The " Tank" is dead . Let there be Light !

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On August 1st we had a thread that asked "Is This Rock Bottom ? "

On August 19th a thread told us "Michael Kopech called up . "

Now 4 of our 5 starting pitchers are all key pieces to the rebuild . Can we honestly keep rooting for losses when these guys pitch ? We can't  think we can get good pitching and lose enough to continue tanking can we ?

Now next year Eloy will be here full time along with some young bullpen arms.  Yes the position players are all still pretty much disasters Maybe Abreu , Anderson and Moncada will be here still . In Abreu's case who knows ? Right now we are a team full of DH's and utility players and guys on the cusp of being non tendered or jettisoned in some other fashion.

So what's the plan moving forward this off season ? CF looks bleak in free agency and there's not much there for 3rd base either our 2 weakest positions. Machado is presumably a SS . He and Harper don't seem likely but there are still plenty of talented players out there.

I think the key might be who is going to get a qualifying offer among the remaining free agents. Until the new CBA it's possible the owners keep the contracts offered to aging players low. If there is a lack of QO's then perhaps the Sox take a bigger plunge into free agency then we might otherwise think. The off season should be very very interesting.

Is it worth it to try to give out smaller contracts to guys who can bridge the gap for another year or continue to search for diamonds in the rough? That didn't work out real well this season and I don't expect much help from anyone on Charlotte outside of relief pitchers, With so many holes offensively and defensively even good luck with trades or FA probably doesn't mean the playoffs next year. But with so many holes some have to be plugged right ? It's all not just going to happen overnight and relying on the 2020 free agent class could be a disaster if the Sox strike out there.

 

[Jack Parkman]

I approve of this thread. As long as: a) the Sox finish top 10 this year in the draft and don't have to worry about losing their 1st rounder for signing a big fish free agent and b) Moncada, Anderson and the SP are fueling the wins, I couldn't care less if they're drafting 3rd, 6th or 9th.

[hi8is]

I too see the light. The tipping point has been reached. Interesting times ahead... as we’ve all known for many days.

It’s just that now... the days are numbered.

[Lip Man 1]

16 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

On August 1st we had a thread that asked "Is This Rock Bottom ? "

On August 19th a thread told us "Michael Kopech called up . "

Now 4 of our 5 starting pitchers are all key pieces to the rebuild . Can we honestly keep rooting for losses when these guys pitch ? We can't  think we can get good pitching and lose enough to continue tanking can we ?

Now next year Eloy will be here full time along with some young bullpen arms.  Yes the position players are all still pretty much disasters Maybe Abreu , Anderson and Moncada will be here still . In Abreu's case who knows ? Right now we are a team full of DH's and utility players and guys on the cusp of being non tendered or jettisoned in some other fashion.

So what's the plan moving forward this off season ? CF looks bleak in free agency and there's not much there for 3rd base either our 2 weakest positions. Machado is presumably a SS . He and Harper don't seem likely but there are still plenty of talented players out there.

I think the key might be who is going to get a qualifying offer among the remaining free agents. Until the new CBA it's possible the owners keep the contracts offered to aging players low. If there is a lack of QO's then perhaps the Sox take a bigger plunge into free agency then we might otherwise think. The off season should be very very interesting.

Is it worth it to try to give out smaller contracts to guys who can bridge the gap for another year or continue to search for diamonds in the rough? That didn't work out real well this season and I don't expect much help from anyone on Charlotte outside of relief pitchers, With so many holes offensively and defensively even good luck with trades or FA probably doesn't mean the playoffs next year. But with so many holes some have to be plugged right ? It's all not just going to happen overnight and relying on the 2020 free agent class could be a disaster if the Sox strike out there.

 

It will be interesting to see what direction the organization goes. I doubt any big name free agents will be interested in the Sox, rebuild promise or not so I hope they turn to and sign some guys that can improve the play of the team, help teach the youngsters and if needed be trading chips come next July.

I think the Sox have got to now start showing some real progress in the win / lose column, another season where they win 60 games coming on the heels of six straight losing seasons is stretching the patience of everyone. They won't make the playoffs in 2019 but they need to become respectable.

[Jose Abreu]

12 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I approve of this thread. As long as: a) the Sox finish top 10 this year in the draft and don't have to worry about losing their 1st rounder for signing a big fish free agent and b) Moncada, Anderson and the SP are fueling the wins, I couldn't care less if they're drafting 3rd, 6th or 9th.

I'm not sure I follow your first point- are you saying, hypothetically, you wouldn't want us to sign Machado or Harper because you'd rather keep the draft pick? 

[Chicago White Sox]

Machado should be the goal.  Obviously that’s a lofty goal, but we should be putting all chips on the table to make it happen.  Regardless, I’d love to sign some vets to 1 to 2 year deals at key areas of need.  Outside of 3B, we could use a CF, DH, SP, & a RH reliever.  While I’m not anticipating it necessarily, I think we should be positioned to take advantage of potential massive leaps from Moncada, Lopez, & Giolito next year.  We should be past the point of running Adam Engel tier prospects out there on a nicely basis and hoping we get lucky.

