Snowy Demon Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 minute ago, Nardiwashere said: What is your point? (That sounds snarky but it isn't intended to be). Contract values for these teams. Each team has budget. Because of that, payroll numbers are not what each team spends on actual payroll. People just saw how Ohtani contract was structured to reduce luxury tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nardiwashere Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Just now, WhiteSox2023 said: I thought it was that the Orioles have a bigger advantage with Cease’s salary compared to other teams. But everything is relative based on each team’s payroll. It may be a huge deal to the Orioles cuz their owner won’t allow them to add much payroll but the additional tax hikes on Cease’a salary wouldn’t really matter too much like the Yankees and Dodgers. And how much does a 19 million dollar alternative (who isn't as good) cost the big guys after the tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: At the end of the day, Baltimore's window is already going to be narrow. They have small market mentality ownership and leadership. With every door they close to talent acquisition, it makes the eye of the needle they have to thread to stick around the playoff hunt even narrower. Every time someone around them adds on, it narrows it again. ^^^ This right here. It's why they never win anything, and likely won't win anything in the next few years. You cannot win without supplementing your roster from the outside via trade or the FA market. They will half-ass their roster like RH and KW did with the Sox in 2021-2023. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Look, we have 477 posts of your posts of this circular logic. Here's the deal. -The White Sox have two real assets left in Cease and Robert. Luis probably isn't going anywhere for a year, maybe two. Dylan is the only one that is starting to get into the zone. -The White Sox did this exact same thing with Jose Quintana and it paid off in spades in terms of prospect returns. One of the return you may have heard of? -This is the White Sox chance at a home run, and being able get the absolute best deal possible is the key, not when it happens. The Sox don't care about 2024 or 25, at least, no matter what the idiots reporting quotes without follow up questions say. Their actions speak louder than anything. -You keep telling us how much greater the O's system is than anywhere else, but if you skim the cream off of the top, which you seem to think is somewhere between their top 3 or 4 prospects, that greatness doesn't matter. It opens the door for other teams to be able to step in front of any offer. Those "offers" become extremely beatable. -Sure there is risk to the White Sox with Cease, but with Baltimore standing on their own dicks this winter and watching the world go by them, there is just as much risk to Baltimore losing out on a Cease and seeing regression of players they are relying on. If the Sox of 2020-21 taught us anything is that assuming an upward trajectory for literally everyone is pushing all in on a risky bet. That bet gets more dangerous if another AL East team pushes in front of Baltimore and he goes to a competitor. -You keep telling us how Elias sets his price and that is it, and that's cool. But it just means that that also leaves the door open for a more daring GM to take the player away from them. -You can't tell someone they have zero idea that the offers are poor as a criticism and then immediately say that the Sox are asking too much, when you also have no idea what Getz has exactly asked for, and what other offers look like to see how outrageous that is. If you look at historic deals and at what the cost of pitching is these days, outrageous deals of 5 years ago may well be the new norm for cost controlled pitching. Otherwise pay a guy like Snell on the open market, right? Oh wait, they won't. -At the end of the day, Baltimore's window is already going to be narrow. They have small market mentality ownership and leadership. With every door they close to talent acquisition, it makes the eye of the needle they have to thread to stick around the playoff hunt even narrower. Every time someone around them adds on, it narrows it again. Royals had four years, precisely. 2013-2016. 2017 already well on their way to a tear down. For every Elias or Hahn that waits due to ownership for favorable market conditions to eventually somehow favor them, a SD will jump in and take away a Machado, or the Phillies with Harper and Wheeler. The ONLY time this worked in FA for the Sox was when only COL needed a 1B, so they got Abreu before 2014 in a two team race…and then the Cuban Connection was enough to push Robert from St. Louis to Chicago despite actually being outbid by a historically much better franchise. Who picks Baltimore over roughly 23-25 big league markets? Maybe the National Aquarium…or USS Constitution. Edited January 12 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy Demon Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 5 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said: Didn’t one of you Orioles posters argue that money means nothing for literally those teams listed? Money always matters. No one has unlimited budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 minute ago, Snowy Demon said: Money always matters. No one has unlimited budget. Except Los Angeles… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 4 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said: ^^^ This right here. It's why they never win anything, and likely won't win anything in the next few years. You cannot win without