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Spring Training thread

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36 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

This is frequently stated by many but I'm not sure I exactly follow.  We have three proven innings eating front line starters.  We have Cease who is half way there.   We have Rodon and Lopez with lots of starting experience and we have Kopech and Crochett who I keep advocating as the "fifth" starter with three innings for each.   I feel like that is five exciting starters (K-C as the fifth) with two back ups with experience/upside.  If you pay Bauer that eliminates the K-C concept...and also eliminates the extensions of Gio or Lopez...or stops us from getting Sale or Wheeler at the deadline.  I'm not sure outside of the Dodgers that any team has MORE starting pitching depth than the White Sox.   Obviously one of the top three blowing out their arms ruins things...which is true for all none Dodger teams...you can stay up at night worrying about it but I'd ask you which move would have fixed it?  

Completely agree with you up to the bold.  This is where we part company.  Its just a continuation of our previous disagreement.  Rodon and Lopez cannot be counted on at all.  Rodon is a DL just waiting to happen,  When you combine TJ with 3 years of reoccurring shoulder injuries, a bicep and a wrist, a WS contender has no business relying on him with an absolute mess behind him in Lopez.  Kopech & Crochet are out of the SP picture and I do favor this Sox 2021 plan for them; suggested it weeks ago before they announced.  If early planned starters then they would get shut down too early and leave gaps to fill down the stretch.  This way, they are both relative & involved throughout most of the season.  Though I do believe Kopech should & will get a handful of planned spot starts like in makeup DH's or top 4 skips which will happen.  Once they signed Rodon, they kind of locked into him.  I wish they had signed another more reliable innings guy for #5.  Once signed, he should be #6, at best.  That way, he could have proven in Charlotte that he still has an arm. There are lots of "ifs" & "hopes" and nowhere near the SP depth to cover them.  

For the record, I was not a Bauer advocate due to $.

Edited by Rounding_Third

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41 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

Completely agree with you up to the bold.  This is where we part company.  Its just a continuation of our previous disagreement.  Rodon and Lopez cannot be counted on at all.  Rodon is a DL just waiting to happen,  When you combine TJ with 3 years of reoccurring shoulder injuries, a bicep and a wrist, a WS contender has no business relying on him with an absolute mess behind him in Lopez.  Kopech & Crochet are out of the SP picture and I do favor this Sox 2021 plan for them; suggested it weeks ago before they announced.  If early planned starters then they would get shut down too early and leave gaps to fill down the stretch.  This way, they are both relative & involved throughout most of the season.  Though I do believe Kopech should & will get a handful of planned spot starts like in makeup DH's or top 4 skips which will happen.  Once they signed Rodon, they kind of locked into him.  I wish they had signed another more reliable innings guy for #5.  Once signed, he should be #6, at best.  That way, he could have proven in Charlotte that he still has an arm. There are lots of "ifs" & "hopes" and nowhere near the SP depth to cover them.  

For the record, I was not a Bauer advocate due to $.

I think they will do the K-C fifth spot.  Katz is a smart innovative pitching coach and I'm sure that he has watched what Tampa Bay has done.  Having a regular reliever game fits everyone's needs...Crochet getting stretched out to be a starter, Kopech getting stretched out to be a starter...limiting the innings for each (27 starts at 3 per start is 81 innings which would be near perfect) the White Sox not really needing two more elite arms in the bullpen...and the Sox filling the fifth starter role with either a lefty or righty starter depending on the team you are facing.    I can't name a single available pitcher this offseason that I would rather have than that.  Yu Darvish??  A Pirates pitcher?  As for no faith in Rodon...you shouldn't have faith...but again...go look at Mike Minor's career...very similar in expectations, disappoints and long stints on the injury reserve...and then at 30 he was really good.  Maybe you give Rodon a few April starts while we earn back that year of eligibility from Kopech.   The team invested in starting pitching with Lance Lynn...I'm not sure I wanted to throw more assets at that spot until we see what happens to the guys with dazzling stuff.      

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11 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I think they will do the K-C fifth spot.  Katz is a smart innovative pitching coach and I'm sure that he has watched what Tampa Bay has done.  Having a regular reliever game fits everyone's needs...Crochet getting stretched out to be a starter, Kopech getting stretched out to be a starter...limiting the innings for each (27 starts at 3 per start is 81 innings which would be near perfect) the White Sox not really needing two more elite arms in the bullpen...and the Sox filling the fifth starter role with either a lefty or righty starter depending on the team you are facing.    I can't name a single available pitcher this offseason that I would rather have than that.  Yu Darvish??  A Pirates pitcher?  As for no faith in Rodon...you shouldn't have faith...but again...go look at Mike Minor's career...very similar in expectations, disappoints and long stints on the injury reserve...and then at 30 he was really good.  Maybe you give Rodon a few April starts while we earn back that year of eligibility from Kopech.   The team invested in starting pitching with Lance Lynn...I'm not sure I wanted to throw more assets at that spot until we see what happens to the guys with dazzling stuff.      

