Sox looking at building in South Loop

[Chicago White Sox]

10 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

The owners of the Tampa Bay rays are paying over $600 million dollars towards their new stadium. The owners of the Oakland/Las Vegas A's are paying millions of dollars towards their new park in Vegas. I would assume in both of those cases the team would own part of the stadium. I would think that same situation would   occur with the new White Sox stadium. JR would have to give some money towards it and I'm sure he would want part ownership of the stadium. I'm hoping this new stadium gets built in the South Loop and I'm also hoping JR stays out of  stadium design business. He was the one who changed the design of the present  park. He wanted another level of suites which gave us that upper deck that everybody  has hated. If he insists on another stadium with an upper deck that nobody wants to sit in he should get a kick in his rear end.

It sounds like they are planning to go with a smaller scale, more intimate park if they get this lot at the 78.  Not sure if the renderings that have leaked are real, but the park would be spectacular if legit and would imply Jerry is letting the experts take full control of designing this one.

[ron883]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

It sounds like they are planning to go with a smaller scale, more intimate park if they get this lot at the 78.  Not sure if the renderings that have leaked are real, but the park would be spectacular if legit and would imply Jerry is letting the experts take full control of designing this one.

The renderings just need TLR's stamp of approval first. 

[WhiteSox2023]

9 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

What have the Cubs done to win over the past several seasons?

Sox have had a far better off-season to date. Cubs lost their best hitter and Stroman this offseason, signed an unproven Japanese pitcher.

Both teams have won zero playoff series and a single legitimate division since 2016.

🤣  You are delusional.  Just because the Sox acquired more players than the Cubs doesn’t mean they have had a better offseason than them.  Which player have the Sox acquired that wasn’t dumpster diving?  Apparently acquiring multiple negative WAR players means you are having a great offseason.  Name one player the Sox have acquired this offseason that had a productive season last year.

I hate them too, but the fact is that the Cubs have won a WS far more recently than the Sox and if you can’t admit they currently have a competitive team while the Sox are in the basement of the worst division in baseball, you are lying to yourself.

Edited January 21 by WhiteSox2023

[WestEddy]

44 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Name one player the Sox have acquired this offseason that had a productive season last year.

Erick Fedde. 

[WestEddy]

I got lazy and didn't read through this whole topic to see, but when it comes to stadium talk, I'll always check fieldofschemes.com, first. 

https://www.fieldofschemes.com/2024/01/19/20840/friday-roundup-white-vetoes-royals-chiefs-tax-vote-everybody-loses-mind-over-white-sox-vaporstadium/

From the article linked: 

Quote

Crain’s Chicago Business has investigated who would pay for a new White Sox stadium in the South Loop, and come up with a resounding ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Gov. J.B. Pritzker weighed in yesterday to say “I think you know my views about privately owned teams, and whether the public should be paying for private facilities” but also “there are things that government does to support business all across the state” and “we’ll be looking at whatever they may be suggesting or asking,” so somebody’s ready to haggle over the price. Crain’s does confirm that the site is in a TIF district that would get property tax kicked back to pay for construction, but also that stadiums are typically owned by the public so they don’t pay property taxes anyway, so lots and lots of ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ here.

 

[Hamhock]

Regarding the size of the land vs. ballpark, something else to keep in mind is that the vast majority of the team’s office space currently crammed into the area behind the third base side of GRF can instead be off-loaded into a neighboring building in the new complex, like how the Cubs did.

[WhiteSox2023]

8 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Erick Fedde. 

He’s a lottery ticket.  A productive season in the KBO is not the same as the MLB.  He has a 5.41 career ERA in 6 seasons in the majors.  Maybe he has learned a new pitch but I wouldn’t put my money on him to be a good starter in 2024.

Edited January 21 by WhiteSox2023

[WestEddy]

55 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Name one player the Sox have acquired this offseason that had a productive season last year.

