soulfly Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 Garbage man says garbage things, a video. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 44 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: The thing is, those types of team friendly deals are a thing of the past. Now you get the Eloy, Moncada, Robert type deals. Those don't create a lot of surplus unless the guy is a perennial all star performer. In other words, unless guys live up to their potential? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 14 minutes ago, JoeC said: In other words, unless guys live up to their potential? Sale, Q, and Eaton all made less than half what the Sox will pay Moncada next year. Eaton 4 years almost as much as Eloys last season by itself. Young players aren’t giving the bargains they used to give. Good for them. Bad for frugal organizations like the White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baseball_gal_aly Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 31 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said: Don’t get me wrong, it needs to happen…but whatever we have to sell isn’t going to turn this franchise around. Cease is about the only guy I can see netting us any kind of significant prospect. Sadly the only turn around for the Sox is probably tank mode for 3-4 years at least. It’s not like they can clear the cap and then sign big free agents, we all know that isn’t happening until Jerry is gone. Plus, just the idea of Hahn starting another rebuild is crazy. Trade whoever you can that isn’t under contract next year and then let a new front office (KW must go too) make the decisions on the rest in the off-season. See Balta1701's post about why Cease won't get you much right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 2 hours ago, Dick Allen said: The funny thing is Hahn did a much better job trading his better players for prospects than most GMs do. Look at the crap the Tigers got for Verlander. If he did average on the Sale, Q and Eaton trades, this team would be now on over a decade since playing a meaningful game. They don't have that type of currency anymore. Common sense would lead anyone to believe RH and KW have to go, now. He did well on the trades, but I think there’s evidence that even the gems from those deals suffered from the infrastructure they came into. With the one major exception of Giolito* — all of those prospects are, essentially, the same players they were when they were obtained, with the same flaws, just with more experience and practice. If they hadn’t targeted players that were already just a step away from the big leagues, I can’t imagine it would even look like they won those deals. All of the secondary pieces have amounted to the same pile of nothing that every non-first round prospect that Sox have drafted has, and the “no-doubters” have become the talented but frustratingly inconsistent and overall disappointing major leaguers that every first rounder the Sox drafted has. You’re correct to point out that they don’t have the same level of currency to deal from, but ill just add that even if we could be sure that they would get the most fromwhat they have again this time around, I don’t think we want those new players spending even a moment in this toxic farm system. *One could also argue Cease, but until we see evidence that he can reliably harness his command in the long term, I’d argue that the season he had last year was always in the realm of possibility; the result of the stuff he always had plus an extended streak of good location. The type of season that’s a 90+% outcome for a player like him, and every year a handful of players pull out that 90th percentile without necessarily raising their floors. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 9 minutes ago, baseballgalaly said: See Balta1701's post about why Cease won't get you much right now. Hard disagree here. This is a guy coming off a Cy Young worthy season who is controlled for 2 1/2 more years. He would absolutely still return a very nice package if traded now. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 14 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Sale, Q, and Eaton all made less than half what the Sox will pay Moncada next year. Eaton 4 years almost as much as Eloys last season by itself. Young players aren’t giving the bargains they used to give. Good for them. Bad for frugal organizations like the White Sox. Yeah, not really disputing that - just stating that you DO have to give Hahn credit for the 2016 rebuild, including maximizing player value in the years leading up to 2016. No more, no less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 27 minutes ago, JoeC said: Yeah, not really disputing that - just stating that you DO have to give Hahn credit for the 2016 rebuild, including maximizing player value in the years leading up to 2016. No more, no less. The problem is he couldn’t build a team around those guys even though they were playing for peanuts. He did a great job getting them signed, no question. Their surplus value got him more prospects who he couldn’t build around either. There seems to be a pattern. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johno Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 Should the question not be, how much more talent can you get if they decide to trade some of their players right now versus waiting for the trade deadline? With out a doubt, this team will NOT make a run for the playoffs, based on this, start trading now and ask for more talent in return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 1 hour ago, T R U said: Hard disagree here. This is a guy coming off a Cy Young worthy season who is controlled for 2 1/2 more years. He would absolutely still return a very nice package if traded now. But no team is going to give you that at the trade deadline if he is still showing a decreased fastball and dramatically worse performance. You can ask for that all you want and teams will just look elsewhere. You cannot make other teams do things that are bad for them just because you want them to, they will either expect him at a huge discount compared to what he would have returned last offseason or they will just find other options. The only way he is worth that "Very nice package", anything that would really help the White Sox, is if he finds a groove very soon. He certainly could, but teams will only give up multiple top prospects for him if he does so. Right now, he doesn't help me win a title the way he's performing. