Jerry Reinsdorf is cheap

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, fathom said:

I think the following are all quite likely:

- Sox didn’t save as much during the rebuild as you think due to awful attendance and sponsorships 

- Sox lost a lot of money in 2020

- Jerry doesn’t think they will have fans this year

- He knows there will be a strike in 2021

I think 2 and 3 are 100% true for sure.  I think there is no doubt that if COVID doesn't happen, the Sox spent  A LOT more this year.  It hasn't gotten talked about enough.  We have a history that shows the Sox add dollars when they are good, and this is the first time it isn't really proving true, and there is a very big elephant in the room currently.  Yes, I wanted them to spend this winter, but it isn't surprising that they didn't.  It is also pretty obvious that with Pritzker and Lightfoot leading Illinois and Chicago, they won't be opening up attendance early, and even when they do, it won't be a high percentage until it is more clearly safe.

#1 I doubt, because as long as JR has owned this team, he knows what happens to the bottom line when this team is bad. 

#4, who knows.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, fathom said:

I think the following are all quite likely:

- Sox didn’t save as much during the rebuild as you think due to awful attendance and sponsorships 

- Sox lost a lot of money in 2020

- Jerry doesn’t think they will have fans this year

- He knows there will be a strike in 2021

I don’t buy the Sox lost a lot of money at all.  Where are these losses coming from?  Even a third of their TV deals would cover the bulk of their prorated payroll expenses.  The stadium is more or less free without any attendance.  Yes, they paid some front office workers and minor leaguers for a portion of the year, but I can’t imagine the losses were that massive.  Forbes estimates their total non player expenses in 2019 was roughly $100M and a ton of those would have to be park related.  Maybe I’m missing something though, but I’d wager the actual loss to be minimal.  The problem is the Sox lost any operating profit they typically pocket and Jerry must not like that.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Chicago White Sox

[caulfield12]

40 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Hey I agree it's a fun team just not quite what we thought it could be.  Making excuses for Reinsdorf by trying to look at it from his point of view is admirable but strange based on his past behavior. I think saying Covid has a lot to do with it is the only way to look at it if you are going to give Reinsdorf an out.

If you believe Osterholm and that the next 6-14 weeks (British and Brazilian variants become widespread)....are going to be the darkest hours and worst wave of this entire pandemic, that means perhaps no Spring Training for the next 1 1/2 to 3 1/2 months and almost an exact repeat of last year in terms of 60-80 games.

Is JR that smart to game this out in a way that other teams are not, or is he just naturally conservative....time will tell how things get interpreted, if there is a collapse in the CBA or work stoppage in 2022, etc.   Some teams, like the Mets, Padres and Blue Jays, are going full guns at this.  Whereas the White Sox are taking their typical half in, half out, infuriatingly middling path.

And still not seeing how closer was the single biggest need, though, with the likes of Bummer and Crochet on the roster.

[caulfield12]

29 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Hey I agree it's a fun team just not quite what we thought it could be.  Making excuses for Reinsdorf by trying to look at it from his point of view is admirable but strange based on his past behavior. I think saying Covid has a lot to do with it is the only way to look at it if you are going to give Reinsdorf an out.

If you believe Osterholm and that the next 6-14 weeks (British and Brazilian variants become widespread)....are going to be the darkest hours and worst wave of this entire pandemic, that means perhaps no Spring Training for the next 1 1/2 to 3 1/2 months and almost an exact repeat of last year in terms of 60-80 games.

Is JR that smart to game this out in a way that other teams are not, or is he just naturally conservative....time will tell how things get interpreted, if there is a collapse in the CBA or work stoppage in 2022, etc.   Some teams, like the Mets, Padres and Blue Jays, are going full guns at this.  Whereas the White Sox are taking their typical half in, half out, infuriatingly middling path.

And still not seeing how closer was the single biggest need, though, with the likes of Bummer and Crochet on the roster.