Between 2 teams, Nicky Lopez put up 1.8 bWAR over 93 games, which is a better than average major leaguer. 

Fedde did pitch every turn in the rotation, last season. He's a #3-4 innings eater. 

I understand your point, and yes, the Cubs are closer to contention than the White Sox are. I'm not even comparing the two. 

[Quin]

1 hour ago, WBWSF said:

The owners of the Tampa Bay rays are paying over $600 million dollars towards their new stadium. The owners of the Oakland/Las Vegas A's are paying millions of dollars towards their new park in Vegas. I would assume in both of those cases the team would own part of the stadium. I would think that same situation would   occur with the new White Sox stadium. JR would have to give some money towards it and I'm sure he would want part ownership of the stadium. I'm hoping this new stadium gets built in the South Loop and I'm also hoping JR stays out of  stadium design business. He was the one who changed the design of the present  park. He wanted another level of suites which gave us that upper deck that everybody  has hated. If he insists on another stadium with a upper deck that nobody wants to sit in he should get a kick in his rear end.

Do you have secret info on the A's?

They got the state to dedicate massive funding, which was extremely controversial. But they donated to 41 state legislators. The A's getting any public funding is a farce because they won't generate tourism on the Strip. 

Fischer has also not presented his plan for the stadium by the required deadline six days ago, which required how it would be funded. Now they're meeting to discuss playing at the soon to be abandoned Salt Lake Bees stadium.

The entire A's fiasco is a tragic comedy.

[Texsox]

5 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

They always site this when asking for public funds, but it almost always turns out bad for the public. The state owes more money now than It did when Soldier Field was renovated. Sure White Sox fans were OK with JR getting his stadium built, but what about those who don’t give 2 shits about baseball or the White Sox? 
I like an earlier post. This guy puts very little effort in trying to win. We were sold a bill of goods that a new stadium would give them the wherewithal to be a sustained success story. Even when given the  ALC, it never happened. There’s no reason to think it would happen if you built him another or spent billions upgrading the current one. The state needs to spend its tax money more wisely.

Exactly. Worst case they move. It's a simple game of poker. Would you rather have JR's hand or local officials? 

[Dick Allen]

19 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Exactly. Worst case they move. It's a simple game of poker. Would you rather have JR's hand or local officials? 

I don’t think JR has many bullets. Moving the team will required league approval, and the White Wox still have a viable place to play. When was the last time a team was allowed to move just because they sucked so much?

jR owes the fans and residents of this state a heck of a lot. He doesn’t get the stadium built and moves to Tampa, well you see how they draw, and JR would never have them winning as much as they do. He also would have probably had to sell the Bulls, and this was before the dynasty. At least that was the talk back then. He prints money with the Bulls, has a sweetheart lease, and refuses to ever stick his neck out with the White Sox. 

Edited January 21 by Dick Allen

[soxfan18]

50 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Moving the team will required league approval, and the White Wox still have a viable place to play. When was the last time a team was allowed to move just because they sucked so much?

The league would never let them move at this point with GRF still perfectly fine, and anyone who thinks differently is kidding themselves. 14 NL owners would absolutely vote NO on conceding the entire market to the Cubs. 

[Texsox]

Are the owners going to turn him down "for the good of the game?" When was the last time they didn't do what was in their best interests? Telling one owner no means if they wanted to move, they could potentially be told no. I believe they will do what is in their best interest, not the game, not the players, and not the fans. Owners will stick together and stick it to the fans every damn time. 

The league would still have a team in Chicago and gain another market with the TV viewership. They haven't been expanding because it's for the good of the game or competition. It makes them more money. Hey JR, it's going to cost you $20 mil that we'll all share. And be we, I mean the owners. 

[soxfan18]

Moving a top 15 team in valuations to a much lesser market is very much NOT in their best interests.

Edited January 21 by soxfan18

[Texsox]

7 minutes ago, soxfan18 said:

Moving a top 15 team in valuations to a much lesser market is very much NOT in their best interests.

