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Look, we have 477 posts of your posts of this circular logic. Here's the deal. -The White Sox have two real assets left in Cease and Robert. Luis probably isn't going anywhere for a year, maybe two. Dylan is the only one that is starting to get into the zone. -The White Sox did this exact same thing with Jose Quintana and it paid off in spades in terms of prospect returns. One of the return you may have heard of? -This is the White Sox chance at a home run, and being able get the absolute best deal possible is the key, not when it happens. The Sox don't care about 2024 or 25, at least, no matter what the idiots reporting quotes without follow up questions say. Their actions speak louder than anything. -You keep telling us how much greater the O's system is than anywhere else, but if you skim the cream off of the top, which you seem to think is somewhere between their top 3 or 4 prospects, that greatness doesn't matter. It opens the door for other teams to be able to step in front of any offer. Those "offers" become extremely beatable. -Sure there is risk to the White Sox with Cease, but with Baltimore standing on their own dicks this winter and watching the world go by them, there is just as much risk to Baltimore losing out on a Cease and seeing regression of players they are relying on. If the Sox of 2020-21 taught us anything is that assuming an upward trajectory for literally everyone is pushing all in on a risky bet. That bet gets more dangerous if another AL East team pushes in front of Baltimore and he goes to a competitor. -You keep telling us how Elias sets his price and that is it, and that's cool. But it just means that that also leaves the door open for a more daring GM to take the player away from them. -You can't tell someone they have zero idea that the offers are poor as a criticism and then immediately say that the Sox are asking too much, when you also have no idea what Getz has exactly asked for, and what other offers look like to see how outrageous that is. If you look at historic deals and at what the cost of pitching is these days, outrageous deals of 5 years ago may well be the new norm for cost controlled pitching. Otherwise pay a guy like Snell on the open market, right? Oh wait, they won't. -At the end of the day, Baltimore's window is already going to be narrow. They have small market mentality ownership and leadership. With every door they close to talent acquisition, it makes the eye of the needle they have to thread to stick around the playoff hunt even narrower. Every time someone around them adds on, it narrows it again.

I love to be positive when the situation warrants it but a SP rotation and BP of cast offs , a bunch or guys who can't hit a lick doesnt inspire a lot of confidence. 90, 100 ,110 ,we're just splitting hairs about the variances of losses. What level of bad we reach this year's is inconsequential when the purge of the roster will continue next year. When Robert get traded I don't know but it will happen. Maybe when it does the Sox will have some players develop to give the Sox some actual talent and a better record. If JR is still around maybe he spends money. What we do know is that it's never enough and that big changes in scouting and player development has to happen to compete in this day and age. I have a really good idea about how bad the team was last year I just have trouble seeing the light at the end of the tunnel for a few years.

For whatever hits and misses I've had on here, Tim being an asshole was my biggest hit. I was banging the drum on here that he was a cancer and needed to go during his peak years. There are several reasons no one is touching him. Someone will for at a discount, and that discount will still be too high.

The international signing period opens on Monday. I wrote a preview for FutureSox here: https://www.futuresox.net/2024/01/11/2024-white-sox-international-signing/

If Sports Guy wasn't so unlikable, I'd feel bad for O's fans.

Fantastic post! He's amassed 463 and counting posts in this thread as an O's fan, but won't respond to this one!

Nobody in a million years would have thought Adam Eaton would net Giolito, Lopez AND Dunning based off of one really successful season accompanied with a position change to RF from center and massive jump in assists. What would that equivalent be from the Orioles’ system today? It only takes ONE GM out of 28 to crack. One. And Getz has a lot more job security than virtually EVERY GM in baseball due to JR.

I think there is a solid chance the Sox just want to move on from TA. But at like 1/$7-9M, he at least provides some upside.

You guys wanted a first baseman for Cease?

So question for the group that people probably won’t like: what type of package is doable with Jordan Westburg as the “headliner” from Baltimore? Heyman mentioned that the Sox wanted him and I think he’s too good to be a secondary piece, personally. I wonder if something like Westburg, Beavers, Wagner and McDermott is enough? McDermott and Beavers could easily be T100 types this year. I’m just not sure. If Getz is asking for Westburg plus one of Cowser/Kjerstad/Mayo though, I just feel like that never gets done.

