Frobby Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 59 minutes ago, Sox72 said: Bleacher Report prospect rankings. Updated as of 15 hours ago. Pretty drastic differences with respect to some of the names mentioned here. https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/10103552-updated-top-100-mlb-prospects-at-the-start-of-2024.amp.html Of the various sites that do top 100 rankings, I think Bleacher Report is one of the worst. But I do like seeing Enrique Bradfield Jr. at no. 92. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) https://www.camdenchat.com/2023/11/3/23942456/orioles-prospects-joey-ortiz-season-review-2023 The terrible offensive season in 2019 (sub 600 ops) and age and size makes him the perfect sell high guy for Baltimore...but there's a reason he is buried behind something like 5-6 other infielders on all the various depth charts, starting with Westburg Henderson Urias Mateo and Holliday. Screams utility infielder ala Nick Madrigal. Better defense...so more valuable overall. Lacks dynamic speed game that Baltimore covers so much...if they're not going to provide much pop. For every 5'9" Houston Astro on a HoF track...there are 100 Yolmer Sanchez's and Nick Madrigals. Edited January 6 by caulfield12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Frobby said: Of the various sites that do top 100 rankings, I think Bleacher Report is one of the worst. But I do like seeing Enrique Bradfield Jr. at no. 92. Oh man, Joey Ortiz’s old ass jumped from 50 overall to 90 overall. I wonder why… Edited January 6 by WhiteSox2023 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 3 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Oh man, Joey Ortiz’s old ass jumped from 50 overall to 90 overall. I wonder why… Let's see if he can make it on the Rays...just not the dynamic type of impact talent you dream on and imagine him having a 3-4 let alone 5 fWAR ceiling. Complementary player...super utility guy who it would be nice if he had anything resembling Mateo's stolen?base game. If you merged Mateo and Ortiz and gave him 15-20 homer pop you would actually have something extremely valuable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 11 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Oh man, Joey Ortiz’s old ass jumped from 50 overall to 90 overall. I wonder why… lol. Definitely an exciting second piece for sure. JFO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jerksticks said: lol. Definitely an exciting second piece for sure. JFO It’s almost like even MLB media and fans know that Ortiz has nowhere to go to due his age and team, and are trying to force the Orioles to trade his ass for his own sake… But yeah, he’s still that 25.5 year old headlining young prospect that was rated 50 overall by the MLB last year!!! Edited January 6 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Who values Cease less: Balta, baseball gal aly or Orioles fans? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 5 minutes ago, ron883 said: Who values Cease less: Balta, baseball gal aly or Orioles fans? The difference is so small, it isn't worth discussing so we'll only spend 100 pages talking about it. 😁 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Cease gets traded by the time this thread reaches 300 pages… go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chick Mercedes Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 3 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: It’s almost like even MLB media and fans know that Ortiz has nowhere to go to due his age and team, and are trying to force the Orioles to trade his ass for his own sake… But yeah, he’s still that 25.5 year old headlining young prospect that was rated 50 overall by the MLB last year!!! I thought we wanted prospects that were increasing in value. Hmpff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkokieSox Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 hour ago, Chick Mercedes said: I thought we wanted prospects that were increasing in value. Hmpff Ideally, but our consultants in Baltimore informed us this is the best we can get. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 4 hours ago, ron883 said: Who values Cease less: Balta, baseball gal aly or Orioles fans? As diminished as Cease’s stuff was last year, at least according to Balta, he led all of baseball in swords. Those are ridiculous looking half swings hitters take when they have been fooled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy Demon Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 3 hours ago, hi8is said: Cease gets traded by the time this thread reaches 300 pages… go. You are optimistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: As diminished as Cease’s stuff was last year, at least according to Balta, he led all of baseball in swords. Those are ridiculous looking half swings hitters take when they have been fooled. https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/pitch-arsenals?year=2023&min=2000&type=avg_speed&hand= Cease was 16th and Kopech 21st in average FB velocity among starters. Unless someone is going to trade for Castillo Gilbert Miller or Kirby…there aren’t many available options. Luzardo, I guess. That’s if the goal is pure velo. Edited January 6 by caulfield12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) Getz isn’t going to trade Robert or Montgomery or Schultz, so he has to get this trade right. He messes it up, the next decade will almost assuredly look like Rick Hahn’s tenure. If not worse. Imagine how long a rebuild would have taken if there wasn’t Sale, Q, and Eaton on team friendly contracts to trade, and having to draft 10th every other year and drafting guys like Collins? After Cease, all he has left will only get him the type of crap he has already picked up. At some point, some other team will blink. Edited January 6 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy Demon Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Here is an interesting consideration: What would you prefer a trade to be? One with 2 highly rated prospects or 1 highly prospect along with 1 or 2 mid level prospects and 1 long shot? (2 top 50 versus 1 top 50, 1 top 100 and 2 others) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolle Tide Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 12 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Yeah, my assumption was both rookies playing equally well, but you already knew that. It’s just you trying to avoid the fact that Ortiz’s age makes him less valuable. He’s 25 ….one of your posters said he was 27 …..Geez talking about spinning it. I’m not here to fight with you guys. You guys obviously don’t like Ortiz. Noted …Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 42 minutes ago, Snowy Demon said: Here is an interesting consideration: What would you prefer a trade to be? One with 2 highly rated prospects or 1 highly prospect along with 1 or 2 mid level prospects and 1 long shot? (2 top 50 versus 1 top 50, 1 top 100 and 2 others) Until the White Sox can actually develop a guy who isn’t considered a top prospect, I’m going with 2 top 50s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Until