[ScootsMcGoots]

57 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I don’t buy the Sox lost a lot of money at all.  Where are these losses coming from?  Even a third of their TV deals would cover the bulk of their prorated payroll expenses.  The stadium is more or less free without any attendance.  Yes, they paid some front office workers and minor leaguers for a portion of the year, but I can’t imagine the losses were that massive.  Forbes estimates their total non player expenses in 2019 was roughly $100M and a ton of those would have to be park related.  Maybe I’m missing something though, but I’d wager the actual loss to be minimal.  The problem is the Sox lost any operating profit they typically pocket and Jerry must not like that.

I would imagine any owner of anything would not like profit loss.

[Saufley]

59 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

If you believe Osterholm and that the next 6-14 weeks (British and Brazilian variants become widespread)....are going to be the darkest hours and worst wave of this entire pandemic, that means perhaps no Spring Training for the next 1 1/2 to 3 1/2 months and almost an exact repeat of last year in terms of 60-80 games.

Is JR that smart to game this out in a way that other teams are not, or is he just naturally conservative....time will tell how things get interpreted, if there is a collapse in the CBA or work stoppage in 2022, etc.   Some teams, like the Mets, Padres and Blue Jays, are going full guns at this.  Whereas the White Sox are taking their typical half in, half out, infuriatingly middling path.

And still not seeing how closer was the single biggest need, though, with the likes of Bummer and Crochet on the roster.

Not baseball related, but pandemic related. I get my first shot tomorrow at 10:15AM!

 

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yes. If there's no baseball then it will likely be a lockout vs a strike. A strike could only happen if the owners choose not to lockout the players first. There's no chance of a repeat of 1994 because the CBA has not expired yet. 

I thought we were discussing the potential for a mid-season strike in 2021 followed by no baseball in 2022. Not happening because the circumstances are different. 

Does it matter if it’s a strike or a lockout? Either way there is no baseball, which is where I believe this sport is headed for the 2022 season. Nowhere did I mention 2021. 

[pcq]

Yes there are plenty of bad owners. Some are worse. Pirates are the worst right now. The Tribe's payroll is a joke. The Reds are tanking. 

[iWiN4PreP]

2 minutes ago, pcq said:

Yes there are plenty of bad owners. Some are worse. Pirates are the worst right now. The Tribe's payroll is a joke. The Reds are tanking. 

 

HOU - N/a
OAK - BAD
LAA - GOOD
TEX - I argue good, they picked a lane this offseason and have gone in strong, lots of moves to get yougner
SEA - N/a rebuilding team, doesn't need to spend, has built a great team

CWS - BAD
KC - N/A Can't say good as they they don't really put money into the team, but haven't had a bad offseason and have been active
CLE - BAD
MIN - BAD
DET - N/A same as KC, just not in a spending time period

NYY - Good
BOS - Good 
TB - BAD
BAL - N/A
TOR - GOOD

LAD - GOOD
SD - GOOD
SFG - GOOD, rebuilding team but spending money/winning usually always spends anyway
COL - BAD
ARI - N/A

CHC - BAD
STL - BAD
MIL - BAD 
CIN - BAD
PIT - GOOD, no LOL BAD

NYM - GOOD
ATL - Tough one, but BAD - Same position as us but won't upgrade or put money into it
PHI - GOOD
FL - N/A - Rebuild
WAS - GOOD


N/A mainly is for rebuilds where they have a legitimate excuse not to spend top dollars, but all rebuilding teams could do better if they did put money in of course.

GOOD teams - 11
BAD - 12
N/A rebuilding proper - 7

Surprised to find more Good teams than I expected

[South Side Hit Men]

Solid segment on the Parkins show today, covering the Nightengale comments which caused the Jerry cheap/clown dual threads last night. They disclosed an inside source stating they have $3M left this off-season. Combined with Nightengale/Stone comments, sounds like nobody beyond a minor league signing or perhaps a backup catcher or pitcher reclamation are the remaining options. They also discussed the fact with this limited payroll, signing Adam Eaton when and for what they did was absolutely ridiculous, payroll has decreased since the 2011 team, and the self imposed salary limitations are disgraceful.