First of all, “made hires from outside the organization” is an interesting way to gloss over the fact that they brought in the entire 2018 KC Royals staff. And team. And kept the same flop of a manager. So if no derision is allowed about that, then we are gonna have a problem. But more than that, you complain about not being met with complete derision for being positive, but the best versions of this we get were “oh Graveman sucked last year” (he didn’t) and “thank God Grandal is gone we have to be better now (our new catcher was worse). It sure sounds like you’re insisting that you need to be able to be positive without anyone questioning it and without having to make any sort of intelligent justification. We all just need to cheer louder! Frankly, the page was largely like that a year ago, those who said they were a shitty team were the ones shouted down. But, we also brought better takes than this weak stuff. So this can definitely change. If you’re not willing to justify your position, then don’t make one.

Let's not forget the most expensive bullpen in baseball that was a complete disaster. I feel we have improved greatly by the removal of about 6 or 7 total bombs.

Fwiw, yes, this is exactly how the Quintana deal went. I was starting to worry during the year because he started off the year poorly, even though some of his advanced stats were still good, then a huge offer came around in early July.

Why doesn’t this apply to Ortiz then, as all I see on your board is how valuable he is, as illustrated by his ranking? I totally agree that rankings don’t mean anything, as I previously said every GM in baseball would take Schultz over Ortiz.

I’ll save everyone the time and let you know that he was never on the Royals.

well, Tim did say “I kind of feel like today’s Jackie Robinson. That’s huge to say. But it’s cool, man, because he changed the game, and I feel like I’m getting to a point to where I need to change the game.” which is hilariously naïve and deserving of mockery, he's nothing like Jackie Robinson. so it doesn't surprise that a s%*#-starter like Donaldson would be the one to say it but people were acting like he burned a cross on TA's front lawn.

I don't think you should be prompted within that same shitty organization. How do you change a shitty organization? I don't think it's by promoting from within. Who did he learn from? What examples does he have to draw on? Successful organizations can promote from within, shitty (your description) need outside help. His career path should have been a lateral move to a better organization. Just my opinion.

Getz didn't create any of this. If anyone on this site was given the GM job he would ask to be judged on his performance. I try to give Getz the patience & respect I would want for myself.

----------------+-------+---+-------------+----------+---------- I'll agree there are some positive in the last two years. I'll even agree for our long term mental health we should probably acknowledge them. But it's impossible to ignore what a huge disappointment the past two seasons have been. Whether by team choice (possibly) or career preservation (more likely in my mind) rising stars in good organizations aren't filling these open positions. Yes, we're getting what we asked in people leaving but we also wanted above average replacements. We're asked as a fan base to believe these new folks are capable of delivering a winning product. Like most everyone here I'm skeptical they have the skills to do that while also really hoping to be proven wrong. Words just aren't enough anymore to get me excited and positive, the team has to show me. That won't happen for months.

I'm with WestEddy; I at least see positive signs to watch/root for. If they keep Cease and sign a respectable RF then I'm not laying any cash down on it but who knows in a bad division. Eloy/Yoan know they are playing for their next payday so feel good that we will see their most motivated performances in some time. Otherwise have hope that Bannister can produce some useful pitching assets for the deadline out of all the projects he's inherited and then watch some of the young kids come up at the end of the year.

It took me forever to find it. Still can't find a thing about his supposed hissy fit about quitting because of something something on Instagram about maybe not getting promoted fast enough ? Google search has to be worded just the right way to come up with stories that surfaced for a brief moment then are forgotten. I tried a lot of different combination of words.

This thread has become a metaphor for the Sox in that you never quite know when you've hit the bottom.

Oh, I know that. I actually do read through everyone's replies, because even the people I'm complaining about have really interesting things to say. It's just that the 11th comment that "Getz wasn't qualified for this position", or having it explained to me that nothing will change until Jerry Reinsdorf dies, and one of the many altruistic billionaires on the planet will buy the team and nurture their relationship as fans, and be nice to everybody, and spend all of their money on baseball players, and only then will the White Sox win every pennant going forward - gets old.

