Grandal Vs. McCann

[A-Train to 35th]

On 4/28/2021 at 2:08 PM, Harold's Leg Lift said:

The Mets have a very happy pitching staff. The White Sox not so much.  

You know this to be fact, or just what you believe?

[YourWhatHurts]

46 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

agree completely, looking at stats Collin's is having a better year offensively then McCann with half the at bats.  McCann currently has a minus WAR, we all liked Mc Cann but like you said he wasn't some savior.  IMO, he just happened to have a couple decent years before he became a free agent, surprise surprise.

McCann was never anybody's savior.  This is all the Grandal lovers refusing to believe that Yas is overall a shit defensive bat-first C.  This has been an issue for Yas for like, ever.  

McCann **was** at one point on a sweetheart deal.  Now he's paid more money, but still probably worth his deal.  At worst he'll be a $2-4M overpayment per year, but he's younger, and also at worst he's a half-time C more than a pure backup C.  Yas OTOH is older, much more of an overpayment, and probably just a DH pretty soon. 

All of these things many other Sox fans could see.  Except Hahn, the guy who for example gave all that money to Melky Cabrera and Drake's dad.

[Dominikk85]

Grandal is too passive currently. 

He is walking at an insane rate which is good and his chase rate is elite at 17% but his zone swing rate is just 41% (league average is like 65%) which means he is taking a ton of called strikes. 

You don't have to swing at every strike (you want to take some tough ones "on the black") but taking so many called strikes is not good because it means lots of two strike counts. 

 

His zone contact and swinging strike rate is actually improved but I wonder if that is because he just swings middle middle. 

He never was a huge plate coverage guy and a guy who patiently waits for a mistake pitch but I feel he has taken it a bit too far and is too passive. 

 

He needs to jump on pitches in the zone a little more. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Dominikk85

[MiddleCoastBias]

I can't remember if that "catchers on one leg" argument was in this thread is the Collins one, but thought this was pertinent 

 

[greg775]

Grandal is bound to start hitting. When he does, it will really help this team. I wouldn't stress about him too much.

[Stinky Stanky]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

Grandal is bound to start hitting. When he does, it will really help this team. I wouldn't stress about him too much.

For sure he's making my love of the OPS stat look silly.  Weakest high OPS guy I ever could imagine, to this point.  Hitting?  Show me any time you want, Yas.

[Dominikk85]

McCann obviously will get better as he is hitting now (babip and HR/FB way lower than career norms) but his Sox stats also were so good because he was protected and put in favorable spots. 

He likely is more of a 95 wrc+ true talent guy while grandal is like a 115-120 wrc+ guy. 

[caulfield12]

11 hours ago, Stinky Stanky said:

For sure he's making my love of the OPS stat look silly.  Weakest high OPS guy I ever could imagine, to this point.  Hitting?  Show me any time you want, Yas.

Quite similar to Collins in the minors, but obviously Zack with more XB hits in a bandbox like Charlotte...walks, K’s, GIDP, 4-3 rollovers, warning track flyouts.

[Bob Sacamano]

I feel like with the way Grandal has been walking and getting on base, he should be hitting 2nd but that is where Madrigal is. If you're not going to him his second, I personally do not like him hitting anywhere between 3-6.

[chw42]

6 minutes ago, manbearpuig said:

I feel like with the way Grandal has been walking and getting on base, he should be hitting 2nd but that is where Madrigal is. If you're not going to him his second, I personally do not like him hitting anywhere between 3-6.

Hitting him 2nd just clogs the bases if he gets on. The Brewers did hit him 2nd when they got to the NL WC game and that did happen to be one of his best seasons offensively, though. 

[Vulture]

13 hours ago, Stinky Stanky said:

For sure he's making my love of the OPS stat look silly.  Weakest high OPS guy I ever could imagine, to this point.  

How so? His OPS is .620. 

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Quite similar to Collins in the minors, but obviously Zack with more XB hits in a bandbox like Charlotte...walks, K’s, GIDP, 4-3 rollovers, warning track flyouts.

Collins was at .950 at AAA. how is that quite similar to .620

[mqr]

17 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

Grandal is too passive currently. 

He's a three outcome guy in a run scoring environment that has been reduced to 2 outcomes. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it feels like he'd just be trading walks for fly outs by getting more aggressive. 