Discussion starts at 21:30: https://www.radio.com/670thescore/podcasts/parkins-show-63/parkins-grote-sean-salisbury-interview-white-sox-being-cheap-hour-2-355674077

 

[Stinky Stanky]

Tough read, this thread.  Seeing us attack each other, not pleasant.  But funny, at times.  Gotta love White Sox fans.

[Texsox]

I've never been interested in counting someone else's money. I don't care if they win with a $100 million payroll or a $300 million. 

[iWiN4PreP]

I mean, let's be honest tho -- it's not JUST a Jerry problem. This is a problem with the MLB. 

You have the haves and the have NOTS. 

The teams that will spend, the teams that won't.

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/

White Sox are above league average, barely, and IMO that isn't saying much.

You look at those bottom teams and PUKE. CLE/PIT are beneath 30 mil. That is just... insane. 

As of right now, Oaklands payroll fits 2 of CLE. As of right now, CWS payroll fits 4 CLE teams. 

Just insane.

I mean, this is a DEEP topic that stretches well beyond just forum anger here. The game that we love is fundamentally rotten at it's core. IDK how long it's been this way, but everything is connected here with the owners vs. players union and the payrolls. It's all sickening when you really get into it.

I'm quite fascinated by the topic, I wish I had more literature on it, but it's also hard to find good literature when both sides are spewing fake news to garner public favor. 

But TBH anyone defending jerry/owners is out of their mind. These guys are making TONS of money. 

The arbitrary Luxury tax of 210 million is pretty lame IMO. That needs to go. 

 

[iWiN4PreP]

Some more payroll facts from our CWS

 

2020: Ranked 20th

2019: Ranked 26th with 91 mil

2018: Ranked 29th with 72

2017: Ranked 24th with 95

2016: Ranked 20th with 98

2015: Ranked 15th with 115

2014: Ranked 20th with 91

2013: Ranked 8 with 120

2012: Ranked 11 with 97

2011: Ranked 5 with 130

2010: Ranked 7 with 110

2008: Ranked 5 with 120

 

 

Those are opening day payrolls 

Basically, this team has been at the bottom of the league for the last 5 or so years. It's now in go-hard time and won't spend like it has in the past.

It has some arbitrary cap on the team set at like 120ish million. 

With the money saved from 2016-2019 we should easily be able to go for it and more, but they won't.

 

The ranks after the world series years were actually pretty good, like top 10 in baseball good. 

 

[iWiN4PreP]

Theoretically, they should have enough money to sign Bauer to a 30 mill year contract, extend Giolito and sign Cruz. 

 

It just makes me incredibly sad looking at it all. 

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by iWiN4PreP

[South Side Hit Men]

47 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said:

It just makes me incredibly sad looking at it all. 

To me, the primary source of angst for me, and I believe for a majority here, is their blatant dishonesty over the years, and specifically over the past few months.

• "We're looking for a manager with recent post season experience"
• "We are now opening our window for multiple championships"
• Rolling out Tony's "I don't have a racist bone in my body" Press Conference a day before the announcement of his latest arrest, and stating Tony would be available for questions after his case was adjudicated when 59 legitimate managers and GMs were available for Winter Meeting interviews.

If you have no intentions of interviewing anyone other than your owner's crony buddy with zero future job prospects based on his age, criminal record, and ten years outside of the dugout, then don't say you are undergoing a legitimate manager interview process. Just announce the hire and Renteria's dismissal when it's done, instead of blowing smoke up our asses. 

