A Tale of Two Cities . . . MLB Expansion.

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I do. It would be negligent if the owner didn't do everything possible to help the franchise. The more debt they run the less they can put towards the franchise. 

So basically, you're on the side of the A's owner?

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So basically, you're on the side of the A's owner?

Yes. He should try to leverage his position to help his team as much as possible. That's his job. If MLB let's him move (which is really what they wanted) and Oakland didn't want to concede ti the ridiculous demands (and they shouldn't) then let them go. 

This is the way it has always been in baseball. Just look at the A's themselves. They've been in Kansas City, Philadelphia, Oakland and now Vegas. 

Many people are pushing for the antitrust exemption to be repealed/revoked. This is what the result would be. If the politicians really want to give them the money, it's in them. 

This wouldn't happen if the MLB didn't really want a team in Vegas. They want to go exploit new revenue markets. The Bay area still has the Giants. 

[Bob Sacamano]

I feel like either Texas or another team further west is the call. And then of course Nashville.

[Texsox]

Montreal by the numbers. I don't believe it is ludicrous to suggest that two decades of under league average attendance is failing. Twenty consecutive years of below league average attendance. If that's success then wow those are low standards. 

https://exposnation.com/en/montreal-expos-attendance-per-year/

 

[MEANS]

Portland has a pretty decent group pushing for expansion. https://portlanddiamondproject.com/ even my less favorite Muppet is involved (R. Wilson)

 

The Hillsboro Hops are not far from Portland for minor league baseball either. Farm team for the Diamondbacks.

[Tnetennba]

3 hours ago, SCCWS said:

Now a days Toronto is the " sports city" in Canada, not Montreal. Last year there was a push to split games with Tampa and Montreal because of weather.  Tampa, new stadium or not, will draw for a few years and then it will be right back to 15,000 or less. Imagine attendance if the Rays ever have a lousy team? 

While true, I'd imagine there are still some Expos faithful around. MLB returning to Montreal would have to opportunity to create new fans as well. Not that I believe Manfred would ever do something good for the fans.

[reiks12]

11 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

This.

What would make most sense to accommodate greed, but will still never happen, is have Major League Baseball (16 team league) and Kiddie Table League Baseball (16 team league). Or they can whore themselves out further with league sponsors (Bud Light & WalMart for the Kiddie Leagues).

Promote the two best Little League Teams and demote the bottom two MLB teams in each of the two leagues (4 teams change each season). Would make September games meaningful throughout the league, win and stay in, lose get demoted.

The initial alignment would be based on the previous year standings, with Expansion Teams starting in the Little Leagues. MLB will have a World Series, Little League Baseball will have one as well. Using 2024 as the initial year, this would be the breakout:

MLB American League: Baltimore (101); Houston (90); Minnesota (87); New York (82); Seattle (88); Tampa Bay (99); Texas (90); Toronto (89)

MLB National League: Arizona (84); Atlanta (104); Chicago (83); Los Angeles (100); Miami (84); Milwaukee (92); Philadelphia (90) + Winner (Cincinnati vs. San Diego Tie Breaker Series).

American Kiddie Table League: Boston (78); Chicago (61); Cleveland (76); Detroit (78); Kansas City (56); Los Angeles (73); Nashville (Expansion); Oakland (50)

National Kiddie Table League: Colorado; (59) New York (75), Montreal (Expansion); Pittsburgh (76); Saint Louis (71); San Francisco (79); Washington (71) + Loser (Cincinnati vs. San Diego Tie Breaker Series)

I do like how in soccer they demote teams if they suck hard enough, even if that means our shitty org would be in AAA purgatory 

[South Side Hit Men]

5 hours ago, hi8is said:

Are you fucking kidding me?

1. MLB owners already staged a sixteen team playoff during their fake lockout season, and wanted 14 teams during the last CBA. They have been talking about team and playoff expansion for years, and it’s not for shits and giggles.

2. They have also discussed conference style / geographic alignment for years. Started the process with the absolute garbage interleague and “crosstown” drunk brawl puke series.

Both of the above are certain, it’s just a matter of when.

3. Seven inning games is a bigger lift, but once again MLB already implemented this for DH, they are obsessed at driving games into the 120-150 minute range.