How so? 

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, soxfan18 said:

Moving a top 15 team in valuations to a much lesser market is very much NOT in their best interests.

Yeah, JR can’t make it work in a metro area with 9.5 million people, but would better off in a spot with 20% of that. That makes no sense it’s one thing if you NEED a new stadium, but he can’t play that card. He’s probably playing the ISFA for another sweetheart lease plus some upgrades, because he doesn’t want to spend his money building a ballpark. 

[soxfan18]

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

How so? 

For real?

[Texsox]

41 minutes ago, soxfan18 said:

For real?

Sure. How did the As moving impact JR? Would you spend a billion dollars on a franchise knowing you won't have much flexibility? And how would the Cubs new valuation if the Sox moved harm the other owners? 

Bonus question. How does expansion help team's valuation? 

[ptatc]

44 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Yeah, JR can’t make it work in a metro area with 9.5 million people, but would better off in a spot with 20% of that. That makes no sense it’s one thing if you NEED a new stadium, but he can’t play that card. He’s probably playing the ISFA for another sweetheart lease plus some upgrades, because he doesn’t want to spend his money building a ballpark. 

He wouldn't have competition in the other city. It's an interesting debate. 

[soxfan18]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

Sure. How did the As moving impact JR? Would you spend a billion dollars on a franchise knowing you won't have much flexibility? And how would the Cubs new valuation if the Sox moved harm the other owners? 

Bonus question. How does expansion help team's valuation? 

The A's value will go up in LV.

The Sox value in Nashville would go down, bringing the leaguewide average down. 

This isn't a hard concept. 

[Sambuca]

So if this is almost universally considered a good thing, it’s not happening. We don’t get nice things, we don’t get to be happy.  

[southsider2k5]

3 hours ago, Texsox said:

Are the owners going to turn him down "for the good of the game?" When was the last time they didn't do what was in their best interests? Telling one owner no means if they wanted to move, they could potentially be told no. I believe they will do what is in their best interest, not the game, not the players, and not the fans. Owners will stick together and stick it to the fans every damn time. 

The league would still have a team in Chicago and gain another market with the TV viewership. They haven't been expanding because it's for the good of the game or competition. It makes them more money. Hey JR, it's going to cost you $20 mil that we'll all share. And be we, I mean the owners. 

Pretty sure that Jerry doesn't have a lot of owner friends left either. He tried to block this commish and lost big time. He's voted against many of these ownership groups too.  There could well be a fair amount of spite votes, and I think it takes 75% yes to move.

[Balta1701]

12 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

They always site this when asking for public funds, but it almost always turns out bad for the public. The state owes more money now than It did when Soldier Field was renovated. Sure White Sox fans were OK with JR getting his stadium built, but what about those who don’t give 2 shits about baseball or the White Sox? 
I like an earlier post. This guy puts very little effort in trying to win. We were sold a bill of goods that a new stadium would give them the wherewithal to be a sustained success story. Even when given the  ALC, it never happened. There’s no reason to think it would happen if you built him another or spent billions upgrading the current one. The state needs to spend its tax money more wisely.

 

11 hours ago, WBWSF said:

The owners of the Tampa Bay rays are paying over $600 million dollars towards their new stadium. The owners of the Oakland/Las Vegas A's are paying millions of dollars towards their new park in Vegas. I would assume in both of those cases the team would own part of the stadium. I would think that same situation would   occur with the new White Sox stadium. JR would have to give some money towards it and I'm sure he would want part ownership of the stadium. I'm hoping this new stadium gets built in the South Loop and I'm also hoping JR stays out of  stadium design business. He was the one who changed the design of the present  park. He wanted another level of suites which gave us that upper deck that everybody  has hated. If he insists on another stadium with a upper deck that nobody wants to sit in he should get a kick in his rear end.