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejoesox Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 2 hours ago, T R U said: Hard disagree here. This is a guy coming off a Cy Young worthy season who is controlled for 2 1/2 more years. He would absolutely still return a very nice package if traded now. Agreed. If Hahn is taking multiple calls on Cease, you have to listen if they make you a substantial offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baseball_gal_aly Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, T R U said: Hard disagree here. This is a guy coming off a Cy Young worthy season who is controlled for 2 1/2 more years. He would absolutely still return a very nice package if traded now. Nobody's trading a lot for a fluke season that was driven by stranding runners on base and a low BABIP/HR rate. Cease's career ERAs: 2019: 5.79 2020: 4.01 2021: 3.91 2022: 2.20 2023: 4.88 One of these things is not like the other; one of these things does not belong. Cease's fastball is down a full mph and his walk rate is even worse than last year. Edited June 1, 2023 by baseballgalaly 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 7 hours ago, T R U said: Is there any other team in baseball in a worse position than the White Sox? The minor league system is bare. The controlled assets on the main roster are either under performing or sunk costs which means if they do try to sell they will get diminished returns. The payroll is seemingly maxed and the budget is on the way down based on a abysmal 2023 season. They wont ever do what it takes to sign a superstar. They wont hold anyone accountable and in the off chance Hahn is relieved of his duties they wont go outside of the organization to replace him and change the culture. Where is the light at the end of the tunnel? The Padres are 4 games under .500, in a mediocre market, with 3 massive contracts paying 2 players into their 40's and a 3rd who's a juicer idiot that's always injured. If it doesn't work out in the next year or two, they're absolutely crippled for over a decade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCredeYes Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Johno said: Should the question not be, how much more talent can you get if they decide to trade some of their players right now versus waiting for the trade deadline? With out a doubt, this team will NOT make a run for the playoffs, based on this, start trading now and ask for more talent in return. I'm sure there's a delicate balancing act of waiting just long enough for teams to decide they're buyers and creating a bidding war that needs to be considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan49 Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 14 minutes ago, baseballgalaly said: Nobody's trading a lot for a fluke season that was driven by stranding runners on base and a low BABIP/HR rate. Cease's career ERAs: 2019: 5.79 2020: 4.01 2021: 3.91 2022: 2.20 2023: 4.88 One of these things is not like the other; one of these things does not belong. Cease's fastball is down a full mph and his walk rate is even worse than last year. Who was the weirdo poster who said Katz fixed Giolito and Cease? 😅 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 24 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: The Padres are 4 games under .500, in a mediocre market, with 3 massive contracts paying 2 players into their 40's and a 3rd who's a juicer idiot that's always injured. If it doesn't work out in the next year or two, they're absolutely crippled for over a decade. They have a better far farm system despite a boatload of massive trades. Salas, 16 year old future top prospect at catcher already in A ball. They could also turn around and trade Soto and Hader and get a lot back at the deadline and doing a competing every other year thing like the Giants of a decade ago. They have a billionaire owner willing to spend who looks at the team as more a hobby and passion than purely a profit machine. And they just added 1.8 million potential subscribers through MLB.tv compared to their current base of just 1.1 million. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chetkincaid Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 1 hour ago, TaylorStSox said: The Padres are 4 games under .500, in a mediocre market, with 3 massive contracts paying 2 players into their 40's and a 3rd who's a juicer idiot that's always injured. If it doesn't work out in the next year or two, they're absolutely crippled for over a decade. All the Padres have to do is sneak into the playoffs with a wildcard and they are a serious threat to win the WS. That team has too much talent to bet against. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 Just now, chetkincaid said: All the Padres have to do is sneak into the playoffs with a wildcard and they are a serious threat to win the WS. That team has too much talent to bet against. As of yesterday, they were still the FG favorite for the WC. Despite having historical bad BA and RISP, they've been pretty competitive...and then 3 crushing blown saves by Hader, which is a bit out of character...but save percentages have been down by roughly 15% as pitchers continue to make adjustments, especially closers used to taking all the time they wanted to throw a pitch in high leverage. Of course 75% of the fanbase wants Preller and Melvin canned immediately. Mets in a very similar situation, in terms of payroll and fan/ownership expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 There's another thing to consider with the White Sox/Padres parallels: For at least one more season, the White Sox are locked into huge contracts based on a predicted future payroll of $100-125 million in the next 2-3 years. You've still got Benintendi, Anderson (maybe), Robert, Moncada ($24 million), Kimbrel, etc., still