[Jack Parkman]

4 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

I'm not sure I follow your first point- are you saying, hypothetically, you wouldn't want us to sign Machado or Harper because you'd rather keep the draft pick? 

No, that isn't what I was saying. Obviously they aren't anywhere close to finishing 11th from the bottom. However. Machado was traded so it doesn't matter with him. He's not QO eligible. If they get Harper and they lose #11 i really don't care anyway. What I was saying was that I'd prefer they didn't have to worry about it and they can continue to add to their already awesome minor league system. However once they get to the point where they would lose a 1st rounder for signing FA, I'd prefer they become picky about who they're wiling to give up that pick for. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[Jose Abreu]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

No, that isn't what I was saying. Obviously they aren't anywhere close to finishing 11th from the bottom. However. Machado was traded so it doesn't matter with him. He's not QO eligible. If they get Harper and they lose #11 i really don't care anyway. What I was saying was that I'd prefer they didn't have to worry about it and they can continue to add to their already awesome minor league system. 

Oh, my confusion more stemmed from the fact that I wasn't aware that picking in the top 10 would guarantee that we keep that first round pick even if we sign one of them (just Harper since Machado isn't QO eligible as you said). My bad 

[Jack Parkman]

13 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Machado should be the goal.  Obviously that’s a lofty goal, but we should be putting all chips on the table to make it happen.  Regardless, I’d love to sign some vets to 1 to 2 year deals at key areas of need.  Outside of 3B, we could use a CF, DH, SP, & a RH reliever.  While I’m not anticipating it necessarily, I think we should be positioned to take advantage of potential massive leaps from Moncada, Lopez, & Giolito next year.  We should be past the point of running Adam Engel tier prospects out there on a nicely basis and hoping we get lucky.

You seem like a cool dude, it was nice meeting you on Kopech Day. PM me and I'd like to get together sometime and watch a game in Schaumburg or something. Machado will be a hot commodity on the open market and might get more than Harper because there is no draft pick attached to him, not to mention Machado has had a MUCH better season than Harper this year. I think Harper is more realistic than Machado because Harper's market is kind of limited, and they won't have to spend with the big boys who can outspend everyone for him. In my mind, Harper has 3 realistic suitors:  The Nationals, Diamondbacks and White Sox. WIth Machado, they might have to compete with the Cubs. Dodgers and Yankees, which isn't really a fair fight. Those teams don't have room for Harper, whether due to a crowded outfield, the luxury tax or both. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Jack Parkman

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Nope. I want them to lose all but 3 games the rest of the season. Give me another top 5 draft pick, top 3 if we can hang on to it. 

[footlongcomiskeydog]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

On August 1st we had a thread that asked "Is This Rock Bottom ? "

On August 19th a thread told us "Michael Kopech called up . "

Now 4 of our 5 starting pitchers are all key pieces to the rebuild . Can we honestly keep rooting for losses when these guys pitch ? We can't  think we can get good pitching and lose enough to continue tanking can we ?

Now next year Eloy will be here full time along with some young bullpen arms.  Yes the position players are all still pretty much disasters Maybe Abreu , Anderson and Moncada will be here still . In Abreu's case who knows ? Right now we are a team full of DH's and utility players and guys on the cusp of being non tendered or jettisoned in some other fashion.

So what's the plan moving forward this off season ? CF looks bleak in free agency and there's not much there for 3rd base either our 2 weakest positions. Machado is presumably a SS . He and Harper don't seem likely but there are still plenty of talented players out there.

I think the key might be who is going to get a qualifying offer among the remaining free agents. Until the new CBA it's possible the owners keep the contracts offered to aging players low. If there is a lack of QO's then perhaps the Sox take a bigger plunge into free agency then we might otherwise think. The off season should be very very interesting.

Is it worth it to try to give out smaller contracts to guys who can bridge the gap for another year or continue to search for diamonds in the rough? That didn't work out real well this season and I don't expect much help from anyone on Charlotte outside of relief pitchers, With so many holes offensively and defensively even good luck with trades or FA probably doesn't mean the playoffs next year. But with so many holes some have to be plugged right ? It's all not just going to happen overnight and relying on the 2020 free agent class could be a disaster if the Sox strike out there.

 

The past two world series champions set a nice example of a successful rebuilding timeline. 2019 will be year 3 of the White Sox rebuild. Let's look at the Astros and Cubs for comparison. 

The Cubs went 73 and 89 during the 2014 season (year 3 of their rebuild). Anthony Rizzo was the only opening day starter who would be on World Series team two years later.

The Astros went 51 and 111 during 2013 (year 3 of their rebuild). Marwin Gonzalez and Jose Altuve were the only position players on the 2013 team that factored in the 2017 World Series run. Dallas Kuechel and Brad Peacock were the only pitchers.

I think it is pretty safe to say that 2019 will be another losing season on the South Side. It will be a developmental year and most likely the majority of the players on the roster will not factor into the next White Sox World Series Championship team. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by footlongcomiskeydog

[Jose Abreu]

11 minutes ago, ChiliIrishHammock24 said:

Nope. I want them to lose all but 3 games the rest of the season. Give me another top 5 draft pick, top 3 if we can hang on to it. 

