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The only “leverage” the White Sox have is their ability to be the highest bidder. And in the current CBA, that is nothing to take lightly. But there are no hardline negotiation tricks the White Sox can pull that are going to change how this thing turns out. Everyone involved knows the score. Just follow the facts and logic. 1. The White Sox are in NO hurry. They have publicly expressed it, and everyone knew it anyway. They are on the up in a rebuild no matter who they sign this year. They do not expect to win in 2019, and therefore there is no reason they would ever put a hard deadline on an offer. Unlike contenders, the do not need to pivot. Any suggestion that their offer is limited or coming off the table would correctly be perceived as insubstantive, impatient bluster. 2. The White Sox have elected to give a “reasonable*” bid and have refused to move off of it until they are outbid. This is a rational course of action, even though it may frustrate Machado’s camp. Their current bid does not imply that they are not willing to go higher if necessary. Reported Mystery teams that are now interested because “the bidding is lower than expected” serve as no threat, so long as the White Sox are actually willing to win bidding up to a somewhat reasonable point. By definition, these mystery teams were not interested in the expected winning bid levels, and so the most they can do is force to White Sox to increase their bid — something they should have been willing to do from the start. 3. There is no reason for either Harper or Machado to expect that the others contract “precedent” will affect their own. This is basic economics. Whoever signs the first one will win the bidding by offering the highest amount of money that anyone was willing to offer. Therefore, there will by definition be no one left on the market that was willing to pay that amount. When you remove an asset from the market, you also remove a bidder. Each team values each asset based on their internal resources and needs, which are varied and myriad. They will not pay above the number, regardless of what other teams pay for other assets. 4. If there’s any reason for either player to worry about the other’s contract, it’s the fact that a signing effectively removes a bidder from the process. I said this a few weeks ago when the media was talking about things “getting wrapped up soon” and it remains true today: I don’t see any reason for this not to keep dragging out. Lozano knows the White Sox offer isn’t what he wants, but he also knows it isn’t going anywhere. There is no reason for him not to continue to try to find better offers all the way the wire. This remains true even if the White Sox DID decide to “bid against themselves” and increase their offer. The White Sox are still well positioned to get one of these guys, but there isn’t anything they can do to rush the process.

Caulfield, I actually really like you as a poster, but I think this thread may have caused you to go insane.

I never said something was happening at Sox fest. Chili said something was happening and and everyone was talking about that and I said something like "I wonder what the Sox do with the info" or that if he release something watch their twitter on the hour. I was operating off of something I had heard from someone else but I was not at the liberty to share and didn't see anything other than speculate. And, I don't have any info on it but Hahn said this weekend that things fell through in the last 48 hours. The Sox are setting up their moves for if they get Machado or if they don't. If Lozano has heartburn the Sox may be less inclined to complete a given move. This offseason I haven't been able to really talk about anything as a fan. I've said stuff in the beginning of the offseason and immediately had to respond to my post that was screenshotted and brought to twitter. To be clear, I may not on twitter or soxtalk all week and then yesterday I am informed that I am in the middle of some big kerfuffle where literally 75%+ of the info being thrown around is wrong and a lot of people who haven't been here for a few years is saying stuff that I don't know where they get it from. Also, please keep in mind that I work really long hours and focus on my personal life on the weekend. I may post something and not see the response to it for 5-6-7 days. I may post during lunch (like now) and then be staring into my work until 9PM. I am not running for anything, I wish I could post more. There are far too many people here who would gladly acknowledge I'll back up words far beyond where I need to go. A lot of this drama is going to happen naturally with the Sox being in the midst of this big saga but when it devolves into throwing stones at Shack I don't know what to tell you. I should say, I was very happy to see some of the older posters come in and put the hammer down on that as they historically have. I think we all *cough cough* especially the newer posters *cough cough* need to have a bit more of a questioning mindset of these new posters with sources. In the past, you'd be questioned pretty hard trying to pass info as a new poster. Now there are reddit burner accounts breaking news and anything is considered and that's fair but just try to take everything in stride. I think this whole dilemma has shown the execs aren't confident in anything. It's had the national insiders being dragged through the mud. The local insiders have looked ridiculous. People are being used left and right. The players are running out of time. Relax until then.

There once was a sauce from Nantucket Who thought Mannys contract was in the bucket It turned out to be wrong We all turned to song And now we have decided to say f@#$ it.

We are all Sox fans cheering for the same goal, but sometimes more important things matter. Stay safe this week as it will be the coldest place on Earth. Make sure your folks stay warm and in the house. I almost lost my life to bad weather so take it from me.

What in the fuck Caulfield...

Is 20 below cold enough to cryogenically freeze oneself? Asking for a friend.

The weather right now is hotter than the hot stove.

Pretty sure that was sarcasm, buddy.