taking up a huge percentage of the 2024 payroll. The Padres are running almost twice the payroll...Machado was nearly the MVP last year, Tatis has put up MVP numbers (when actually on the field, and now his shoulder is finally fixed and he's adjusted quite well to RF on the fly) and you also have Bogaerts, who has been one of the most consistent quiet producers in baseball the last half decade. Balta has debated this issue of signing superstars in FA (or extending young players) over and over again versus playing in the Tier B/C kiddie pool/kiddie seats set aside in the basement for Thanksgiving/Christmas. Unless or until they sign either Soto or Ohtani, they will be able to make the economics of this work because of Seidler. And meanwhile, the value of that franchise has been increasing year by year. https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/story/2023-05-28/padres-are-planning-a-20m-makeover-of-petco-parks-gallagher-square Developments like Ricketts around Wrigley generating additional revenues. One of the five best stadiums in baseball. Better weather. And Seidler is an outspoken advocate for the homeless and financing of homeless communities/tent cities...so actually MUCH more well-liked than Reinsdorf...so lots of community buy-in and enthusiasm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 3 hours ago, Dick Allen said: The problem is he couldn’t build a team around those guys even though they were playing for peanuts. He did a great job getting them signed, no question. Their surplus value got him more prospects who he couldn’t build around either. There seems to be a pattern. 100% agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baseball_gal_aly Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 (edited) I hate to say this, but the Sox are gonna have to draft, internationally sign, and develop their way out of this mess. There's not much if anything of value to other teams on this roster. Edited June 2, 2023 by baseballgalaly 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 11 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: There's another thing to consider with the White Sox/Padres parallels: For at least one more season, the White Sox are locked into huge contracts based on a predicted future payroll of $100-125 million in the next 2-3 years. You've still got Benintendi, Anderson (maybe), Robert, Moncada ($24 million), Kimbrel, etc., still taking up a huge percentage of the 2024 payroll. The Padres are running almost twice the payroll...Machado was nearly the MVP last year, Tatis has put up MVP numbers (when actually on the field, and now his shoulder is finally fixed and he's adjusted quite well to RF on the fly) and you also have Bogaerts, who has been one of the most consistent quiet producers in baseball the last half decade. Balta has debated this issue of signing superstars in FA (or extending young players) over and over again versus playing in the Tier B/C kiddie pool/kiddie seats set aside in the basement for Thanksgiving/Christmas. Unless or until they sign either Soto or Ohtani, they will be able to make the economics of this work because of Seidler. And meanwhile, the value of that franchise has been increasing year by year. https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/story/2023-05-28/padres-are-planning-a-20m-makeover-of-petco-parks-gallagher-square Developments like Ricketts around Wrigley generating additional revenues. One of the five best stadiums in baseball. Better weather. And Seidler is an outspoken advocate for the homeless and financing of homeless communities/tent cities...so actually MUCH more well-liked than Reinsdorf...so lots of community buy-in and enthusiasm. Tatis - .743 OPS. >375 PA's once in 5 years. Season ending shoulder injury. 80 game PED suspension - owed $325 million into age 36 season Machado - .654 OPS. Owed $333 million into age 40 season Bogaerts - .742 OPS. Owed $255 million into age 40 season Obviously everyone would rather have the Padres current roster, but they're in serious trouble if the team continues to underachieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said: Tatis - .743 OPS. >375 PA's once in 5 years. Season ending shoulder injury. 80 game PED suspension - owed $325 million into age 36 season Machado - .654 OPS. Owed $333 million into age 40 season Bogaerts - .742 OPS. Owed $255 million into age 40 season Obviously everyone would rather have the Padres current roster, but they're in serious trouble if the team continues to underachieve. Tatis is back up to almost .800 after today. He's still rusty as a hitter. Striking out way too much. Shoulder and wrist issues addressed by offseason surgeries, first time he listened to the team doctors and took their advice instead of putting those procedures off. Machado has been bad (for ONE month), but he was one of the five best players in baseball last year, and has been a consistent All-Star since 2020 (2019 was rough, adjusting to a new team and city with a non-contending team). Bogaerts as long as he can hit has value, but most of his fWAR value right now is coming from how good a fielder he is...which is top 5-10% in the big leagues. Eventually Bogaerts moves to 2B or 3B as he ages...but that's still a number of years away. Or DH/1B. Same with Machado. Edited June 2, 2023 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 2 hours ago, baseballgalaly said: Nobody's trading a lot for a fluke season that was driven by stranding runners on base and a low BABIP/HR rate. Cease's career ERAs: 2019: 5.79 2020: 4.01 2021: 3.91 2022: 2.20 2023: 4.88 One of these things is not like the other; one of these things does not belong. Cease's fastball is down a full mph and his walk rate is even worse than last year. 2019: 14 starts 2020: 12 starts 2021: 32 starts 2022: 32 starts 2023: 12 starts Seems to me the SSS numbers are what doesn’t belong. Over a full season of starts he’s been a good pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted June 2, 2023 Share Posted June 2, 2023 No reason to panic . The Sox are intent on turning things around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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