So, by proxy, you want Moncada, Anderson, Giolito, Rodon, Lopez, and Kopech to have awful finishes to the year. Doesn't seem too prudent to me

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

3 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

So, by proxy, you want Moncada, Anderson, Giolito, Rodon, Lopez, and Kopech to have awful finishes to the year. Doesn't seem too prudent to me

Nope. I want our bullpen to blow any and all games. Complete meltdowns. 

[Jose Abreu]

10 minutes ago, ChiliIrishHammock24 said:

Nope. I want our bullpen to blow any and all games. Complete meltdowns. 

That's a nice thought and would be the perfect long-term scenario, but the chances of it happening are so slim that by wishing for only 3 wins the rest of the year, you kind of have to be wishing for bad months from all those key guys 

[BlackSox13]

I hope the Sox finish outside the top five picks for next year's draft. That would mean some young players played some good baseball and I'm fine with that. Time to start learning how to win. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

I said it a week ago in the “16-16 since July 10” thread, the worst of the rebuild is certainly behind us. Let the fun begin 😀

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

7 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Machado should be the goal.  Obviously that’s a lofty goal, but we should be putting all chips on the table to make it happen.  Regardless, I’d love to sign some vets to 1 to 2 year deals at key areas of need.  Outside of 3B, we could use a CF, DH, SP, & a RH reliever.  While I’m not anticipating it necessarily, I think we should be positioned to take advantage of potential massive leaps from Moncada, Lopez, & Giolito next year.  We should be past the point of running Adam Engel tier prospects out there on a nicely basis and hoping we get lucky.

Any concern about Machado’s second half numbers? They are in line with his numbers from last season. Question is, with a Machado signing are you getting first half 2018 Machado or 2017/second half 2018 Machado moving forward? The first one is worth $35M AAV. The second one is not.

[daggins]

The real test of whether the tank is over will be:

1. Can they at least play respectable baseball against the Yanks and Red Sox this week?

2. Will they call up Eloy on Sept 1?

If the answer to both is yes, then I buy that the tank is over.

[Chicago White Sox]

56 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Any concern about Machado’s second half numbers? They are in line with his numbers from last season. Question is, with a Machado signing are you getting first half 2018 Machado or 2017/second half 2018 Machado moving forward? The first one is worth $35M AAV. The second one is not.

Without diving too deeply, I think they’re just normal in-season variances.  In aggregate his numbers are fantastic and he’d still be a plus defensive 3B.  I have no problem throwing 10/$350M at Machado.  He should be our #1 target without question this offseason.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Without diving too deeply, I think they’re just normal in-season variances.  In aggregate his numbers are fantastic and he’d still be a plus defensive 3B.  I have no problem throwing 10/$350M at Machado.  He should be our #1 target without question this offseason.

I like Machado but tend to think he’s overrated. I have a feeling that he’s going to be a disappointment to whatever team signs him. If he’s the upper 700s OPS guy with above average defense that’s nice and all but not worth $350M imo. I’d rather grab a guy like Rendon next winter for half the cost and years with similar or better production and allocate the saved dollars to fill holes elsewhere within the roster.

Edited August 26, 2018 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[caulfield12]

Donaldson was already wiped off many lists from a year ago...now how likely that Arenado and Rendon both make it to free agency?

 

[Chicago White Sox]

30 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I like Machado but tend to think he’s overrated. I have a feeling that he’s going to be a disappointment to whatever team signs him. If he’s the upper 700s OPS guy with above average defense that’s nice and all but not worth $350M imo. I’d rather grab a guy like Rendon next winter for half the cost and years with similar or better production and allocate the saved dollars to fill holes elsewhere within the roster.

He’s had one season below an .860 OPS in the last four years.  I don’t see why we’d suddenly expect significantly less from a 26 year old going forward.  Add elite 3B defense and what his signing would mean to the organization and 10/$350M is clearly worth it IMO.  And I’m not against a Rendon signing, but I want to maximize my chances of landing a stud 3B and that means going after Manny this offseason and then Arenado & Rendon the following if we miss.

[NWINFan]

One hopeful sign I see is that the Sox are starting to do better against the AL Central. Obviously, a team won't go far if it loses in its own division, which the Sox have done in recent years. And I don't see big things for the Twins, Royals and Tigers.

Regarding Harper: I know this guy is a great talent, but he is also an incredible hot head.  The Sox will need to add some veteran talent if they are really going to win. I just don't know if Harper is the kind of veteran presence that the team needs.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I see that a few of you still think Machado will agree to play 3rd base despite all evidence to the contrary from him.  Do you think he'll change his mind when huge dollars are thrown at him by teams that say we want to sign you but as a 3rd baseman ? He really hasn't budged on his stance that he is a SS at all.

[Dick Allen]

10 hours ago, Jose Abreu said:

I'm not sure I follow your first point- are you saying, hypothetically, you wouldn't want us to sign Machado or Harper because you'd rather keep the draft pick? 

No draft pick for Machadonow, and if losing a 2nd rounder is motivation not to sign Bryce Harper, the White Sox must think they will draft a HOFer with that pick.