witesoxfan Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 QUOTE (3E8 @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 11:32 AM) Unfortunately, only one year of Floyd at $9.5M doesn't offer much surplus value. The estimate surplus value of a top 100 prospect is well over $10M, and Floyd is nowhere near that. Maybe the scarcity and high price of free agents bumps it up some, but the chances are low Floyd himself could bring back an exciting prospect. It saddens me as co-member of the Gavin fan club with wite. The time to deal Floyd for value was last offseason, but he was, uhhhh, sorta important throughout the year. I fully believe that, with the right pitching coach in the right situation, Floyd can be a #2. I just don't think it's going to be here because I don't think there's any chance he's with us next year. If the Sox could even get a return like the Twins did for Span, I would take that for Floyd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 QUOTE (IowanSoxFan @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 11:43 AM) Don't the Reds have Billy Hamilton, like the top leadoff prospect in all of the minors? Ruddy Yan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 QUOTE (3E8 @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 11:32 AM) Unfortunately, only one year of Floyd at $9.5M doesn't offer much surplus value. The estimate surplus value of a top 100 prospect is well over $10M, and Floyd is nowhere near that. Maybe the scarcity and high price of free agents bumps it up some, but the chances are low Floyd himself could bring back an exciting prospect. It saddens me as co-member of the Gavin fan club with wite. The problem with your logic is when a team is trying to compete, then actual production is going to be more important than surplus value. Why do teams pay big money for free agents who will most likely provide less value than their cost? Because they have a given need and future/potential surplus value doesn't lead to wins right now. Teams that want to compete next year and need pitching will run into a problem at some point. The market will continue to shrink and guys like Floyd be in greater demand. These teams will probably have the choice of going with a young guy that has a high potential of sucking, signin a crappy free agent of the scrap heap, or can trade for a veteran with a good chance of pitching 180+ innings with a solid ERA. I understand we won't get a ton for Floyd, but as usual with starting pitching, it's a supply and demand issue and we should be able to get something of value for him at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 If the Mariners miss out on Hamilton it'd be real nice to get Kyle Seagar and John Jaso for Rios+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 12:51 PM) If the Mariners miss out on Hamilton it'd be real nice to get Kyle Seagar and John Jaso for Rios+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 01:45 PM) The problem with your logic is when a team is trying to compete, then actual production is going to be more important than surplus value. It's always more important, and I never said it wasn't. QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 01:45 PM) Why do teams pay big money for free agents who will most likely provide less value than their cost? Because they have a given need and future/potential surplus value doesn't lead to wins right now. I don't understand what you mean when you talk about surplus value leading to wins right now. Surplus value is the difference between what a player's talent would cost on the open market and what they are actually being paid. It can be used to determine what a player who isn't a free agent might be worth in a trade. QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 01:45 PM) Teams that want to compete next year and need pitching will run into a problem at some point. The market will continue to shrink and guys like Floyd be in greater demand. I mentioned that this could be a factor in helping us get more for Floyd. But typically teams won't overpay much for a player of Floyd's talent level like they would for a perennial All-Star player. If a team is trying harder to be competitive, there are free agent options better than Floyd, and several others equal or close to his talent whom they could just offer contracts to instead of taking on a contract plus offering a prospect. QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 01:45 PM) I understand we won't get a ton for Floyd, but as usual with starting pitching, it's a supply and demand issue and we should be able to get something of value for him at some point. This means we are basically in agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ultimate Champion Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 11:25 AM) Some questions: What teams are gearing up to be the losers of the Greinke derby? What would these teams then have to offer us prospect-wise for Floyd? Perhaps it wouldn't turn out to be just Floyd going out....but just curious if there are any names I should know We probably wouldnt get anyone nationally recognized, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Off our own team, Nate Jones, Donnie Veal, Jose Quintana, Hector Santiago, etc. weren't considered anything worth mentioning, and even Dayan Viciedo was shat upon heartily by the national types with their fake hair and froszty smiles, so whatever. If we could trade Floyd and up with 1 reliever the quality of Jones/Veal and another player of the supposedlyt s***ty Quintana/Santiago/Viciedo type then Ricky The Wild Thing Hahn has seriuously done some mjor damage on the trade market & I for 1 will be pleeeeeeeeezed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ultimate Champion Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 QUOTE (3E8 @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 01:42 PM) It's always more important, and I never said it wasn't. I don't understand what you mean when you talk about surplus value leading to wins right now. Surplus value is the difference between what a player's talent would cost on the open market and what they are actually being paid. It can be used to determine what a player who isn't a free agent might be worth in a trade. I mentioned that this could be a factor in helping us get more for Floyd. But typically teams won't overpay much for a player of Floyd's talent level like they would for a perennial All-Star player. If a team is trying harder to be competitive, there are free agent options better than Floyd, and several others equal or close to his talent whom they could just offer contracts to instead of taking on a contract plus offering a prospect. This means we are basically in agreement. I aM in agreement with everything you have ever posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 QUOTE (3E8 @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 01:42 PM) I don't understand what you mean when you talk about surplus value leading to wins right now. Surplus value is the difference between