Bummer to ATL

[Flash Tizzle]

And I honestly have no idea who any of the players traded for Bummer, are. No clue. I’ve been checked out of the baseball scene for several years now. Although from a purely numbers standpoint, you’re better off taking a flyer on five names than one or two slightly higher ranked players. We’re searching for bodies outside of FA to fill a ML roster. It’s not going to move the needle on our upcoming 100 loss season

Edited November 17, 2023 by Flash Tizzle

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I agree with credit here. The worst thing the White Sox could have done this offseason was to insist that they could make themselves win 83 games and be competitive for the AL Central or the Wild Card, every time they do that with a 70 win team it sets them back for years with bad contracts and traded away talent. The two moves they've made so far may not make them better long term, but neither is a move you make when you're going to sell everything out to try to luck your way back to .500 at the expense of the next half decade. 

That’s why the Benintendi “finishing move” was idiotic when they were still 6-8 players away from even .500 unless those names were guys like Harper Machado Wheeler.

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, bmags said:

I don't mind that we traded bummer, and I don't hate it, I'm just stating that after many of the hahn rebuild trades my least favorite were these "rebound" type players that had an extremely short amount of time to prove themselves before we had to make roster decisions on them + showed a very limited ceiling.

Are they more accomplished and likely better players than some 19 year old arm in A ball? Probably, but the 19 year old can hold some more value for longer. So I'm glad we got that.

I just don't think the hyperventilating about the number of players we received back or that they used to be an interesting prospect is interesting. We've seen enough excitement about casey gillaspies and such.

One thing I was thinking about here - the reason why you specifically called out "Ryan Cordell" here is that, in my eyes, there were disturbingly few of these sorts of guys acquired during the last rebuild. So few that you can name one of the couple guys they tried and everyone knows what you are talking about.

Look at the 2017-2018 rosters, how many busted 25 year old prospects from other teams are there taking playing time when they had it to give? You have Narvaez who was a rule 5 draft minor league selection, you have Palka, you have Dylan Covey (Rule 5 draft), Charlie Tilson (Traded for Zach Duke), and I guess Cordell and Nicky Delmonico. One of these actually did turn into a decent big leaguer, and of course I'll grumble under my breath about what was done with that.

The 2017 White Sox starting pitching staff had 4 guys who were age 30-35 in Holland, Miguel Gonzalez, Mike Pelfrey, and James Shields, along with Quintana who was traded midseason. Which of these 35 year old guys was going to be a part of their competitive roster in 3 years? None of them. They acquired these veterans, paid them sometimes tolerable money (Holland, Nova, Santiago, etc.), and didn't trade them for scraps.

In this one trade, Getz got just about as many "Random guys who might be worth a look" as Hahn got in the entire 3+ year rebuild process. Hahn did not churn the bottom of his 40 man roster to see if he could find anything useful, he plugged those veterans in so he could get innings and leadership or whatever. 

Maybe it doesn't work out, maybe they get nothing out of any of these guys, but if they're going to lose 100 games either way, why not lose 100 games with 25 year old pitchers rather than 35 year old pitchers?

[SoxAce]

8 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The way it was written…it can’t be just a two year difference from 2025 to 27.

Robert hits the market in 2027-2028, Soto in 2024-25.

Juan Soto is a UFA in 2025. I'm not sure whats so hard for that to understand. 

[Quin]

10 minutes ago, Flash Tizzle said:

And I honestly have no idea who any of the players traded for Bummer, are. No clue. I’ve been checked out of the baseball scene for several years now. Although from a purely numbers standpoint, you’re better off taking a flyer on five names than one or two slightly higher ranked players. We’re searching for bodies outside of FA to fill a ML roster. It’s not going to move the needle on our upcoming 100 loss season

Soroka was a ROY runner up and Cy Young vote getter in 2019, which was his only healthy season.

So like, he has talent, it's just all vaporized.

[The Mighty Mite]

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

The problem is, that package doesn't exist for most teams. Robert has to return at least 3 top 100 prospects plus 2 or 3, with one of them top 5, and the 2nd a top 20. 

So Robert is a potential .900 OPS, do you trade him maybe for a couple of .800 guys  and a .700 guy thrown in, I say yes because there is no immediate help in our farm system. It all depends also on what the Sox want to accomplish in 2024, last I heard is JR wants a competitive team so trading Robert makes sense as long as we pick up those .800 OPS guys.

Edited November 17, 2023 by The Mighty Mite

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

5 minutes ago, Quin said:

Soroka was a ROY runner up and Cy Young vote getter in 2019, which was his only healthy season.

