Dodgers & Reds trade (Kemp, Puig, & Wood to CIN, Bailey, Josiah Gray & Jeter Downs to LA)

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Hahn's best trade was Eaton #1.  He's gone that route only once since:  Davidson/Reed, which I still think was well intended and worth the risk.  Regardless, 50% leaves you a big winner.  So why did he stop?  Those are the kind of moves this team needs now, 5 years later.  They don't need guys past their prime (like Alonso).
Re the rebuild, he's already whiffed on 1 major pitching prospect and likely a 2nd; none of the others have proven that they are even mid-rotation guys.  There have been no whiffs on the position side yet, but no absolute hits either.  Hopefully we see real progress soon. 

You’ve got Fulmer and Giolito.  Rodon’s value is pretty low, compared to where everyone expected it to be.  Kopech was always going to be extremely high risk.  We don’t know exactly where Dunning and Hansen are physically or psychologically.   Burdi has become an even bigger question mark.

If not for Cease (who still is high-risk due to prior TJ) and Jimenez, it would be almost impossible to justify Hahn still having a job.

The best argument MIGHT be the Robert signing, and that’s at least 18 months from paying off.

Edited December 22, 2018 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

5 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Hahn's best trade was Eaton #1.  He's gone that route only once since:  Davidson/Reed, which I still think was well intended and worth the risk.  Regardless, 50% leaves you a big winner.  So why did he stop?  Those are the kind of moves this team needs now, 5 years later.  They don't need guys past their prime (like Alonso).
Re the rebuild, he's already whiffed on 1 major pitching prospect and likely a 2nd; none of the others have proven that they are even mid-rotation guys.  There have been no whiffs on the position side yet, but no absolute hits either.  Hopefully we see real progress soon. 

What was wrong with the Quintana trade? You don't like Eloy and Cease ?

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Hahn's best trade was Eaton #1.  He's gone that route only once since:  Davidson/Reed, which I still think was well intended and worth the risk.  Regardless, 50% leaves you a big winner.  So why did he stop?  Those are the kind of moves this team needs now, 5 years later.  They don't need guys past their prime (like Alonso).
Re the rebuild, he's already whiffed on 1 major pitching prospect and likely a 2nd; none of the others have proven that they are even mid-rotation guys.  There have been no whiffs on the position side yet, but no absolute hits either.  Hopefully we see real progress soon. 

You can’t honestly think they added Alonso for any other reason but to improve their chances with Machado right?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 minute ago, OmarComing25 said:

Who’s the 2nd pitching prospect whiff you’re talking about?

Guessing Fulmer and Giolito are the 2.

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You can’t honestly think they added Alonso for any other reason but to improve their chances with Machado right?

Wouldn’t it have been somewhat cheaper to add Carlos Beltran to our front office?

 

Edited December 22, 2018 by caulfield12

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

26 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Then wouldn’t it have been smarter to sign Ohtani for pennies on the dollar (of course, that would also mean never having made the deal for Robert)?

He was worth 2.8 fWAR in just 367 plate appearances...not to mention he could serve as a closer as well.

Harper was worth only 3.5 in almost twice as many trips to the plate (697).

Gun to my head - I think Harper will ultimately end up being the more productive player between the two. We've never seen a player of Ohtani's caliber in modern baseball, and I'm actually kind of relieved the Sox didn't land him. I'd much rather let another team take a chance and see what kind of wear and tear a 2-way player will endure. He already blew his elbow out - so that right there would make me worried that he ultimately ends up exclusively as a hitter (and a DH). He's super fun to watch, but I'd rather go after the more expensive option that has a pretty good track record.

Edited December 22, 2018 by CWSpalehoseCWS

[caulfield12]

11 minutes ago, CWSpalehoseCWS said:

Gun to my head - I think Harper will ultimately end up being the more productive player between the two. We've never seen a player of Ohtani's caliber in modern baseball, and I'm actually kind of relieved the Sox didn't land him. I'd much rather let another team take a chance and see what kind of wear and tear a 2-way player will endure. He already blew his elbow out - so that right there would make me worried that he ultimately ends up exclusively as a hitter (and a DH). He's super fun to watch, but I'd rather go after the more expensive option that has a pretty good track record.

Is that really worth $350 million, when you can have TEN Ohtani’s and Luis Robert’s?

Betting on Harper is like picking Apple or Google stock.   For a franchise like the White Sox, they’re better off with ten shots at the next Nvidia or Netflix.

To beat the Harper deal, you only have to be right 2 times out of 10.  If our scouting department can’t manage that, I’m not sure what to say, other than big changes need to be made.

 

If you believe in the baseball gods, I guess there’s a certain irony in our last whale from 20+ years ago in Belle having the Orioles bail Reinsdorf out of that contract.    Machado would be Angelos’ gift in return.

Edited December 22, 2018 by caulfield12

[GreenSox]

13 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Is that really worth $350 million, when you can have TEN Ohtani’s and Luis Robert’s?

Betting on Harper is like picking Apple or Google stock.   For a franchise like the White Sox, they’re better off with ten shots at the next Nvidia or Netflix.

To beat the Harper deal, you only have to be right 2 times out of 10.  If our scouting department can’t manage that, I’m not sure what to say, other than big changes need to be made.

I hear what you are saying, but even if the Sox hit on Robert,  it's only 1/10 he's a Harper. No one gets a Harper 2/10 tries.  As for getting productive major leaguers, yes, they should hit better than 2/10.

And yes, I agree that part of this is to mask and/or energize a rebuild that appears stunted.  Well, so be it.

Edited December 22, 2018 by GreenSox

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

11 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Is that really worth $350 million, when you can have TEN Ohtani’s and Luis Robert’s?