The team just fired a bunch of people that everybody has been screaming to be fired. They brought in a new pitching coordinator who has had success in another organization. They have made hires to the front office from outside the organization, which is what everybody has been screaming for. The GM has laid out a pretty clear plan for this off-season, and his moves sure look like they reflect that plan. The moves they're making aren't flashy. You have to squint to see the upside. It sure seems like they hired Bannister, and now they're picking up low-cost, fixer-upper dudes that can eat innings. Outside of Cease, Kopech and maybe Soroka, I don't expect them to be flipping any of these guys. If you think they're going to go trade for Manny Machado and sign Ohtani, then get angry when they don't, I don't know how to help you. I don't expect anybody to be all happy, shiny people about the White Sox. The constant bytch-fest isn't much more exciting than Oriole fans making the exact same wrong argument over and over and over. Do what you want, and I'm not demanding that people get more positive, it's just silly when being slightly positive gets one roundly accused of being a liar and a fool.

Well, he is a statue already on the field

My sports teams don't effect my mood to be honest. Not since I was in my late-teens/early twenties when it seemed more important that it actually is.

Suddenly I have a feeling that they'll all forget how to play defense.

Yeah, he was actually good. It’s too bad the trade return for him looks so bad now. They couldn’t even trust Korey Lee to be a backup catcher apparently.

The only thing I can confidently say that the 2024 team will be better at than the 2023 team is the defense. Those are going to be some clean played 10-1 losses this year. It's better than throwing and kicking the ball over the field at least.

Sure, they’ll be better. They’ll lose 90 games instead of 101. 11 win improvement! ?

James Paxton would be such a letdown for any team going for it lol He probably injured himself since the time that video was posted.

Last year at this time, people on here would have said hell no to trading Colas.

The thing is with these Orioles prospects, at some point, either fans of the Orioles or fans of the White Sox, wherever they may play, are going to think they suck. Look at all the prospects the Sox got for their 3 guys, Moncada, Kopech, suck. Eloy sucks. Cease used to suck. Gio used to suck, then sucked again. Lopez sucked usually, Dunning got traded for a guy who eventually sucked.

