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I feel like we could save 10 more pages of this thread if we just accept that the Sox failed Vaughn AND Vaughn failed the Sox.

Vaughn might be coming back down to earth - last 7 games: .192/.300/.231/.531

....and of those 5 winning seasons, many were with underachieving teams. In 2008, they blew a 6 game division lead and needed the Black Out Game to salvage the division title. In 2020, they choked away a 3 game division lead with about 2 weeks left to play and had to settle for the wild card. In 2021, they played only .500 ball in the 2nd half. Plus, in 2 of the 3 playoff appearances, they were totally outclassed by their opponent in the first round. The series wasn't even close. And Jerry wants taxpayers to build him a new stadium as a reward for this incompetence.

I think on one hand - one could say regarding Kopech the Sox developmental team was aware of the issues - so give credit there. The inverse of that is - the message wasn't being received by the player - so is that the player or is that how the message was being delivered and structure. Now in fairness - I think there is a balancing act of both - because what works for one player may not work for another and vice versa - development is very individualized. And some players just don't listen - given Kopech's past - wouldn't shock me if that is where he was. Regarding Vaughn - could be a bit of that - rock bottom scenario of going to minors and than clean start that just put him in a spot where it took all of that to drive a fresh look and change. Now one question I truly have is - was the jolt to the minors the biggest indicator in which case - would the Sox being a bit more patient and taking that hard / aggressive approach - actually have worked and they could have brought Vaughn up later on this year and see the same results. I think there might be some truth to the fact that the Sox traded Vaughn too early and they should have seen if their tough love approach could have worked - knowing at least with Vaughn they had the ability to keep him around next year had he made this sort of jump where as with Civale he's walking.

I mean, there is literally an internet meme created about you.

Yep they had me worried for most of the season lol

Saw that as well. The way they are playing they will pass it within the next two weeks. Good saddle JR with that record.

How can you not love Buehrle.

Only 8 games up on the Rockies. Getz is a disgrace.

Sox By The Numbers… Everyone knew this was coming since even before the season started but now it is official. The White Sox have guaranteed themselves another losing season. Since the start of the 2007 year the Sox now have had 13 losing years, five winning ones and a season exactly at .500. Their overall record from opening day 2007 through this latest loss is 1,339-1,602 13 losing years: 2007, 09, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 23, 24, 25 5 winning years: 2008, 10, 12, 20, 21 .500 year: 2022 Over 19 years that is one of the worst records in Major League Baseball. Period..end of story..full stop. Three playoff appearances: 2008, 20, 21 Three first round playoff exits. Playoff record since 2007: 3-8 Two other statistics of note and these will change with six weeks remaining: 14 times the Sox took a lead into the 7th inning or later… and yet lost the game. The bullpen is still a royal train wreck. And when the Sox DO get good pitching the offense is D.O.A. 21 times the Sox held an opponent to three runs or less…yet lost the game. Already four times this year they lost a game 1-0 Incompetent ownership…check Dysfunctional front office…check Inept players who are retreads, has-been’s and stiffs…check It’s got to get better someday, I only hope I’m still living to see it.

Dude turns in one of the absolute worst stretches in the 125 year history of baseball and when some criticizes him you come running like Commissioner Gordon turned on the Bat Signal. There might be someone here with a weird Chris Getz obsession, but me thinks there is some projection happening.

It’s all suck. Major suckage. There’s no end to the suck until they get a new owner and new GM running the show.

But loves money way way more. While also hating us just as much.

SoxTalk 2025: A Site for Wrong People

Relievers run hot and cold all the time. It's perfectly possible Kopech just rode a hot streak last year. Also, Kopech has made 8 appearances this season and hasn't pitched since June. People acting like he was saved by the Dodgers and he's some stud reliever now are just being ridiculous. The Sox have had plenty of known issues without inventing random nonsense to get mad about.

I think the greater point here is pretty clear, though the work to muddy the waters is definitely there. The Sox have completely failed in the development game for a long period of time now. While you can pull out the Kopech quotes that he didn't listen to the Sox (of course don't ask why that would happen), and leave out the ones where he quite literally states that the Dodgers changed some things too. While you can look at Andrew Vaughn and see that MIlwaukee made some pretty big changes there too It's leaving behind the bigger picture here. The Sox have a litany of players who their people have labeled as lazy, disinterested, and everything else, which is a perfect Venn overlay of the players who failed with some sort of expectations. The answer can't be that all of them were lazy and didn't listen. If you are a teacher, and your classes consistently don't perform and don't care, at some point you have ask how good you are as a teacher. Not every player comes to you understanding work ethic and what it takes to perform as a major leaguer. That is quite literally what coaches and Dev staffs are for. Many kids need to be taught work ethic, as their natural talent was enough to get by until their arrival at a level where everyone was that good. The Sox problems aren't all "make up" problems, as much as they would love us to believe that. Still to this date, we aren't really seeing changes in kids who saw both regimes, and our most successful players seem to be coming in from outside the organization. Those are red flags.