supplementing your roster from the outside via trade or the FA market. They will half-ass their roster like RH and KW did with the Sox in 2021-2023. Basically, the Orioles need a good cheap starter like Cease more than the Sox need to only trade him to the Orioles. There are other teams to deal Cease to and if the offers truly aren’t good enough right now, they can still hang on to Cease until the trade deadline (even though I don’t agree at all with this strategy primarily due to the risk of injury). How many other realistic starter options are there for the Orioles that don’t have much money to spend but a glut of prospects (and some redundancy) to trade? Edited January 12 by WhiteSox2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 14 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Look, we have 477 posts of your posts of this circular logic. Here's the deal. -The White Sox have two real assets left in Cease and Robert. Luis probably isn't going anywhere for a year, maybe two. Dylan is the only one that is starting to get into the zone. -The White Sox did this exact same thing with Jose Quintana and it paid off in spades in terms of prospect returns. One of the return you may have heard of? -This is the White Sox chance at a home run, and being able get the absolute best deal possible is the key, not when it happens. The Sox don't care about 2024 or 25, at least, no matter what the idiots reporting quotes without follow up questions say. Their actions speak louder than anything. -You keep telling us how much greater the O's system is than anywhere else, but if you skim the cream off of the top, which you seem to think is somewhere between their top 3 or 4 prospects, that greatness doesn't matter. It opens the door for other teams to be able to step in front of any offer. Those "offers" become extremely beatable. -Sure there is risk to the White Sox with Cease, but with Baltimore standing on their own dicks this winter and watching the world go by them, there is just as much risk to Baltimore losing out on a Cease and seeing regression of players they are relying on. If the Sox of 2020-21 taught us anything is that assuming an upward trajectory for literally everyone is pushing all in on a risky bet. That bet gets more dangerous if another AL East team pushes in front of Baltimore and he goes to a competitor. -You keep telling us how Elias sets his price and that is it, and that's cool. But it just means that that also leaves the door open for a more daring GM to take the player away from them. -You can't tell someone they have zero idea that the offers are poor as a criticism and then immediately say that the Sox are asking too much, when you also have no idea what Getz has exactly asked for, and what other offers look like to see how outrageous that is. If you look at historic deals and at what the cost of pitching is these days, outrageous deals of 5 years ago may well be the new norm for cost controlled pitching. Otherwise pay a guy like Snell on the open market, right? Oh wait, they won't. -At the end of the day, Baltimore's window is already going to be narrow. They have small market mentality ownership and leadership. With every door they close to talent acquisition, it makes the eye of the needle they have to thread to stick around the playoff hunt even narrower. Every time someone around them adds on, it narrows it again. Fantastic post! He's amassed 463 and counting posts in this thread as an O's fan, but won't respond to this one! 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 3 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said: ^^^ This right here. It's why they never win anything, and likely won't win anything in the next few years. You cannot win without supplementing your roster from the outside via trade or the FA market. They will half-ass their roster like RH and KW did with the Sox in 2021-2023. FWIW, I mostly disagree with this. They have a limited supply of talent, and they are going to have hard choices coming up, but they don't have to go all-in on one of them yet. Just like other teams don't have a good handle on their needs next July right now, the Orioles don't either. If they have a large lead in the AL East mid-year next year, or their pitchers stay healthy and perform, they may not need an enormous buy at the time. If someone like Cleveland or Milwaukee struggles, they may be able to buy a pitcher for a lower price. Or, they could be in a tight race and clearly in need of a TOR starter, and Cease could prove he's that guy. For Baltimore's situation, trying to trade a veteran or two but holding onto their guys tightly until they absolutely have to make a decision is a very rational path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 18 minutes ago, Snowy Demon said: Money always matters. No one has unlimited budget. I know. Just pointing out an O’s poster (maybe you) said otherwise recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southwest Sider Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 I love that Sports Guy is still here trying to convince us that the Sox should lower their demands. If the choice is to accept a package of mid prospects then what is even the point? Mid prospects won't move the needle and we can't develop them anyway. We need a teams 1st or 2nd best to get a deal. Cease should have a much better defense behind him next year and frankly it's worth the risk to just roll with him and see what he does. If an TJ knocks on the door oh well, life's tough and so is being a Sox fan. If he pitches same as last year than OK we can lower the demands to basically what is being offered right now. If he's lights out than obviously