the White Sox can actually develop a guy who isn’t considered a top prospect, I’m going with 2 top 50s. Yeah, I think I would take quality over quantity even though all prospects are a crapshoot. Even looking at the Sale trade, the 2 "quality" prospects at least had some MLB use. Edited January 6 by ptatc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolle Tide Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 12 hours ago, almagest said: You seem to be struggling with this. Let me try again - Ortiz is much less valuable to a team like the White Sox than he is to the Orioles or a team in their competitive window that's missing a SS because: He is turning 26 midway through next season and his MLB clock started. By the time the White Sox are getting competitive again he'll be like 29 and in his arb years. To add to that, the White Sox top prospect (who is ranked much higher than Ortiz) is a 22 year old SS, and he is likely coming up midway through this year. This means Ortiz shifts to 2B or 3B. 3B is currently blocked by Yoan Moncada and his giant salary. The White Sox are for sure playing him at 3B this year, hopefully recouping some trade value if he plays well. Ortiz shifts to 2B then, where he is far less valuable. Ortiz has a lower offensive ceiling and very real risk he will not hit in the majors, even given his recent offensive improvements. He is an excellent defender at a premium position, but that defense (and offensive profile) does not play nearly as well at 3B or 2B. He is not a headliner the White Sox should accept. He definitely has value as a second piece but the Orioles would probably be better off keeping him or trading him to someone who needs a SS in this case. Noted you don’t like Ortiz If Ortiz were traded to the White Sox and hits a .725+ OPS he would be extremely valuable if not for any other reason than his trade value. So Getz could decide that he will be too old for your rebuild. It sounded like he wasn’t planning on a long rebuild is that your understanding? How has his clock started …he got a sip? It would depend if he’s a better player defensively. Urias could certainly play at a high level at 2B or 3B. A manager would be delighted to have multiple excellent defenders. Also Ortiz and Montgomery are both prospects. My point is there is no guarantee Montgomery is a hit. He could fizzle, be mediocre, or just an average major leaguer. The same is possible for Ortiz and pretty much every prospect that they’d get in a Cease deal. Again, if Ortiz hits .725 plus he’s not less valuable playing second. Any GM who be interested in obtaining him would know he’s a SS. Again banking on Montgomery as a sure thing is optimistic but also a bit naive. Based on what we know he’s unlikely to be the second piece. I acknowledge again that you don’t want him as the headliner. But, it’s also possible that you don’t get a higher ranked player in the Cease deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RZlurker Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 10 hours ago, Frobby said: Of the various sites that do top 100 rankings, I think Bleacher Report is one of the worst. But I do like seeing Enrique Bradfield Jr. at no. 92. No Jacob Gonzalez? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Ortiz reminds me of a younger Jose Iglesias. Decent mlb player but limited upside. No thanks. Like other posters, I’d much rather take a swing at younger prospects even if the bust rate is potentially higher. That’s why the more I dive into it, the more I like what the New York teams have to offer. The Orioles prospects tend to be on the older side in general outside of a couple (“untouchable”) guys. Not as attractive to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolle Tide Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 13 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: This is just silly. What makes a better prospect? Is a high variance, high ceiling guy more valuable than a low ceiling, high floor guy? Is an older prospect who requires less development time in the majors but who might start regressing during a team’s control period more or less valuable than a younger, more raw prospect that might take a full year or two before being productive? How much value does MLB Pipeline place on a prospect’s proximity to the majors? How do they account for the inherent injury risk of pitchers vs. position players? If you are going to use these rankings as black & white, it would at least be good to understand these unwritten rules on how we’re supposed to value prospects. By the ranking systems he’d be your #2 prospect immediately. I think he has a pretty high floor. His glove will definitely play and there for he’s at least a utility INF. Most of the guys in your top 30 will end up sizzling out (not hacking on your system it’s a reality with most prospects) If he hits .725 OPS plus he’s extremely valuable at SS for you or in trade if/when Montgomery pushes him off SS. It’s great to have 19 year old phenoms ….Teams can overvalue them because of the luster….both will end up be nothing. You don’t like Ortiz as a headliner …. noted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 17 minutes ago, Rolle Tide said: By the ranking systems he’d be your #2 prospect immediately. I think he has a pretty high floor. His glove will definitely play and there for he’s at least a utility INF. Most of the guys in your top 30 will end up sizzling out (not hacking on your system it’s a reality with most prospects) If he hits .725 OPS plus he’s extremely valuable at SS for you or in trade if/when Montgomery pushes him off SS. It’s great to have 19 year old phenoms ….Teams can overvalue them because of the luster….both will end up be nothing. You don’t like Ortiz as a headliner …. noted #3 or #4 depending on the list. Montgomery and Schultz are easily ahead of him and Quero/Ortiz is a toss up. But it doesn’t matter really because in another year he won’t be on any prospect list because he will have either aged out of the lists or he’ll be in the MLB. The Sox are 2+ years from being competitive again best case scenario. A prospect that turns 26 this season isn’t a great fit for their current situation. Maybe a team like Seattle or Cincinnati would be more interested in him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rolle Tide said: He’s 25 ….one of your posters said he was 27 …..Geez talking about spinning it. I’m not here to fight with you guys. You guys obviously don’t like Ortiz. Noted …Thanks I never said he was 27. I believe that was another poster who has since corrected himself. He’s 25 and a half. He is 6 months away from turning 26 and only has a total of 33 at bats in the majors. He’s extremely old for a “prospect”. This isn’t an opinion. It’s a fact. I think Getz would love to acquire Ortiz, if he was still a 22 year old prospect, not an aging “prospect” who basically needs to start in the majors in 2024 or else he will lose all value. There basically aren’t many options with Ortiz which is the problem. Edited January 6 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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