In terms of public funds for this - note how different this would be compared to what Vegas is doing or what Tampa Bay is doing. Those areas are paying to keep a team there, maybe not in an ideal spot, because they want to use it as a way to make their city seem important. This is also why the state spent money on the White Sox's park 30 years ago, and why the City paid to renovate Soldier Field. These are the projects that are big money losers for cities.

If Chicago did this exact project with the White Sox, it is fundamentally different. This is an urban renewal project. This area is blighted, it has been undeveloped for more than 50 years. Between this site, the rail yard, and the river, it creates a large area of the city that is unwalkable and a barrier to high density development. It is also basically paying no tax to the city, it probably creates costs to police it, and it will be a drag on the surrounding neighborhoods.

If the city were to find a tenant to develop this area, it might take more than 20 years to recoup any funds they invest, but if the city could turn this into a developed area - they can think about returns in the 50 to 100 year horizon.

Furthermore, developing this site will allow denser development around it. Removing the blighted area in this spot will increase land values nearby and lead to the potential for significant development in this area and moving farther outwards.

That's all true for literally any tenant here, which is why the city would likely put up some significant money for any development in this area. However, there have been several attempts to develop this region, all of which, so far, have completely failed. Other developers have different risks - the office market is currently pretty weak following COVID, so if the most recent developer was planning to add significant office space here, there's likely no funds available for that right now.

For the city, the benefit of doing this with the White Sox is - the White Sox, as a baseball team, are likely to still exist in 30 years. Their funding situation and ability to raise funds is different from a business relying on other real estate markets. If they can get the White Sox on board as a key tenant here, and the city puts up some money, they will actually get the site developed. The White Sox aren't likely to cease to exist in 2027. This isn't a real estate developer announcing the project and then hoping to get funds lined up once they show interest from enough businesses.

The White Sox building a high quality park here that draws 25,000 a night 81 times a year should also lead to additional business around the area. It won't take long before someone opens "Big Hurt Bar" across the street, hell I'd do that if I could. Add a hotel on the site, and you've now taken a blighted, undeveloped area and turned it into a center of activity and development in the city.

The city should not pay the entire project, the White Sox should be putting up a significant amount of money as well. However, note the difference between rebuilding Soldier Field or building New Comiskey. In those cases, they were just spending money to keep the named thing in the city. Soldier field kept the Bears in the city, but spurred likely very little new development. New Comiskey gave Reinsdorf his parking lots, but I don't think there's any businesses in the area that rely on or cater to the White Sox. Hell, I think "Jimbo's bar" was the spot they showed on TV during the last game of the 05 World Series and that closed a couple years later. When the new ballpark was built at 35th street, people arrived on the highway or rails, went to the game, and left - it supported basically no other business. A walkable stadium, with businesses nearby, a hotel and other development on the site, with transit options as the main way to bring people in - this supports the entire area.

It is possible they can't make this work, the two sides will need to agree on how much money each side is going to put in and that will always be complex. But this is fundamentally different from just building a new park to avoid losing the franchise - this is a redevelopment project. Any developer on this site would expect a significant contribution from the city to bring it back to the tax base, and the White Sox offer substantial benefits compared to your average developer. It is to the taxpayer's benefit to come up with an agreement and get this done.

[tray]

I am concerned that speculation about the possibility of a new stadium is going to hurt the franchise if/when it proves to be just that, or appears to be something intended primarily for leverage with ISFA. The Sox should get on with this or make another plan in order to clarify a way forward as soon as possible. Acquire the parcel, seek pubic/private financing, obtain a few conceptual plans, address site issues. JR is the right person to make this happen, if he wants it to.

[dohnut]

9 hours ago, Quin said:

The A's getting any public funding is a farce because they won't generate tourism on the Strip. 

I don’t know about that - I’ll definitely be planning a weekend trip in Vegas to see the Sox. I imagine a lot of baseball fans of other teams will as well.