that is good. Service time does not matter because the trade deadline itself can create a ton of extra value and teams will still look at the trade like "I got Cease for my playoff run AND all of next year". Getz has no reason to lower his demands. And he shouldn't be scared to roll with Dylan because he might get injured. Let the teams who need pitching go ahead and sign subpar free agents and make subpar trades just to come calling again when the TDL hits. I believe Dylan Cease is an elite pitcher, will be again next year after the anomaly of 2023, and I think Getz believes that too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 24 minutes ago, SoCalChiSox said: He's fine as a second piece but not a primary one. Dude is rapidly aging and is right handed. IMO the holdup in this trade are the first and third pieces, not the second. I believe Getz is insisting on Cowser and Elias is offering Kjerstad and Getz wants Povich and Elias is saying no. Just my sense from everything I've seen. No one with any intelligence is saying Ortiz should be able to headline the deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 18 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: Fantastic post! He's amassed 463 and counting posts in this thread as an O's fan, but won't respond to this one! Can I physically see a post before I respond to it? Or am I supposed to just assume the post is there before it exists and respond to it out of thin air? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 2 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: Can I physically see a post before I respond to it? Or am I supposed to just assume the post is there before it exists and respond to it out of thin air? It was posted 36 minutes ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nardiwashere Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: No one with any intelligence is saying Ortiz should be able to headline the deal. About a page ago, you said it was reasonable to believe Cowser/Kjersted was an overpay. Your exact words were "I am in favor of moving one of Cowser or Kjerstad. However, I think it’s fair to wonder if that’s too much." You have said Holliday, Mayo, Basallo are off the table. Who does that leave? Edited January 12 by Nardiwashere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 45 minutes ago, fathom said: Also, FWIW, I’ve flip flopped and want the Sox to hold on to Cease if the offers aren’t awesome. This team needs a miracle to improve the talent level, so Cease pitching like his amazing run during 2022 leading up to the 24 deadline might be the best way to acquire impact talent. Agreed. If there isn't an acceptable package now. Roll the dice at the trade deadline. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 34 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Look, we have 477 posts of your posts of this circular logic. Here's the deal. -The White Sox have two real assets left in Cease and Robert. Luis probably isn't going anywhere for a year, maybe two. Dylan is the only one that is starting to get into the zone. -The White Sox did this exact same thing with Jose Quintana and it paid off in spades in terms of prospect returns. One of the return you may have heard of? -This is the White Sox chance at a home run, and being able get the absolute best deal possible is the key, not when it happens. The Sox don't care about 2024 or 25, at least, no matter what the idiots reporting quotes without follow up questions say. Their actions speak louder than anything. -You keep telling us how much greater the O's system is than anywhere else, but if you skim the cream off of the top, which you seem to think is somewhere between their top 3 or 4 prospects, that greatness doesn't matter. It opens the door for other teams to be able to step in front of any offer. Those "offers" become extremely beatable. -Sure there is risk to the White Sox with Cease, but with Baltimore standing on their own dicks this winter and watching the world go by them, there is just as much risk to Baltimore losing out on a Cease and seeing regression of players they are relying on. If the Sox of 2020-21 taught us anything is that assuming an upward trajectory for literally everyone is pushing all in on a risky bet. That bet gets more dangerous if another AL East team pushes in front of Baltimore and he goes to a competitor. -You keep telling us how Elias sets his price and that is it, and that's cool. But it just means that that also leaves the door open for a more daring GM to take the player away from them. -You can't tell someone they have zero idea that the offers are poor as a criticism and then immediately say that the Sox are asking too much, when you also have no idea what Getz has exactly asked for, and what other offers look like to see how outrageous that is. If you look at historic deals and at what the cost of pitching is these days, outrageous deals of 5 years ago may well be the new norm for cost controlled pitching. Otherwise pay a guy like Snell on the open market, right? Oh wait, they won't. -At the end of the day, Baltimore's window is already going to be narrow. They have small market mentality ownership and leadership. With every door they close to talent acquisition, it makes the eye of the needle they have to thread to stick around the playoff hunt even narrower. Every time someone around them adds on, it narrows it again. 