I threw in home run derby extra innings for fun, but the Manfred Man rule has also been established, which is a similar abomination.

As always, hear me now and believe me later.

4 hours ago, RibbieRubarb said:

I would put Houston back to the NL South and Nashville into the AL South.

Keep Texas Separate...😄

My Division alignments were based on what would likely pass / be feasible to owners. In some ways, geographic realignment makes sense. If it were up to me, there would be four eight team divisions and no wild cards or inter league, and Houston and Milwaukee would return to their original leagues, which would make you happy

Miami and Tampa really shouldn’t have teams due to lack of interest, and need all the help they can get in terms of fan interest.

The Royals get no benefit playing in the AL Central in terms of fan interest, so a change to get the Cardinals and Cubs should help at the box office. Colorado would benefit by shifting to low market / low quality opponents (A’s, Mariners, Angels)

This would be my realignment if I could wave a wand.

Schedule 162 Games (Division 14 X 7 = 98 + Opposite Division 8 X 8 = 64)

Playoffs League Championship Series (Best of Seven - Starts First Wednesday in October)

Interleague All Star Game & World Series (Best of Seven - Starts Third Tuesday in October)

American League 

East: Baltimore, Boston, Cleveland, Detroit, Nashville, New York, Tampa Bay, Toronto

West: Chicago, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, Minnesota, Seattle, Texas

National League

East: Atlanta, Cincinnati, Miami, Montreal, New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Washington

West: Arizona, Chicago, Colorado, Houston, Los Angeles, Saint Louis, San Diego, San Francisco

[ptatc]

21 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

1. MLB owners already staged a sixteen team playoff during their fake lockout season, and wanted 14 teams during the last CBA. They have been talking about team and playoff expansion for years, and it’s not for shits and giggles.

2. They have also discussed conference style / geographic alignment for years. Started the process with the absolute garbage interleague and “crosstown” drunk brawl puke series.

Both of the above are certain, it’s just a matter of when.

3. Seven inning games is a bigger lift, but once again MLB already implemented this for DH, they are obsessed at driving games into the 120-150 minute range.

I threw in home run derby extra innings for fun, but the Manfred Man rule has also been established, which is a similar abomination.

As always, hear me now and believe me later.

My Division alignments were based on what would likely pass / be feasible to owners. In some ways, geographic realignment makes sense. If it were up to me, there would be four eight team divisions and no wild cards or inter league, and Houston and Milwaukee would return to their original leagues, which would make you happy

Miami and Tampa really shouldn’t have teams due to lack of interest, and need all the help they can get in terms of fan interest.

The Royals get no benefit playing in the AL Central in terms of fan interest, so a change to get the Cardinals and Cubs should help at the box office. Colorado would benefit by shifting to low market / low quality opponents (A’s, Mariners, Angels)

This would be my realignment if I could wave a wand.

Schedule 162 Games (Division 14 X 7 = 98 + Opposite Division 8 X 8 = 64)

Playoffs League Championship Series (Best of Seven - Starts First Wednesday in October)

Interleague All Star Game & World Series (Best of Seven - Starts Third Tuesday in October)

American League 

East: Baltimore, Boston, Cleveland, Detroit, Nashville, New York, Tampa Bay, Toronto

West: Chicago, Kansas City, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Milwaukee, Minnesota, Seattle, Texas

National League

East: Atlanta, Cincinnati, Miami, Montreal, New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Washington

West: Arizona, Chicago, Colorado, Houston, Los Angeles, Saint Louis, San Diego, San Francisco

With the advent of interleague play and the balanced schedule, they are slowly moving towards making divisions irrelevant. 

Just go back to the top 7 or 8 teams in each league making the playoffs regardless of division. Jist depends on how many byes you want for the first round. 

[South Side Hit Men]

3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

With the advent of interleague play and the balanced schedule, they are slowly moving towards making divisions irrelevant. 

Just go back to the top 7 or 8 teams in each league making the playoffs regardless of division. Jist depends on how many byes you want for the first round. 

TexSox won’t be happy until there is a 32 team playoff.

The 162 game season is pretty much an exhibition game season if every team slightly above, possibly below .500, makes a playoffs as is the case now.