Colas has a cannon for an arm also. He threw out a runner at home that was 100.9 MPH which I think was the highest in MLB last year. So this post is going to try to fill you in on as much as I can gather about Colas but it isn't easy since I don't speak Spanish and a lot of things about him are hard to find on the internet as strange as that seems. But there is a lot of strangeness in the whole Colas saga. However lets try to look at everything about him as objectively as we can while keeping in mind there is a lot as fans that we don't know about him that the coaching staff does. This is what I know. The Sox hyped him to the fan base as the opening day RF for 2023. At that time we as fans ( me especially) bought into the hype. We barely heard anything about how bad his defense was. Now the hype train is in reverse. Now we are hearing his fundamentals suck in all aspects of his game, base running, plate discipline, focus ,hitting the cutoff man from Grifol and Getz and according to Grifol he thought it was very important for him to play winter ball. Now it was Hahn mostly doing the hype train full steam ahead. But we also have to remember that Getz was in charge of preparing minor leaguers. Getz was the guy who did Project Birmingham. They did a whole series of videos on Project Birmingham and one of those videos featured Oscar Colas. I went back and watched it . Doug Sisson (Minor League Field coordinator) talked about how much time Colas and missed and also said that from talking to Colas that Colas said he was mostly a 1st base/pitcher who didnt play much in Japan. So we know he missed a lot of development time and wasn't really a RF. We also know that in preparing for the 2023 season Colas went to Miami along with Robert and Romy Gonzalez to work on mostly his hitting ( guessing this) and plate discipline with some of the Sox coaches ,Tosar and I can't remember if any other coach was involved there. So what have we seen? The Sox had all of 2022 to assess Colas fundamentals and focus on making their best hitting prospect better in all his red flag areas that Grifol is so fond of pointing out. You would have to think they were aware of these things, unless you want to chalk it up to how poor the Sox are at development, yet they still stuck him out in RF Opening Day 2023 and thought his hitting could make an impact and that his arm could make up for his lack of fundamentals in the field. Grifol also made it very clear that he thought Colas had to play winter ball which Colas decided not to do. What is not well known is that Colas' wife was in her last trimester of her pregnancy and Colas decided he'd rather be with his wife for the birth of his son. Now despite how bad Colas was in the field it's not easy to ascertain just how bad he was due to how you view defensive metrics. He certainly had his share of errors (6) which I think led all RF's. I was watching a CHGO podcast about Colas and they put up a graphic with all the Sox outfielders showing runs prevented. I have no ideas what actual defensive stat they used to determine this (wasn't DRS) . But they had the Runs Prevented for both Colas and Sheets at 0. Robert was 11 and Benintendi was at -10. DRS had Colas -4, Sheets -5 Benintendi -3 and Robert 6. OAA (Statcast Outs Above Average) and RAA (Statcast Runs Against Average) found on Fangraphs under Advanced Fielding on the players individual page are very similar and those numbers ALMOST what it seems like what CHGO was using . I say almost because most of the numbers from OAA and RAA reflect the numbers CHGO used except Sheets was a -2 in both OAA and RAA while CHGO had him at 0. Benintendi's OAA was -10 but his RAA was -9 so CHGO used his OAA. Robert's OAA was 13 and his RAA 11 so CHGO used his RAA. Colas was 0 in both OAA and RAA so no matter which one CHGO used they got it right. So there are minor discrepancies from the Runs Prevented graph that CHGO used . That's the best I could come up with. As far as his hitting goes why he was so bad is anyones best guess. The Sox DFA'd Remillard and Carlos Perez and those 2 guys actually hit better than Colas. How is that even possible? Obviously Remillard and and Perez were better at plate discipline and contact and both had way more experience facing AAA pitching but are those the only reasons ? Despite missing so much time he hit very well in A+ and better in AA and in the small sample size at AA the numbers were good. His approach against LHP was impressive in AA. He hit .362 with a .569 Slg. % against LHH in his 51 games using all fields. Most of his power came against RHP . You can seriously ask the question did his preparation in Miami prior to ST actually make him worse trying to implement what he learned or did he not apply what they were trying to teach him ? The message to Colas is clear. Work on your plate discipline and fundamentals. His performance in both seems to warrant a strong message but we don't know what else is in play here. Grifol and Colas said there was a certain amount of anxiety with Colas and Grifol wanted him to "dial down the intensity level". What we clearly don't know is how they perceived him in view of the Culture problem in the dugout. Olivia Finestead the mother of one of Mike Clevinger's children and his main accuser of domestic violent against him posted two stories involving Clevinger's teammate Oscar Colas . She captioned the first 'Meanwhile ...' showcasing Colas liking a litany of her photos. She then took a screenshot of Colas's profile, urging Clevinger to usher his colleague away. 'Mike get your teammate off my page,' she captioned the story. Make of that what you will. A lot of beautiful women get a lot of likes from many men on social media. But you do have to question Colas' judgment in doing this knowing he is a professional athlete open to high levels of scrutinization. There was also some level of frustation that Colas expressed about something around mid season. What he was frustrated with is very hard to pin down. If someone wants to take a crack at it and can provide a link, it would be appreciated. Some articles I referenced. https://www.sportsmockery.com/chicago-white-sox/grifol-and-getz-call-out-oscar-colas-for-lack-of-fundamentals/ https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/mlb/article-11977643/White-Soxs-Mike-Clevinger-avoids-awkward-question-Kanye-Wests-Gold-Digger-walk-song.html https://www.southsidesox.com/2023/9/15/23874158/chicago-white-sox-oscar-colas-no-mas-alas The last article I didn't read until after I finished writing the above but had to chuckle at the writer saying this "Or maybe he did learn. Maybe — and this is an added scare to an already scary situation — maybe the White Sox player development is so incredibly horrible that it defundamentalizes, making players unlearn what they already know, to get worse." which is a very speculative question I asked above.

SS2k5 reading this thread

Also, FWIW, I’ve flip flopped and want the Sox to hold on to Cease if the offers aren’t awesome. This team needs a miracle to improve the talent level, so Cease pitching like his amazing run during 2022 leading up to the 24 deadline might be the best way to acquire impact talent.

Couldn’t two things be possible — either Getz is asking for too much or other teams aren’t offering enough? I mean, the Yankees supposedly wouldn’t even include Spencer Jones (#73 overall) in a trade for Cease, when they already have Jasson Dominguez. Is Jones really too high of an ask as the frontlining prospect in a trade for Cease? I don’t think so.

You said you believe the general rule of thumb is that pitching fetches more at the deadline. How is it likely that Cease is the exception to this rule?

If he's available for under $10M, I'd sign him to play 2B.

Yeah, I had Orioles tunnel vision there and thought you were assuming they specifically would be coasting to first place by the trade deadline. I forgot the list of suitors can/will look much different come July. I need more coffee.

I'll take the over. If TA is under $5M, Sox should sign him and just move him around the diamond.