[raBBit]

The lowest BABIP over a full season is .196. There have been a total of two under .200 since WW2. Grandal currently sits at .119. I am going to guess Grandal's BABIP improves from now until September. 

https://community.fangraphs.com/the-ten-lowest-babips-since-1945/

[mqr]

Going 5 games with a slash of .000/.636/.000 is honestly insane.l 

[SonofaRoache]

22 hours ago, YourWhatHurts said:

McCann was never anybody's savior.  This is all the Grandal lovers refusing to believe that Yas is overall a shit defensive bat-first C.  This has been an issue for Yas for like, ever.  

McCann **was** at one point on a sweetheart deal.  Now he's paid more money, but still probably worth his deal.  At worst he'll be a $2-4M overpayment per year, but he's younger, and also at worst he's a half-time C more than a pure backup C.  Yas OTOH is older, much more of an overpayment, and probably just a DH pretty soon. 

All of these things many other Sox fans could see.  Except Hahn, the guy who for example gave all that money to Melky Cabrera and Drake's dad.

Watch yourself. 

[chw42]

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/mike-trout-yasmani-grandal-and-other-early-babip-outliers/

Grandal's zBABIP is .261. Say what you want about his batted ball profile or the shift, he's definitely been unlucky even though it seems like he hits into the shift when he rarely puts a ball in play.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, Vulture said:

How so? His OPS is .620. 

Collins was at .950 at AAA. how is that quite similar to .620

His style of game was mostly built on high OBP/walks....than dominant hitting.  Maybe not so more Charlotte, since Alcides Escobar also was a 900+ ops guy there, but Collins his first 2-3 minor league seasons as a three outcome hitter with lots more walks and Ks than XB hits. 

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, raBBit said:

The lowest BABIP over a full season is .196. There have been a total of two under .200 since WW2. Grandal currently sits at .119. I am going to guess Grandal's BABIP improves from now until September. 

https://community.fangraphs.com/the-ten-lowest-babips-since-1945/

Were they also slow footed catchers who never get infield hits and constantly pull/hook everything into the shift?

[turnin' two]

2 hours ago, mqr said:

Going 5 games with a slash of .000/.636/.000 is honestly insane.l 

You'd have thought it was impossible.  Hahha.

[raBBit]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Were they also slow footed catchers who never get infield hits and constantly pull/hook everything into the shift?

Really? It's every season since 1945. So think of a player that qualified for a full season and they are included. I am sure Grandal is not the first slow guy with pull tendencies since 1945.

[CentralChamps21]

3 hours ago, mqr said:

Going 5 games with a slash of .000/.636/.000 is honestly insane.l 

Even more insane is that teams keep throwing him so many pitches outside the zone.

If I were a manager, I think I'd tell my pitchers they'll get fined every time they to to a 3 ball count on Grandal.

Edited May 10, 2021 by WhiteSoxFan1993

[Stinky Stanky]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Were they also slow footed catchers who never get infield hits and constantly pull/hook everything into the shift?

I got the answer for him.  Stop batting left handed. 😁  Can't hurt, might help.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Stinky Stanky

[Stinky Stanky]

4 hours ago, Vulture said:

How so? His OPS is .620. 

Collins was at .950 at AAA. how is that quite similar to .620

I'm embarrassed to say that I meant OBP.  That actually makes sense.  Age related dementia.

4 hours ago, Vulture said:

How so? His OPS is .620. 

Collins was at .950 at AAA. how is that quite similar to .620

 

[Dominikk85]

The difference between his ops+ and wRC+ is interesting.

Ops+ is 83 which is like replacement level but wrc+ is 102 which is slightly above average. 

 

That is unusual, wrc+ is considered more accurate but usually wRC+ is within 2-3 points of ops+ but in the rare case of low slugging and high obp it can differ as OPS overrated slugging and underrated obp. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

11 hours ago, manbearpuig said:

I feel like with the way Grandal has been walking and getting on base, he should be hitting 2nd but that is where Madrigal is. If you're not going to him his second, I personally do not like him hitting anywhere between 3-6.

Madrigal has hit 2nd 3 times in the last week right ? I know a couple of those were against KC but the Sox offense has done well with him there.  3-0  in that time .Madrigal might hit into more DP than Grandal because he actually swings at pitches but he's also more likely to be used in hit and runs or get a hit that might advance Tim to 3rd. Plus if both him and Tim get on that's a lot more speed on base than if Grandal gets on base. With the Sox last in HR's I'd rather not depend on a HR to score Grandal from 1st.

I agree he should be lower but it isn't that bad to have him 5th if you are going with R-L-R-L in the lineup and  Yermin and Vaughn might be able to hit more with guys on base. Vaughn is 2nd on the team now in doubles so if you can get Grandal to 2nd base, I like Yermin and Vaughn behind him, both guys with gap or HR power.