We gave up our Hawks season tickets after they switched from a division playoff format to this NBA Style Conference nonsense that will likely occur. There were great division rivalries when you literally fought your way out of the division against the same hated teams and players.

Once MLB went beyond 8 Playoff teams, my playoff interest went from mild post 1994 expansion to non existent. I wouldn’t bother getting Sox playoff tickets to all the home games like I did in 1983 and 2005. It’s just a money grab at this point, not a contest of the elite teams in baseball.

[ptatc]

11 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

TexSox won’t be happy until there is a 32 team playoff.

The 162 game season is pretty much an exhibition game season if every team slightly above, possibly below .500, makes a playoffs as is the case now.

We gave up our Hawks season tickets after they switched from a division playoff format to this NBA Style Conference nonsense that will likely occur. There were great division rivalries when you literally fought your way out of the division against the same hated teams and players.

Once MLB went beyond 8 Playoff teams, my playoff interest went from mild post 1994 expansion to non existent. I wouldn’t bother getting Sox playoff tickets to all the home games like I did in 1983 and 2005. It’s just a money grab at this point, not a contest of the elite teams in baseball.

That's fine. I just enjoy the game. The extended playoffs keep more teams and fans interested deeper into the season. 

The playoff games in 2000 and 2005 were fun environments. 

[chetkincaid]

13 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

This statement is ludicrous. Jerry Reinsdorf and Bud Selig killed the Expos in 1994 and Jeff Loria defiled the corpse a few years later. John Fisher inherited the Gap from his mommy and daddy, demanded a new taxpayer funded real estate empire because entitlement / privilege. He overplayed his hand and will end up making far less than he would have staying in the Bay Area, as he gets zero real estate at the Tropicana site vs. the Wild Wild West site blocked by Nevada Unions.

What Should Have Happened:

• The Rays build a stadium in Tampa or Montreal, not a second one in Saint Petersburg.
• The A's build a stadium at the Howard Terminal or Oakland.
• Expansion to Nashville and Montreal

Restore League and Playoff Integrity: 

Interleague Eliminated, All Playoffs Best of Seven, Four Division Winners in the ALDS.

1. Realigns divisions in a better geographical and time zone alignment.
2. Minimizes historical rivalries / league alignment by limiting shifting teams to recent expansion clubs (Colorado, Miami), with Kansas City ownership and fans likely supporting the switch (and they have been American League since 1955. Milwaukee in the AL North and Minnesota in the NL North probably makes more sense, but Milwaukee will squeal like a pig losing Cubbie fan tickets revenue.

American League 

• East: 3 Baltimore, 5 Boston, 10 New York, 6 Toronto
• North: 5 Chicago, 2 Cleveland, 4 Detroit, 4 Minnesota
• South: 7 Houston, 6 Miami, 3 Tampa Bay, 8 Texas
• West: 3 Colorado, 2 Las Vegas, 6 Los Angeles, 4 Seattle

National League

• East: 4 Montreal, 10 New York, 6 Philadelphia, 6 Washington
• North: 5 Chicago, 2 Kansas City, 2 Milwaukee, 3 Saint Louis
• South: 6 Atlanta, 2 Cincinnati, 2 Nashville, 2 Pittsburgh
• West: 5 Arizona, 6 Los Angeles, 3 San Diego, 5 San Francisco

# = MSA Population in Millions (Split Markets are divided by two for this exercise)

 

What will likely happen:

• NBA Style East / West Conferences - Obliterate Historical 125 - 150 year League Alignments
• 16-24 Playoff Teams Including Play In Games
• Make Games Seven Innings & Replace Extra Innings With Home Run Derby - Limited to Regular Season at First, Followed by Playoff Expansion.

Best of 7 series should only be for league championships and World Series. I’m fine with best of 3 in the opening round. That’s what’s wrong with the NBA… too many damn teams and too many damn playoff games. It makes the regular season worthless. 

[ThirdGen]

Let's quit talking about Oakland getting an expansion team as if they got screwed by the move.  Of the 56 years they played in Oakland they were in the top half of AL attendance only 11 times. And most of the other 45 years they weren't even close. 25 of those years they were in the bottom 3. They won 3 consecutive World Series, one of the greatest teams in history in the early 70's.  The year they won the third WS they were 11 out of 12 AL teams in attendance. Say what you will about John Fisher, the problem existed long before he arrived. Its kind of a miracle they have lasted as long as they have.