Oh sure, I agree. That hot take was a little hasty. Little minor league development, the outfield and bouncing around the infield BS. The Sox screwed him over. But he was near a league average bat, and once given 1B and left alone, didn't improve. His horrible April/May played a not small part in sinking the 2024 team to historic depths and dropping him to AAA in 2025 was a positive jolt for this team. So, yeah, if Vaughn finishes out the year on a tear, then puts up numbers immediately next year. I'm going to want some answers. From Vaughn, mostly. He's a professional hitter. Independent hitting labs exist, if the Sox didn't provide that, which I believe they do, now.

The organization was doomed and ruined all good feelings they were building when they handed the keys over to Tony LaRussa.

The Sox absolutely failed Vaughn, regardless of what he does in Milwaukee. He got very little minor league development time and then was thrown into the outfield immediately upon his major league arrival. Never played OF in college, never played OF in his brief minor league stop. Im not sure how that's even up for debate.

He literally says "We changed some things" when asked the question about approaches between the Sox and Dodgers, lol.

I agree that going through a 162 game grind on a team dead in the water is probably quite miserable, regardless of how much money you are being paid.

It's all Kopech's fault It's all Anderson's fault It's all Vaughn's fault It's all Moncada's fault It's all Eloy's fault It's all Lynn's fault It's all Roberts fault The Sox have been giving us this song and dance for decades now... the question is all how far you want to go back as to who they were calling lazy. It's trope at this point. If you want to keep eating from this trough, feel free, but I am done.

The only good thing Jerry has done in the last 15 years is to line up a local billionaire to be the next team owner. But even with that he's dragging it out to as late as 2034.

People are wondering this?

Rockies only need 5 more wins to avoid taking the crown of failure of Jerry Reinsdorf's 2024 season.

Never forget though: Jerry Reinsdorf really loves baseball.

Here's the HR, he finished 3-5 and a triple short of a cycle.

My understanding is that MLB also sold the TV rights of 5 teams to ESPN. Those fans will now have to pay $60/month to watch their team. Wouldn't be surprised to see more come of that. And here we bitched about free OTA. Praying CHSN isnt next there.

A .400 win % equates to a 97 loss season. That’s awful. Without significant offseason signings, this team is most certainly a bottom 5 team in MLB next year for a 4th season straight..

Sox had a 73 wRC+ in Match/April, and 91 since with bad defensive and base running numbers as a group. Is it better? Yes. It's also the 4th worst in baseball since April.

My only comment to contribute is that your are talking about people and human nature. Guys come to the Sox especially veterans (some because they have no place else to go), they see what is going on in the organization they quickly realize this team has no hope. None, nada, nyet of really competing for anything even a winning season, and it gets to them. Beats them right down. They may be trying just as hard but the results aren't there because mentally they are fried even if that is just subconsciously. Somehow they go to a different organization that isn't a laughing stock and in many cases they perform better. That's really not that hard to understand. Again that's human nature.

Buddy we both want the same thing here, the White Sox to be good. I don't understand why you are on this crusade to scorn everyone who has issues with how terrible this organization has been run in recent memory. Your constant defense of everything everyone has a problem with is what is nonsense here.

Kopech DID suck here. You're the one who is saying 5 inning before he was traded he got fixed and that's why he did what he did with the Dodgers. That's just conjecture on your part as all quotes being tossed around for this seem contradictory. Bottom line is, this is now the second guy in practically the stretch of a year who was not good in the Sox uniform, was traded, and all of the sudden they are performing at an elite level with their new team. Again I say, this is more of an indictment on the Sox inability to get the most out of their players. This is not a Kopech/Vaughn issue, this has happened a lot here with several players.

If anything, the Dodgers told him to just throw his fastball and slider and to scrap everything else, while the White Sox had him throwing 4 pitches.

If you're going to base your argument on the words from Kopech, these also seem important: - As a Dodger, shortly after being traded from the White Sox: - An interview with PitcherList after the trade: I don't really have a horse in this race, but to say going from the 2024 White Sox to the 2024 Dodgers had no impact on Kopech, that he simply brought over exactly what he was doing with the White Sox to the Dodgers is silly.

Kopech's ERA in July before traded (his last month with the White Sox) was 5.79 in 9 innings. August with Dodgers .68 ERA September with Dodgers 1.86 ERA Very confused how he "was a shut down closer" before he left.

I think the Rockies are ineligible for the #1 pick just like the Sox were despite losing 121 games last year.

Ah yes, Kopech, the other guy who allegedly refused to listen to the Sox but got traded, made a change, and was awesome overnight. Unless you think that is purely a coincidence?

Compared to how far behind the Rockies were from the Sox earlier in the season, yes.

mentally weak - bullpen ERA is overrated. It's doesn't measure clutch The real truth is in not letting inherited runner score. You give up a slam the best thing is you gave up a run.

They may wind up with the best odds for the #1 draft pick yet!

Impressive. I think they have a great shot of 400 losses across 4 seasons. And people wonder why I turned negative on this club. They’re testing uncharted territory levels of futility.

The Sox are 3rd to last in wRC+. That anchor they set last year is causing praise to be heaped on a guy in charge of the 3rd worst offense in baseball.

Well I don't think you snap out of your .531 OPS by NOT making some kind of change lol

Reality...

Perception? 🤣

Tatis made a pretty decent play at the RF fence...might be the OF play of the year. btw Vientos aka Vargas with 4 rbi's