If your spending limit is a mid level payroll in a league were a majority of teams are tanking, don't boast about multiple championship windows. Teams much smarter than you aren't doing it, you're not either. Teams including small market teams and teams not allowed to play in their own country are committed to building a legitimate World Series roster, you are not. Just state you are happy with fielding a team you feel will be competitive.

if you intend to keep Tony in a sealed bunker until baseball starts this Spring or Summer, than don't say that he will be made available, and hope things blow over. Say nothing, and don't lose the minuscule credibility you may think you have. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by South Side Hit Men

[iWiN4PreP]

https://www.soxmachine.com/2021/01/28/if-the-white-sox-are-done-spending-its-back-to-hoping/

 

Singling out those numbers:

• 2011 value: $526 million
• 2011 payroll: $127.9 million

And 10 years later:

• 2021 value: $1.65 billion
• 2021 payroll: ~$127 million

Edited January 29, 2021 by iWiN4PreP

[35thstreetswarm]

46 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said:

 

 

The ranks after the world series years were actually pretty good, like top 10 in baseball good. 

 

Top 5 in baseball good.

[tray]

I get the gist of the thread.. The team has a real chance to win in 2021 so go all in,  even at the expense of being able to resign talent, acquire talent in future years, build farm systems, add to recruiting and scouting, improve facilities, marketing, media, etc..  Some are quick to make oversimplifications and presumptions A  professional sports  franchise has many moving parts to it.  It is not as simple as comparing  player salaries vs team revenue in any single year.

 

 

 

 

 

[EloyJenkins]

What baffles me more than anything...is otto porter jr at 27.5 mil to come off the bench. The Reinsdorf's will spend dumb money in odd spaces. Free agents wont go to the Bulls, but the Sox are desirable and free agents want in, but they wont pay them. I absolutely get the hold if they give Lynn and Gio extensions or are working on those...but if they arent the frugality is just stubbornness by an old curmudgeon.

[pcq]

Forbes will give you a number for operating capital which is different than equity. Team value does not mean they have operating capital. Do they have a line of credit from Bank Of Russia? The guy who pays the bills may not care about team value.  

[RagahRagah]

48 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

To me, the primary source of angst for me, and I believe for a majority here, is their blatant dishonesty over the years, and specifically over the past few months.

• "We're looking for a manager with recent post season experience"
• "We are now opening our window for multiple championships"
• Rolling out Tony's "I don't have a racist bone in my body" Press Conference a day before the announcement of his latest arrest, and stating Tony would be available for questions after his case was adjudicated when 59 legitimate managers and GMs were available for Winter Meeting interviews.

If you have no intentions of interviewing anyone other than your owner's crony buddy with zero future job prospects based on his age, criminal record, and ten years outside of the dugout, then don't say you are undergoing a legitimate manager interview process. Just announce the hire and Renteria's dismissal when it's done, instead of blowing smoke up our asses. 

If your spending limit is a mid level payroll in a league were a majority of teams are tanking, don't boast about multiple championship windows. Teams much smarter than you aren't doing it, you're not either. Teams including small market teams and teams not allowed to play in their own country are committed to building a legitimate World Series roster, you are not. Just state you are happy with fielding a team you feel will be competitive.

if you intend to keep Tony in a sealed bunker until baseball starts this Spring or Summer, than don't say that he will be made available, and hope things blow over. Say nothing, and don't lose the minuscule credibility you may think you have. 

I think this has been the real source of anger. It's not even anger about the lack of spending, it's all the obvious bullshit they keep trying to feed us. 

[poppysox]

8 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

I'd give it a C+.  Hendricks is huge and Lynn is a big one year get.. But Giving Dunning for 1 year still doesn't sit right with me.  Eaton, I am fine with. C+! Sign two veteran SP (cheap) and I'll bump it to a B-. Hang on to all our prospects, I'll give it a B.  Extend Giolito B+.    

All still very doable.

[GreenSox]

The team should be good; I'd be surprised if they're great, but we'll see.
A lot of assets to rebuild with + A reluctant owner +  a mediocre GM = a good team.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

The team should be good; I'd be surprised if they're great, but we'll see.
A lot of assets to rebuild with + A reluctant owner +  a mediocre GM = a good team.

They could be great if one of Cease or Kopech develops into a front-line starter.