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, ThirdGen said:

Let's quit talking about Oakland getting an expansion team as if they got screwed by the move.  Of the 56 years they played in Oakland they were in the top half of AL attendance only 11 times. And most of the other 45 years they weren't even close. 25 of those years they were in the bottom 3. They won 3 consecutive World Series, one of the greatest teams in history in the early 70's.  The year they won the third WS they were 11 out of 12 AL teams in attendance. Say what you will about John Fisher, the problem existed long before he arrived. Its kind of a miracle they have lasted as long as they have.

Yeah, the bottom line is if they were making money whether it be from attendance or sponsorship , they wouldnt move. 

[Texsox]

5 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

So basically, you're on the side of the A's owner?

I don't think it's about sides at all. 

Isn't the alternative for the government to be forcing the business to stay open in their city? No, you can't move. How would they even enforce that? Arrest the owners? If it's a publicly traded company arrest the board? Eminent domain? Marshall law. 

It seems like the only way to force them to stay is through a lease agreement. The government has to give something in return. 

Plus we're they wrong to leave Philadelphia? Kansas City? Oakland? I have a hard time crying for Oakland when they made a deal to get the team to leave another city to come to Oakland in the first place. 

[Texsox]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

TexSox won’t be happy until there is a 32 team playoff.

The 162 game season is pretty much an exhibition game season if every team slightly above, possibly below .500, makes a playoffs as is the case now.

We gave up our Hawks season tickets after they switched from a division playoff format to this NBA Style Conference nonsense that will likely occur. There were great division rivalries when you literally fought your way out of the division against the same hated teams and players.

Once MLB went beyond 8 Playoff teams, my playoff interest went from mild post 1994 expansion to non existent. I wouldn’t bother getting Sox playoff tickets to all the home games like I did in 1983 and 2005. It’s just a money grab at this point, not a contest of the elite teams in baseball.

That's the difference . . . I'm happy in the interim as well. You'll never be happy. You will just be unhappier and unhappier until you just stop watching. Designated hitter. The 162 game season totally watered down the 154 season. Interleague play. Games on TV. Streaming. Apple TV. I'm excited about the future you write 500 word essays wishing for the good old days . . . 

 

[chitownsportsfan]

Vegas. Can almost guarantee Vegas will be one. As for the other I think it will be somewhere in the south east. Either Charlotte or Nashville.

[Bob Sacamano]

3 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Vegas. Can almost guarantee Vegas will be one. As for the other I think it will be somewhere in the south east. Either Charlotte or Nashville.

Vegas is getting a second team as an expansion team along with the A's?

Edited December 19, 2023 by Bob Sacamano

[chitownsportsfan]

1 minute ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Vegas is getting a second team as an expansion team along with the A's?

I don't fucking know. They already got plans? I was just doing a drive by post but cynically I'd expect Vegas, it's where all the leagues want to be I guess.

[T R U]

36 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I don't fucking know. They already got plans? I was just doing a drive by post but cynically I'd expect Vegas, it's where all the leagues want to be I guess.

The A's are already moving to Vegas do you live under a rock?????

[chitownsportsfan]

23 minutes ago, T R U said:

The A's are already moving to Vegas do you live under a rock?????

I think I just figured they contracted the As and would start fresh with a new brand in Vegas.

[Sleepy Harold]

18 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Salt Lake had a long AAA tradition...then changed to A ball.

 

The Salt Lake Bees are still in AAA. 

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, Sleepy Harold said:

The Salt Lake Bees are still in AAA. 

This was back in the 90s.

Still don't see SLC being a Top 2-3 choice with Denver in that region.

[Tnetennba]

The Jazz or a AAA team surviving in Utah is one thing, but 81 home games in a tiny media market is a stretch IMO. Denver is 3 times the size of SLC and the Rockies are rarely ever relevant. Good luck ever courting a star FA to Salt Lake City.

[Texsox]

53 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I think I just figured they contracted the As and would start fresh with a new brand in Vegas.

Nice recovery.