what a player's talent would cost on the open market and what they are actually being paid. It can be used to determine what a player who isn't a free agent might be worth in a trade. I was referring to your point about Floyd not having as much surplus value as a top 100 prospect. However, I re-read your original post and agree we are in agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Can Zack make up his mind already so we can get the ball rolling. Seems like everything is stalled because he hasnt made up his mind yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 The Sox are trying to deal De Aza and Viciedo to get a better a better prospect mix to get in the Upton derby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 04:31 PM) The Sox are trying to deal De Aza and Viciedo to get a better a better prospect mix to get in the Upton derby. That would be interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 04:31 PM) The Sox are trying to deal De Aza and Viciedo to get a better a better prospect mix to get in the Upton derby. Who plays CF then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 04:33 PM) Who plays CF then? Rios or they'll figure it out later. Upton is too good a player to pass on because they may not have a perfect short-term solution in center and Hahn knows that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 04:40 PM) Rios or they'll figure it out later. Upton is too good a player to pass on because they may not have a perfect short-term solution in center and Hahn knows that. I don't disagree, it's just an interesting dilemma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 MLBTR says the Sox and Mariners discussed a deal for Viciedo. I would hope it meant somehow getting Kyle Seager in return. Also said a deal was discussed between Mariners and Reds that would send De Aza to Cinci. Not sure why it's worded that way. 3-team trade? Or did they mean Sox would trade De Aza to Cinci? I can't imagine Todd Frazier would have been in play, maybe a Henry Rodriguez or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 05:02 PM) MLBTR says the Sox and Mariners discussed a deal for Viciedo. I would hope it meant somehow getting Kyle Seager in return. Also said a deal was discussed between Mariners and Reds that would send De Aza to Cinci. Not sure why it's worded that way. 3-team trade? Or did they mean Sox would trade De Aza to Cinci? I can't imagine Todd Frazier would have been in play, maybe a Henry Rodriguez or something? Im pretty sure it meant Sox would trade De Aza to the Reds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 QUOTE (Baron @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 05:07 PM) Im pretty sure it meant Sox would trade De Aza to the Reds. win Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 These De Aza & Viciedo rumors are both from a Tribune article last night. It was interesting that the article said Hahn was looking for prospects from Seattle for Viciedo. I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in Tribune published rumors, but they do support the notion that Hahn is willing to move quite a few players, including any of our outfielders, to improve the team one way or another. As for Upton, he's a great player but I'd be worried about the cost. If they're asking for Andrus plus from Texas, I don't want to know what it would cost us. Given the overall lack of talent in our organization, I'd rather risk big money on Hamilton then trade four or five good pieces for an area of organizational strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSpalehoseCWS Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 05:25 PM) These De Aza & Viciedo rumors are both from a Tribune article last night. It was interesting that the article said Hahn was looking for prospects from Seattle for Viciedo. I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in Tribune published rumors, but they do support the notion that Hahn is willing to move quite a few players, including any of our outfielders, to improve the team one way or another. As for Upton, he's a great player but I'd be worried about the cost. If they're asking for Andrus plus from Texas, I don't want to know what it would cost us. Given the overall lack of talent in our organization, I'd rather risk big money on Hamilton then trade four or five good pieces for an area of organizational strength. I'd rather have Upton. If the Sox could somehow get Upton, without trading Sale, I think that would be a nice future to build on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cali Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 If the Sox could get Upton without giving up Sale, I would lose my s***.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 QUOTE (Cali @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 06:50 PM) If the Sox could get Upton without giving up Sale, I would lose my s***.... This isn't directed at you, but what makes Upton THAT great? The youth and room to grow that comes with it? I can understand that but right now he is far from superstar material. Based on his stats he seems like a really nice player, but worth selling a bunch of pieces for? We have some good major league outfielders and some really good minor league ones. If we are putting together a stellar package, why is Upton the best target? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hurt35 Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 I'd love to see Upton on the Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 08:01 PM) This isn't directed at you, but what makes Upton THAT great? The youth and room to grow that comes with it? I can understand that but right now he is far from superstar material. Based on his stats he seems like a really nice player, but worth selling a bunch of pieces for? We have some good major league outfielders and some really good minor league ones. If we are putting together a stellar package, why is Upton the best target? I thought the same thing. Moreover, Upton is another right handed hitter. I hate to have to keep reminding everyone of the need for a left handed hitter, but that is not only my opinion, it seems to be shared by Hahn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Dec 7, 2012 -> 08:01 PM) This isn't directed at you, but what makes Upton THAT great? The youth and room to grow that comes with it? I can understand that but right now he is far from superstar material. Based on his stats he seems like a really nice player, but worth selling a bunch of pieces for? We have some good major league outfielders and some really good minor league ones. If we are putting together a stellar package, why is Upton the best target? What kinda s*** is this? Justin Upton is barely 25 and done things none our current outfielders or garbage minor league outfielders have done and can never dream of doing. Like Cali said, you can get Justin Upton without giving up Sale, you do that s***. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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