While he would have slightly less service time than right now, historic evidence (meaning last year) also shows that it is possible for the market for starting pitching at the trade deadline to go quite out-of-whack, with way more demand than supply. Last year's deadline is a perfect example, and take a look at the White Sox. Lance Lynn was leading the league in HR given up, had 2 months of control, and was owed like $7 million for those 2 months. The Dodgers gave up their 8th best prospect for him, and took on Joe Kelly as a gamble because why not. Giolito was being inconsistent, slightly better than 2022 but you could still see the issues if you did some scouting, Lopez was generally bad to open the year in the bullpen, but the Angels gave up a top 100 prospect for him and Lopez. The Mets gave up Verlander and Scherzer and got back guys who are now their top 2 prospects, + more. Yes, they had to send along some money with them, but both were having injury issues and teams just took chances on them. If Cease struggles like he did last year, then the odds are his value isn't lower at the deadline than it is right now. He is still a strikeout pitcher with high level stuff. Teams will take a chance on the ability to fix him, figuring that the White Sox's pitching coach is trash.They might not give up the asking price right now, but his value won't go down just because of the lower service time. Cease's stuff last year was iffy, he put up an ERA of 8 in August, but was pretty good in September. There have been hints that there were mechanical issues last year, so it is possible that this is fixable also. The White Sox should have changed pitching coaches, but too late for that, so we hope for the best. If Cease is just normal next year, slightly better than his truly weak 2023, then he will go into the deadline with an ERA in the mid 3's, with 1.5 years of control, a high K rate (teams like this for the playoffs) and a salary affordable to everyone. That might well be the most valuable player to move at the deadline. The only real downside risk is injury. While this is a real concern, Dylan Cease is also a guy you might gamble on. He has been the most reliable starter in baseball starting in 2021. Maybe that just means the injury is coming, but if you're going to gamble on a guy being healthy, better to bet on Cease than on a guy like Kopech who has been a mess of injuries the last 3 years. This was all pretty obvious at the start of the offseason. Cease struggled last year, the struggles were real, and this would likely matter to teams. Plus, compared to the deadline last year, there was a lot more pitching available for teams to spend FA dollars on, so the market was much less constrained at the deadline. The White Sox didn't need to be in a rush to move him, they could hold out to see if someone really wanted him or became desperate. If no one became desperate, they can hold him to the deadline this year with hopefully limited risk. Sitting there with a high but plausible price, seeing if anyone met it, but not being surprised if no one did was always the smartest and most likely path.

It does matter because you aren’t getting him for 20ish starts and in theory, if you have him for those starts, your ability to make the playoffs increases. Him being available to pitch in the playoffs doesn’t matter if you don’t get there.

I was thinking when is Getz going to sign or trade for a player that is better than his sorry ass was? They can improve 15-18 games and still be in the exact same draft position, with no long term commitments. Why not try to make it watchable?

Getz: “Not everyone is perfect.”

There hasn’t been a quicker rise and fall than Colas as a prospect but he’s still only 25, the same age as the stud “prospect” Joey Ortiz that Orioles fans so desperately want to deal for Cease. Also, many of the same Sox fan posters that want to dump Colas, even though he makes all the sense in the world to give playing time to on this awful 2024 Sox team, wanted to replace him with one year of Kevin Kiermaier or Adam Duvall. What are Kiermaier or Duvall going to do for the 2024 Sox on one year deals? Serve as mediocre trade deadline guys that return little to nothing? I’d rather see what Colas can do with those at bats. He could be the next Dayan Viciedo but maybe he actually develops into something? God knows it’s better than giving that playing time to 34/35 year old outfielders, which would basically be wasted at bats for this team.

If Sheets gets any non-emergency starts in the outfield for the Sox in 2024, they haven’t learned a thing and Getz is as awful of a GM as Hahn.

Don't bet on this.

I agree. At least some of us would be interested in watching Colas sink or swim. But Sox would rather play a guy like Phillips lol.

Colas is actually somewhat similar to the LH OF prospects they are trying to get. Colas was ranked as high as #78 on Pipeline I think for 1 year in the minors. He obviously never had the pedigree or multiple minor league seasons as Cowser and Kjerstad nor ranked as high and without on base problem Colas had and was coming off a long period of inactivity but he ended up making the most of that 1 year as a hitter. Of course he was worse fundamentally as a fielder than most of us knew but then again what do we know about Cowser and Kjerstad's OF defense also ?