Betting on Harper is like picking Apple or Google stock.   For a franchise like the White Sox, they’re better off with ten shots at the next Nvidia or Netflix.

To beat the Harper deal, you only have to be right 2 times out of 10.  If our scouting department can’t manage that, I’m not sure what to say, other than big changes need to be made.

The Sox have been down that route before and it got them nowhere. Give me the superstar generational talent to put the team on the map and make them relevant. You're making it sound like it's easy to develop a Harper.

Edited December 22, 2018 by CWSpalehoseCWS

[Chicago White Sox]

52 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Wouldn’t it have been somewhat cheaper to add Carlos Beltran to our front office?

 

How in the world is that even remotely as impactful?

[Eminor3rd]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Then wouldn’t it have been smarter to sign Ohtani for pennies on the dollar (of course, that would also mean never having made the deal for Robert)?

He was worth 2.8 fWAR in just 367 plate appearances...not to mention he could serve as a closer as well.

Harper was worth only 3.5 in almost twice as many trips to the plate (697).

I didn’t realize Hahn refused the opportunity to sign Ohtani

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

I didn’t realize Hahn refused the opportunity to sign Ohtani

He didn’t.  But the fact remains until proven otherwise that the best way for the Sox to build winning teams is either drafting that talent or signing Latin Americans, not playing on the free agent market.

You’re simply never going to achieve a justifiable return on investment when you’re paying 10-15% above what the second most desperate team is willing to shell out.

It didn’t get the Mariners anywhere, and the Rangers’ eventual playoff success had nothing to do with A-Rod.

[bmags]

The idea that this is one or the other is a false choice.

[Jerksticks]

8 minutes ago, bmags said:

The idea that this is one or the other is a false choice.

Yes. Never in the history of baseball has a team had this collection of talent.  

[turnin' two]

3 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Then wouldn’t it have been smarter to sign Ohtani for pennies on the dollar (of course, that would also mean never having made the deal for Robert)?

Uuuhhh, how exactly?  Really seems like he wanted a west coast team, and no amount of money makes that happen.  Especially when you can only offer a capped amount that more desirable geographical locations could also offer.  

 

[turnin' two]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

He didn’t.  But the fact remains until proven otherwise that the best way for the Sox to build winning teams is either drafting that talent or signing Latin Americans, not playing on the free agent market.

This doesn't seem like a real fact.

[Rowand44]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Let’s be honest. 

If Kopech, Moncada and Giolito succeeded, we likely wouldn’t even be having this conversation.   The strategy always called for bringing in a “proven winner” Jon Lester type to anchor the rotation, but never a whale.

 

 

I’m gonna go ahead and say this is with out a doubt, 100 percent, the complete opposite of the truth. 

Edited December 22, 2018 by Rowand44

[Eminor3rd]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

He didn’t.  But the fact remains until proven otherwise that the best way for the Sox to build winning teams is either drafting that talent or signing Latin Americans, not playing on the free agent market.

You’re simply never going to achieve a justifiable return on investment when you’re paying 10-15% above what the second most desperate team is willing to shell out.

It didn’t get the Mariners anywhere, and the Rangers’ eventual playoff success had nothing to do with A-Rod.

You (and many others, in the media and otherwise) are getting too caught up in trying to fit the Sox’ tactical decisions into a paradigm. There is value in looking to the past to add context to the present, but the present is unique, so it is foolish to eliminate a course of action simply because it hasn’t played out before. 

For example, you can look to past free agent acquisitions and conclude that it doesn’t make sense to build a winner through free agency, but in no past instance was Manny Machado available. And in no past instance was the White Sox roster in this type of a position. 

If it makes sense to add the guy, then it makes sense to add the guy, even if it truly is the exception to a rule. And it also doesn’t mean the strategy has to shift as a result. Sometimes exceptional circumstances present themselves, and a shrewd operator looks for ways to take advantage. 

[default]

3 hours ago, turnin' two said:

This doesn't seem like a real fact.

That’s because it’s actually conjecture. Classsic internet message board mistake.

Edited December 22, 2018 by default

[heirdog]

Let’s stop the gloom and doom on this thread.  The White Sox have the inside track on Machado.  He will sign with the Sox unless the Phillies do something stupid.  Harper is a long shot but who knows?!?

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, heirdog said:

Let’s stop the gloom and doom on this thread.  The White Sox have the inside track on Machado.  He will sign with the Sox unless the Phillies do something stupid.  Harper is a long shot but who knows?!?

Frankly, we can say they HAVE to sign him, but the Phillies are in the exact same position, except they’re 100% in win now mode and desperate to get back into contention.  They also have a huge t.v. deal, so the money’s definitely there to spend.

It would be nice, of course, not to go through this wringer two years in a row.  The odds will be even more difficult next year, and nobody gets as excited about pitching as position players, especially ones in the prime of their career.   We could sign Sale or Bumgarner, and there would be just as much concern as excitement.  That’s the volatile nature of getting too attached to pitcher’s names.

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/mlb/reds/2018/12/22/reds-dodgers-blockbuster-trade-players-react/2396188002/

Edited December 22, 2018 by caulfield12

[Harry Chappas]

We are not outbidding sf or Boston for players they control.

[Balta1701]

18 hours ago, raBBit said:

You might want do a refresher on the rules if you're going to speak so matter of factually on this. People might parrot your thoughts on the rules thinking they're accurate but they're not. 

Still waitin'. 

[Bigsoxhurt35]

7 hours ago, heirdog said:

Let’s stop the gloom and doom on this thread.  The White Sox have the inside track on Machado.  He will sign with the Sox unless the Phillies do something stupid.  Harper is a long shot but who knows?!?

Where did you hear or read this?

[Lip Man 1]

According to a story on MLB.com they are now turning their attention to getting Kluber.