1) You guys wanting to squeeze every ounce of juice out of Cease is perfectly reasonable. I have said time and time again that I think Getz has handled this properly from the get go. However, your need to get as much possible out of Cease doesn’t increase his value. Your desire to walk away with a high end package if prospect doesn’t change what teams will trade for him. 2) So because it happened with one, means it will happen again? When they traded Quintana, did they try the offseason before, not get what they want and then got more in July? (I don’t remember) either way, even if that’s what they did, it doesn’t mean it will work again 3) see #1. 4) when did I say differently? I literally said the other day that I think you have better matches out there. I have never said the Os would blow anyone out of the water. I have always said that other teams could offer similar prospects because our top 3 aren’t there. Now, what I do think is likely is that no one is putting a BETTER lead prospect than Kjerstad or Cowser but we don’t know if Elias will put them out there either. 5) I agree with you, which I have stated many times. The only thing you seem to be missing is that Cease isn’t the only guy to help solve their pitching issue. 6) Ok and? Have I ever disagreed with that? 7) sure I can because it’s the info we have. We have an idea of what Getz is asking for. We also know a deal has not been done. We don’t know anything about anyone’s offer to say the offers have been poor. What we do know is that suitor after suitor has chosen to go other directions, even trades, to get what they want while Cease remains a CWS starting pitcher. Now, maybe all the offers have been jokes. I find that hard to believe but it’s possible…we just don’t know to say it for sure. But we do know that, so far, Getz has an asking price that has been deemed by 5-10 teams as too much. That is a known fact. I’m trying to figure out what I’m disagreeing with or what new info you are bringing to the table to go after me and post this long post? Im not even disagreeing with most of this and I never have. I think you thought this would be some kind of a “gotcha post” but it was a post filled with your hopes and dreams and things I have agreed with and said myself countless amounts of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 10 minutes ago, ptatc said: Agreed. If there isn't an acceptable package now. Roll the dice at the trade deadline. You guys have bigger balls than I do. I wonder if Getz has the stomach to do this. There is still time to make a deal and it could even happen in Spring Training if some contending team’s starting pitcher gets injured during ST. I still can’t imagine Getz having Cease start on opening day. Edited January 12 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said: About a page ago, you said it was reasonable to believe Cowser/Kjersted was an overpay. Your exact words were "I am in favor of moving one of Cowser or Kjerstad. However, I think it’s fair to wonder if that’s too much." You have said Holliday, Mayo, Basallo are off the table. Who does that leave? Do you actually read what is said or does your mind automatically take out words? And did you read the whole post for the actually context of that comment or are you again just ignoring things on purpose? Oh and that post still has absolutely nothing to do with Ortiz. Edited January 12 by Sports Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 56 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Look, we have 477 posts of your posts of this circular logic. Here's the deal. -The White Sox have two real assets left in Cease and Robert. Luis probably isn't going anywhere for a year, maybe two. Dylan is the only one that is starting to get into the zone. -The White Sox did this exact same thing with Jose Quintana and it paid off in spades in terms of prospect returns. One of the return you may have heard of? -This is the White Sox chance at a home run, and being able get the absolute best deal possible is the key, not when it happens. The Sox don't care about 2024 or 25, at least, no matter what the idiots reporting quotes without follow up questions say. Their actions speak louder than anything. -You keep telling us how much greater the O's system is than anywhere else, but if you skim the cream off of the top, which you seem to think is somewhere between their top 3 or 4 prospects, that greatness doesn't matter. It opens the door for other teams to be able to step in front of any offer. Those "offers" become extremely beatable. -Sure there is risk to the White Sox with Cease, but with Baltimore standing on their own dicks this winter and watching the world go by them, there is just as much risk to Baltimore losing out on a Cease and seeing regression of players they are relying on. If the Sox of 2020-21 taught us anything is that assuming an upward trajectory for literally everyone is pushing all in on a risky bet. That bet gets more dangerous if another AL East team pushes in front of Baltimore and he goes to a competitor. -You keep telling us how Elias sets his price and that is it, and that's cool. But it just means that that also leaves the door open for a more daring GM to take the player away from them. -You can't tell someone they have zero idea that the offers are poor as a criticism and then immediately say that the Sox are asking too much, when you also have no idea what Getz has exactly asked for, and what other offers look like to see how outrageous that is. If you look at historic deals and at what the cost of pitching is these days, outrageous deals of 5 years ago may well be the new norm for cost controlled pitching. Otherwise pay a guy like Snell on the open market, right? Oh wait, they won't. -At the end of the day, Baltimore's window is already going to be narrow. They have small market mentality ownership and leadership. With every door they close to talent acquisition, it makes the eye of the needle