One of the concepts behind doing a rebuild like this one is that if you can get enough players to fill most of your positions, you can stop wasting your money on the terrible adam laroches, melky cabreras, and stop trading talent for Todd Fraziers and Jeff Samardzijas - guys who are good to replacement level players but with high overall price tags. If you can fill 4 of your 5 starting pitching slots with young guys and 7 or 8 of your position spots with young guys, then you can take your financial assets and go after the big guys, the guys who are less likely to be Melky Cabrera or Adam Laroche disappointing. In other words, if we are adding #3 and #4 starters, then we did this wrong. We should be able to get 4-ish good enough starters out of the guys in our system that if we want to add a starting pitcher, it's a Sale or a Cole or a Verlander. We should have Anderson and Moncada and Jiminez and Robert and Collins and Palka covering position spots and lineup spots so that we can go after a Machado for 3b rather than having to sign a Moustakas and trade for a Pederson and so on to cover 4 or 5 lineup slots. Or, we have the assets in the minors (Madrigal, a couple of the OFs) to make a trade for a huge difference maker like Blake Snell or Jacob DeGrom.

So this thread really is something. I don't have sources but I do hear a lot of shit daily because I talk to people. I'd never share any of it here with strangers because it's not my info to tell and I definitely wouldn't share it under the current state of this message board. This place used to be great. It's really, really bad now. Dave, Brian, Shack, and Aaron are all good dudes and they get legit info. People share what they can share. I think everyone needs to relax and let everything play out. Calling out guys because they don't share info on your terms though? That's weak. Be better.

ERA+ of 150 or GTFO.

If we can't take a guy that touts being incarcerated at his word, then who can we?!

Let's be real, dude has been a grade A douche and has been attacking people with sources left and right. That's detrimental to the forum.

This is still going? There were all sorts of rumors late last week about a Joc Pederson deal being done. I thought it would be announced at some point over this past weekend. Those reports were apparently not true or something happened causing a deal to not be announced. Lose the fake insider act though man. You make yourself sound very unintelligent and uninformed.

You need to work on your meter

I watched some House Hunters international. It was pretty good.

The days grow longer, yet a Manny is silent. So cold winds still blow

My explanation for the Jay and Alonso acquisitions is that there were offers made at the very beginning of the off-season for both and, as the off-season progressed, the Indians decided that they weren't going to get anything better than Alex Call for Alonso and that Jon Jay was not getting a better contract elsewhere so they both accepted long-standing Sox offers. What I do not think happened is the Sox decided in mid-December to pursue both as part of a broader Machado strategy that intensified over the course of the off-season. I think those two were part of the plan all along and that the plan all along has been to get both Harper and Machado on the Sox. Still, in their heart of hearts, the Sox want Harper most. I have no source or proof for that, just a gut feeling informed by the fact that Harper had to have some idea of what was on the table when he rejected $300m from the Nationals and, at this point, it seems obvious the Phillies havent exceeded that offer from the Nationals. So, to me, that means someone else has intimated that they are willing to go that high. With the Dodgers, Yankees and Cubs all publicly out on Harper I strong believe that team is the White Sox. But the Sox wont sign Harper until the Machado situation is resolved. So here we are in this knot that shows no signs of breaking. You can say this is a lot of conjecture (and you'd be right) but it makes a lot of sense. I dont think anything with either Machado or Harper has changed since early-December when it appears the Yankees, Cubs and Dodgers made it clear they weren't going to be big players.

Isn’t this from the theme song of Beauty & the Beast? Tale as old as time True as it can be Barely even friends Then somebody bends Unexpectedly Just a little change Small to say the least Both a little scared Neither one prepared Beauty and the Beast

I still think they want both and are making moves with that goal still in mind. But if you forced the Sox to chose one I have a very strong feeling Harper is the one they want most.

I couldn't feel more the opposite. They've made one move that I havent hated.

I’m taking all the $1 guys and using the other $22 on a case of beer

You can’t risk blowing up a negotiation because you can’t decide if you need to trade for Joc Pederson. That would be a horrible idea.

They'll finish in 4th place in their division. I wouldn't be too jealous.

Thanks Brett. You are really doing a great service to the baseball community.

If this guy was originally in the Sox system and they gave him away for nothing, you'd have b****ed and moaned. At least be consistent.

It shouldn't be understated how much Harper has been the superior hitter. Harper has a career .900 OPS while Manny has just a single season that high playing his entire career in a hitters park. By wRC+, Harper has been about 17% more productive than Machado over their careers. And the raw hitting talent clearly favors Harper, which shows in his multiple 1.000 OPS seasons. As far as Harper's defense is concerned, he's obviously not generating a ton of value with his glove. But to say unequivocally that he's a bad defensive outfielder is very questionable. His defensive metrics *this past season* were very bad. Prior to this season, quite good! Had consistently been an above average defender in RF. There are some reasons to believe that his poor year defensively may have been driven by something besides his actual talent as some folks have documented a number of plays where he seemingly let up rather than go hard. I don't know if that's injury, an unseemly method of injury prevention, or what, but don't be shocked if Harper goes right back to the average to above average defensive numbers he has long had. My point isn't that Harper is clearly better/going to be better — there's a reason I said it wasn't clear who would be more valuable — but the comparison of these two players isn't "Harper slightly better hitter but Machado is defensive wizard and Harper is basically a DH." Harper has a history of being a solid defensive player and being by far the better hitter. When you start pricing in the risk, you start by acknowledging that any player that you're giving an 8-10 year deal to may lose so much mobility from age or injury that he becomes a 1B or DH. Harper would give much more confidence in terms of providing a bat that's definitely going to play at any position. Both players may get better with the bat, of course, but we've seen just how scary good Harper can be even at younger ages.