So like, he has talent, it's just all vaporized.

Yeah he tore his achillies 417 times

[South Side Hit Men]

4 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Yeah he tore his achillies 417 times

“Don’t you blaspheme me.”

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, Quin said:

• Soroka
• Quantrill
• Toussaint
• Kopech
• Scholtens
• Shuster

NEW ADDITION

god help us

Whatever it takes, please get Ben Simon from the Mets. Even for just one trip through the Spring Training rotation.

Soroka, Toussaint, Kopech, Simon, Shuster

[bmags]

20 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

One thing I was thinking about here - the reason why you specifically called out "Ryan Cordell" here is that, in my eyes, there were disturbingly few of these sorts of guys acquired during the last rebuild. So few that you can name one of the couple guys they tried and everyone knows what you are talking about.

Look at the 2017-2018 rosters, how many busted 25 year old prospects from other teams are there taking playing time when they had it to give? You have Narvaez who was a rule 5 draft minor league selection, you have Palka, you have Dylan Covey (Rule 5 draft), Charlie Tilson (Traded for Zach Duke), and I guess Cordell and Nicky Delmonico. One of these actually did turn into a decent big leaguer, and of course I'll grumble under my breath about what was done with that.

The 2017 White Sox starting pitching staff had 4 guys who were age 30-35 in Holland, Miguel Gonzalez, Mike Pelfrey, and James Shields, along with Quintana who was traded midseason. Which of these 35 year old guys was going to be a part of their competitive roster in 3 years? None of them. They acquired these veterans, paid them sometimes tolerable money (Holland, Nova, Santiago, etc.), and didn't trade them for scraps.

In this one trade, Getz got just about as many "Random guys who might be worth a look" as Hahn got in the entire 3+ year rebuild process. Hahn did not churn the bottom of his 40 man roster to see if he could find anything useful, he plugged those veterans in so he could get innings and leadership or whatever. 

Maybe it doesn't work out, maybe they get nothing out of any of these guys, but if they're going to lose 100 games either way, why not lose 100 games with 25 year old pitchers rather than 35 year old pitchers?

There is a lot more than you listed. Casey Gillespie, Alen Hanson, Wily Garcia, Charlie Tilson, Jose Rondon, AJ Reed. 
 

Luis Patino, Brent Honeywell, Kodi Medeiros, Toukki Touissant 

Hahn always jumped a chance to get a guy that he had seen in the BA100 who had fallen off rather than a guy who may still be on the rise.

We found nobody with the extra playing time we had, but they absolutely tried*
 

*in the laziest way possible by jumping at players they heard of

[BBaum21]

2 hours ago, SoxAce said:

Oh absolutely. Soroka is a gem of a human. Nicky by all accounts is a great teammate and even better person. Getz really is valuing character in that trade too.

I can 100 percent say without any hesitation that Nick is a tremendous person. 

Comes from a great family.

He was great to deal with and cover from all the way back to Naperville Central (2011-13) and the times I've spoken with him since the Royals drafted him in 2016.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, WestEddy said:

Well, Graveman got them a backup Catcher, and Middleton brought back an interesting A-ball arm, and both of those pitchers were way better than Bummer. 

From what I understand per Garfien , Atlanta wanted him at the trade deadline and  Hahn didn't go for it.

You can't compare what the Sox got for Graveman and Middleton. LH hard throwing sinkerballers who don't give up HRs are a different animal. If the Braves can find a way to get him to throw strikes without substantially increasing his HR rate everyone they gave up will be worth it. Those guys were nothing to them.

[Quin]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

There is a lot more than you listed. Casey Gillespie, Alen Hanson, Wily Garcia, Charlie Tilson, Jose Rondon, AJ Reed. 
 

Luis Patino, Brent Honeywell, Kodi Medeiros, Toukki Touissant 

Hahn always jumped a chance to get a guy that he had seen in the BA100 who had fallen off rather than a guy who may still be on the rise.

We found nobody with the extra playing time we had, but they absolutely tried*
 

*in the laziest way possible by jumping at players they heard of

Clint Frazier, Lastings Milledge, Deivi Garcia, Wilson Betemit (did Kenny do this trade?), Kyle Crick

 

[baseball_gal_aly]

When I said Robert is not Juan Soto I was talking about the package the Padres gave up to get him, not what Soto would be worth this offseason. 

I don't think Robert right now would get the equivalent package that the Padres gave up for Soto. There's not enough of a track record. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by baseball_gal_aly

[caulfield12]

57 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

Juan Soto is a UFA in 2025. I'm not sure whats so hard for that to understand. 