they have to thread to stick around the playoff hunt even narrower. Every time someone around them adds on, it narrows it again. SS2k5 reading this thread 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 20 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: 1) You guys wanting to squeeze every ounce of juice out of Cease is perfectly reasonable. I have said time and time again that I think Getz has handled this properly from the get go. However, your need to get as much possible out of Cease doesn’t increase his value. Your desire to walk away with a high end package if prospect doesn’t change what teams will trade for him. 2) So because it happened with one, means it will happen again? When they traded Quintana, did they try the offseason before, not get what they want and then got more in July? (I don’t remember) either way, even if that’s what they did, it doesn’t mean it will work again 3) see #1. 4) when did I say differently? I literally said the other day that I think you have better matches out there. I have never said the Os would blow anyone out of the water. I have always said that other teams could offer similar prospects because our top 3 aren’t there. Now, what I do think is likely is that no one is putting a BETTER lead prospect than Kjerstad or Cowser but we don’t know if Elias will put them out there either. 5) I agree with you, which I have stated many times. The only thing you seem to be missing is that Cease isn’t the only guy to help solve their pitching issue. 6) Ok and? Have I ever disagreed with that? 7) sure I can because it’s the info we have. We have an idea of what Getz is asking for. We also know a deal has not been done. We don’t know anything about anyone’s offer to say the offers have been poor. What we do know is that suitor after suitor has chosen to go other directions, even trades, to get what they want while Cease remains a CWS starting pitcher. Now, maybe all the offers have been jokes. I find that hard to believe but it’s possible…we just don’t know to say it for sure. But we do know that, so far, Getz has an asking price that has been deemed by 5-10 teams as too much. That is a known fact. I’m trying to figure out what I’m disagreeing with or what new info you are bringing to the table to go after me and post this long post? Im not even disagreeing with most of this and I never have. I think you thought this would be some kind of a “gotcha post” but it was a post filled with your hopes and dreams and things I have agreed with and said myself countless amounts of time. Look, we allow you to be here, but if you are just going to personally attack people, you won't be. It's that simple. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 32 minutes ago, Southwest Sider said: I love that Sports Guy is still here trying to convince us that the Sox should lower their demands. If the choice is to accept a package of mid prospects then what is even the point? Mid prospects won't move the needle and we can't develop them anyway. We need a teams 1st or 2nd best to get a deal. Cease should have a much better defense behind him next year and frankly it's worth the risk to just roll with him and see what he does. If an TJ knocks on the door oh well, life's tough and so is being a Sox fan. If he pitches same as last year than OK we can lower the demands to basically what is being offered right now. If he's lights out than obviously that is good. Service time does not matter because the trade deadline itself can create a ton of extra value and teams will still look at the trade like "I got Cease for my playoff run AND all of next year". Getz has no reason to lower his demands. And he shouldn't be scared to roll with Dylan because he might get injured. Let the teams who need pitching go ahead and sign subpar free agents and make subpar trades just to come calling again when the TDL hits. I believe Dylan Cease is an elite pitcher, will be again next year after the anomaly of 2023, and I think Getz believes that too. My concern is that the 2024 White Sox so far are probably worst than the 2023 version. Cease could be an elite pitcher next year but he also could have problems if he is constantly struggling to have the Sox score runs or give up additional runs because the Sox play poor defense. Hopefully, if the Sox decide to ride Cease out, he doesn't struggle with a really poor team behind him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 30 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: You guys have bigger balls than I do. I wonder if Getz has the stomach to do this. There is still time to make a deal and it could even happen in Spring Training if some contending team’s starting pitcher gets injured during ST. I still can’t imagine Getz having Cease start on opening day. That's why he gats paid the big bucks. It is taking a calculated chance but going on his injury history, a fair bet. It all depends on the current offers. Edited January 12 by ptatc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sports Guy Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Look, we allow you to be here, but if you are just going to personally attack people, you won't be. It's that simple. How is that an attack? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkokieSox Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 44 minutes ago, Sports Guy said: No one with any intelligence is saying Ortiz should be able to headline the deal. Ortiz is a fine second piece for 1 year of Cease. Cease with 2 years essentially makes Ortiz the headliner for the second year. Not good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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