Personally I hope the White Sox give these guys a shot to see if they can take a step forward, and if not then we've kept a slot open for Cease or any of the other pitchers in Charlotte if they get off to a good start.

I don't know, I always thought if you had a team that lost 100 games, trying to improve would be implied, not praised. Everyone gets a trophy.

2018.

It is a terrible way to start a relationship and it could encourage him to go elsewhere for less money. This is pretty much the textbook of how the Heat lose DWade to the Bulls (even though the deal was a flop for the Bulls). Playing dirty with players before they even sign isn't a great way to get free agents to come play for you, especially when you aren't the prime franchise.

I'm all for the Padres keeping the Royals connection alive & well in the NL West.

"Let's not attack anyone!" (Everyone proceeds to attack @GREEDY)

When was the last time Coop fixed someone?

SMH, just stop the "poor me" victim BS. I've witnessed you talking negatively about Rabbit 3 times in the last week. Now you're whining about being called names (unintelligent or uninformed) literally the day after you referred to Shack as Hack. You also accused Aaron of making racist remarks when he did no such thing. Just give it a rest already. You don't have a leg to stand on here. If you have a problem with James, Aaron, Brian, Shack, Dave, etc DON'T READ WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY. MUTE THEM. BLOCK THEM. IGNORE THEM. Do whatever. Just stop the I'm a victim crap. You aren't. And before you go and tell me to mute or block you, I won't. I don't believe in blocking or muting people. Thought I'd save you some time.... Time to move on.

Id just drop it. Anyone who wants to feed at the trough of *insider* news is going to keep coming at you. I find the *inside* information has gotten ridiculous and run its course. It doesnt help facilitate discussion, it doesnt create good threads, it creates people begging for a little insight of something that may or may not happen. One thing is pretty clear. once Lozano posted his rant something changed, as there have been almost no leaks.

This is precisely what I'm talking about. I couldn't believe I was being called more names and look at that, it is by another friend of raBBit. You guys win. I'm done.

It’s obvious that someone jumped the gun on Joc going to the Sox. The thing is, it wasn’t wsd or rabbit that jumped the gun. They can only go with what they hear, and I know they try to confirm everything they hear. It’s not hard to see how the Joc deal could have hit a snag, as even Dodgers sources were saying a Pollock trade would mean Joc was being dealt.

I think what you need to understand is things can be true but also not come to fruition. The Sox may very well have been very close on a Pederson deal, and then it falls through. If the deal never occurs does that mean all the info in the run up is bad? No, deals fall through all the time and people like we are talking about give us info from earlier stages than a reporter like rosenthal would.

Fans (not just white sox fans) are tired of people on the internet posing as insiders and taking stabs at breaking sports news. There are tons of people doing this for attention and hoping to start or advance a career. It is mildly infuriating to the general sports internet public. So, if you are an actual insider, and you want to pose as one on the internet, you have to expect people to get cranky when you have attempted to break news and it doesn't come to fruition. Obviously, nothing is guaranteed and an honest good person could get things wrong from time to time, but you have to know that negative reactions will come with the territory. Regular messageboard fans and general little people: DO NOT let these insiders and their friends turn THEM MISSING ON NEWS into "non insider dudes on a message board are upset that we aren't sharing the secret news we have". That is not what happened here. A bunch of guys here eluded to varying degrees of something big going down soon and it didn't come true, and now they have managed to swing the tide from them being wrong into WE are the idiots for maybe even kinda slightly accusing them of being wrong. Somehow it is acceptable to tear Nightengale and Bruuuuce to shreds, calling them every name in the book, but we can't even question "our" guys? I apologize for any intentional or unintentional joking i've done with people's internet handles. Peace.

As long as the Phillies can lockdown Bruce Harper, I am liking our chances of getting Bryce Harper.

And this board, quite frankly, is very awesome. The best discussions, amongst any other forums I follow, are on this one.

Most of us who have contacts, try to use our info in a way that won’t compromise who told us. And remember we are fans too! But when things don’t turn out in the way we are told- posters really make it personal. So what’s the point in trying to share what we may know? Bottom line - the organization still thinks they get him. They have worked hard to do it. They aren’t being cheap or lazy but are squaring off against an agent who needs to make a payday for himself and future business. That is all. Have a great night and trust Hahn.

IMO: 30-33 = early 30s 34-36 = mid 30s 37-39 = late 30

Tail numbers on a private jet from Las Vegas to Philly or it didn’t happen...

The white Sox or Padres signing that deal makes zero sense