Then Robert can’t be in 2027 when they have him under contract for 24-25-26-27…because that implies 2028.

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/chicago-white-sox/luis-robert-22648/

Soto will be at the end of 24, Robert 27.  Or 25/28, but it can never be a two year differential.

 

Or to do the opposite, Soto is 2024 and Robert 28.  There can never be a 2 or 4 year differential when it’s 3.

Edited November 17, 2023 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, baseball_gal_aly said:

When I said Robert is not Juan Soto I was talking about the package the Padres gave up to get him, not what Soto would be worth this offseason. 

Robert is also earning essentially what Soto gets in one year over the next three seasons.

How many teams can legitimately afford $35 million per year players…AND will actually commit to spending that much?

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, SoxAce said:

.... yea that's exactly what I said. 

Your exact quote.

“Robert is coming off a 5 WAR season at a premium position (something Soto does not play) cost much less in money and is cost controlled till 2027 (Soto 2025). He will absolutely get a haul.”

THROUGH 2027…not until.  Until means he can leave after 2026.

Edited November 17, 2023 by caulfield12

[baseball_gal_aly]

12 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Robert is also earning essentially what Soto gets in one year over the next three seasons.

How many teams can legitimately afford $35 million per year players…AND will actually commit to spending that much?

30 teams can legitimately afford it. It's that they won't commit to spending it. 

I will continue to believe this until the owners open up their books to the players and prove otherwise. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by baseball_gal_aly

[Capn12]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

No guarantee they will roster Soroka at $6-7 million except for proving Getz and Bannister/Katz correct…a player with two years remaining is basically just a flip candidate in this situation anyway,

Soroka isn't even going to cost what Bummer did, he will be under 6 mil. And no chance in hell he isn't in on the roster, as a SP at a salary between 4 and 6 mil.

[caulfield12]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

 

Well 1/2 are already cost cutting or using the RSN/Bally bankruptcy as the main reasons.

Twins and Indians really in cost-cutting mode.  Benetti’s Tigers, conversely, seem like they will be the most aggressive with their window soon opening.

Seems halfway due to Minny and Cleveland being unwilling to totally sell out for WS contending teams, once again using the excuse that teams like AZ and the Rangers didn’t even have to win their division to advance deep into the postseason.  Obviously the DBacks went with youth over “crazy” spending in the minds of other owners.

Edited November 17, 2023 by caulfield12

[SoxAce]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Your exact quote.

“Robert is coming off a 5 WAR season at a premium position (something Soto does not play) cost much less in money and is cost controlled till 2027 (Soto 2025). He will absolutely get a haul.”

THROUGH 2027…not until.  Until means he can leave after 2026.

Ok Robert is a UFA in 2028. Happy? 

That actually is another reason why the Sox SHOULD get a haul for him. An extra year of control.

[caulfield12]

12 minutes ago, Capn12 said:

Soroka isn't even going to cost what Bummer did, he will be under 6 mil. And no chance in hell he isn't in on the roster, as a SP at a salary between 4 and 6 mil.

Someone else quoted $6+ million.

$3ish million makes a lot more sense.

https://housethathankbuilt.com/posts/why-atlanta-braves-shouldn-t-cut-michael-soroka-on-friday-s-non-tender-deadline-01hf98qa01d1

 

Soroka, Patino, Touki, Scholtens, Cease, Kopech, Shuster, Eder, Mena, Nastrini…ten potential starters, some will come up with even 2-3 more.

Quality level another question altogether.

Edited November 17, 2023 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

Ok Robert is a UFA in 2028. Happy? 

That actually is another reason why the Sox SHOULD get a haul for him. An extra year of control.

I just think it’s important to be on the same wavelength when discussing player values and contract lengths…that’s why I go to spotrac 98% of the time, they always have the most accurate and detailed information, and quite quickly at that.

It’s always confusing because the offseason overlaps over two years…but MLBTradeRumors will always refer to this year’s FA’s as the 2024 Class.

[WestEddy]

2 hours ago, fathom said:

Doubtful they’d be number 1 honestly 

Cease could bring back 2 top 100 prospects and Robert 3. That would give them 8 in the top 100. The Orioles and Cubs have 6 each. Their systems are much deeper, though. Certainly top 3-5. 

 

[ptatc]

47 minutes ago, baseball_gal_aly said:

30 teams can legitimately afford it. It's that they won't commit to spending it. 

I will continue to believe this until the owners open up their books to the players and prove otherwise. 

It's amazing how many people know the numbers behind the MLB teams when the players union has been trying for decades to get them and haven't been able to.