's the kind of thing they will attempt to do. But then get outbid on Fowler and/or Wieters and buy some other garbage instead. Not that that lineup would be that intimidating to begin with.

[Chicago White Sox]

yeah, trading their best players for prospects will definitely fix that.

 

 

The only thing it will do is guarantee the people who love to tell you how long it's been since the White Sox have been to the playoffs, will have a guarantee of the same gripe for many more years. I will admit, that would satisfy several here.

So what's your plan exactly? Sale is as good as gone after the 2019 season. How would you build a contender in this three year window? You keep rejecting the rebuild it route, I'd love to hear your "go for it" plan.

[bmags]

To be a great team they would likely need a top 5 total payroll. To be a good team next year I have already suggested signing Fowler, Moreland, Wieters, and a reliever. Also move Shields to mop up/middle relief to make room for Fulmer in the rotation. Hopefully Burdi comes up next season and pitches well from the onset combined with the healthy return of Putnam/Petricka and signing of one free agent the bullpen should be much improved. I don't think any of those moves are far fetched.

 

Fowler - CF

Eaton - RF

Abreu - 1B

Frazier - 3B

Melky - LF

Moreland - DH

Lawrie/Saladino - 2B

Wieters - C

Anderson - SS

 

Sale, Q, Rodon, Gonzalez, Fulmer

 

I really don't think that is enough, it may get us to .500. Nice defensive upgrade at C, but likely no offensive upgrade at all, and a heavy white sox likelihood of a historically bad offensive season from Wieters.

 

Moreland projects as worse than what we're getting from Morneau now. Hoping to keep a .780 OPS from DH? Likely it declines in age 31 season.

 

Fowler - True upgrade, but decline risk in age 31 season.

 

Add to that likely sophomore difficulties from Anderson and an almost certain decline from Melky, and that's the same team we have now: One that relies on average players to be above average and above average players to be extraordinary.

 

 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

So the play is to pseudo compete for the next few years until anything of value has been sapped of its worth. That should work out well. We can ditch that pesky 1st round pick in 2017 as it wont be protected and get some 30ish NL player to take us to the promised land. When was the last time we had a winning record against our division again. I remember the typical formula to win a division is to actually beat divisional opponents. So whats the plan to address that. Sprinkle some dust on what we have and hope it gets better. Or run a few plan B's out there after the Plan A's sign elsewhere. Its simple. We dont have a plan. We just roll the dice and hope that one time we wind up with the correct amount of momentum, luck and regression from the rest of the pack.

I wouldn't rule out a protected 1st round pick just yet. Still a lot of divisional games to play in September and 2 games in Philly.

[Y2Jimmy0]

That's the kind of thing they will attempt to do. But then get outbid on Fowler and/or Wieters and buy some other garbage instead. Not that that lineup would be that intimidating to begin with.

 

 

I hope they don't give up their 1st rounder to sign a 30+ year old Dexter Fowler for multiple years.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

I really don't think that is enough, it may get us to .500. Nice defensive upgrade at C, but likely no offensive upgrade at all, and a heavy white sox likelihood of a historically bad offensive season from Wieters.

 

Moreland projects as worse than what we're getting from Morneau now. Hoping to keep a .780 OPS from DH? Likely it declines in age 31 season.

 

Fowler - True upgrade, but decline risk in age 31 season.

 

Add to that likely sophomore difficulties from Anderson and an almost certain decline from Melky, and that's the same team we have now: One that relies on average players to be above average and above average players to be extraordinary.

You do realize majority of the DH at-bats this year were given to guys like Avi and Sands before Morneau arrived correct? I don't know what the Sox have gotten out of the DH spot this year but my guess is somewhere around an OPS of 700. Moreland is at 785 this year and 765 career so that's a considerable upgrade. Fowler is a huge upgrade from Jackson/Shuck and Wieters is probably a wash but defensive upgrade. Why is it a sure thing that Anderson slumps and Melky regresses while Abreu, Eaton, and Frazier don't improve? I think that's a league average offense on paper and that's all the Sox need to be a playoff contender with their pitching.

[flavum]

I wouldn't rule out a protected 1st round pick just yet. Still a lot of divisional games to play in September and 2 games in Philly.

 

They'll come home that last week of the season vs Rays and Twins and go 6-1. 11 or 12 seems 90% at this point.

[Dick Allen]

So what's your plan exactly? Sale is as good as gone after the 2019 season. How would you build a contender in this three year window? You keep rejecting the rebuild it route, I'd love to hear your "go for it" plan.

The problem is, I have no idea what is possible with Sale or Quintana. They wanted Jackie Bradley Jr. as part of the package. Could they get him in the offseason? But, if I was to trade one of those guys or both, at least part of the return is established major league players. Melky, Frazier, and Lawrie playing for a contract usually works to the teams advantage during the season. They need a starting catcher. Another OF who can hit, maybe a 1B that can at least make Abreu DH once in while. Another reliever or 2. Maybe another back end starter to throw into the mix. And the position players they get, have to be able to hit. It's a lot, but IMO if they are really going to go for it, they have to really go for it. Not hoping someone comes through. They have to be prepared for someone to get hurt or to suck unexpectedly. But trading everybody and getting prospects can set you up to be bad for a really long time. It's not like these other rebuilt teams had several good players they just turned into a bunch of can't miss prospects. Most of them just got really bad and had no choice.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

They'll come home that last week of the season vs Rays and Twins and go 6-1. 11 or 12 seems 90% at this point.

I'd say the next 4 games will be quite telling. If they go 1-3 in Minnesota, the #10 pick is absolutely within reach.

[Soxfest]

More table scraps of guys In mid 30's coming soon.