You can think the K-C and wish it all you want.  Its not happening; already announced their plans.  Strategically, its a bad way to manage innings.  It's much more negatively impactful to the team as a SP role if one or both struggle or has a problem.   Also, there is no commitment that their long term plans with Crochet is as a starter.  There's a decision to be made.  He's been in the pen virtually his entire career and there's seems to be a good argument to keep him there.  He may throw too hard to be a starter.  He may be suited at the back end of the pen.  Also, they don't have a long reliever if not Kopech.   Tagging him as such gives him the chance to occasionally start as well. 

Mike Minor's injury history is pretty different. Yes, he had shoulder issues for 2 years but no elbow/TJ and then rebounded .  Rodon had shoulder/bicep then shoulder again for 2 years then elbow/TJ then shoulder again over span of 5 years.  Much much more damage over 2 1/2 times the duration.  Also, the two teams involved, KC & Tex were nowhere near WS contenders at that time of Minor's rehab & recovery & return.  They could afford the risk.

I hope Kopech has "dazzling stuff" too.  Our different here is you penciled him in for still "dazzling" as a given even after TJ surgery just because he had it before.  That's a bit of a rush to judgement for me.  We'll see!  I'm much more cautious as is Katz and the entire org.  It's one of the "ifs" for me because it's unknown until he works some significant innings.  He may need to reinvent himself a little; become more of a pitcher and less of a thrower.  The bullpen is the great place to manage and tweak (if needed)  him for a year.  It may take that long until they're all confident, including him.

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3 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

I am happy with minor leaguers with a decent amount of experience.

Mahtook is a high character guy. Was a leader on some great LSU teams.

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11 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

The evidence is you can disagree, but you would be wrong. Money matters, but Hahn will piss it away every time.

Let's focus on the second White Sox window Hahn is "trying" to win, since as we all know, his first go around sucked ass (2013-2016 - Four straight years of terrible under .500 baseball, missing an 100 loss season by a game). 

2019-2020 Off-season - Biggest Needs (Multiple Starting Pitchers & Right Field, one or two RPs). 2020 Budget for external free agents $64M

  • $18.3M - Hahn's biggest contract - a lengthy contract (15% of payroll) to a catcher on the wrong side of 30. Caught just over half of games in a shortened season.
  • $18.0M - May as well handcuff the club further with another overpay and lengthy deal for Keuchel, who can't top 90 MPH.
  • $12.0M - Hahn just HAS TO HAVE yet another negative WAR mid 30s DH on his resume. The one saving grace, not another four year deal.
  • $9.7M - Gio Gonzalez and Steve Cishek - Yeah, we found a playoff starter and late inning guy.
  • $5.6M - Yes, Hahn filled the RF hole. Take a bow. 
  • Extends Ricky Renteria through at least 2021, fires him 63 games later after their best record by far under GM Hahn.
  • Not counted in the $60M budget, eating $8.5M with Kelvin Herrera, because well who wouldn't want to spend $18M when your tanking on Kelvin Herrera.

2020-2021 Off-season - Biggest Needs (wait for it, multiple starting pitchers and a RF plus one or two RPs). 2021 Budget for external free agents $64M $28M + Grandal and Soft toss Keuchel signed last year.

  • $8.0M - I "promise" this former clubhouse cancer is better than Mazara. Hangs up on the flagship radio station interview 2 minutes in. Brings a negative WAR as well. The several better RF candidates, some of which are cheaper with any patience? No, White Sox policy is to sign a RFer before Christmas, doesn't matter if they are any good.
  • $9.6M - Yes, we have a solid young SP, but why keep our youth when you can trade for a guy Tony knows. This is the best of Hahn's transactions, assuming he doesn't do something stupid like extend him 2-3 more years into his late 30s.
  • $13.0M - You have solid internal candidates, can return Colome for $5M. Still have other ways to spend money. No, we need more guys La Russa knows. Long term contracts to relievers in the 30s, usually works out well. Hopefully a good chunk goes to pet rescue, at least it is a worthy cause.
  • $4-5 +M? Signs Tony La Russa, because hey when you have a mid market payroll, why not pay for two managers.

There's a lot fo stuff to criticize but Grandal's number of games caught and Keuchel....with last years performance....really don't make sense. Who gives a shit if he can't hit 90? Grandal was exactly who he was supposed to be and I'd say Dallas far outperformed expectations.

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1 hour ago, Heads22 said:

There's a lot fo stuff to criticize but Grandal's number of games caught and Keuchel....with last years performance....really don't make sense. Who gives a shit if he can't hit 90? Grandal was exactly who he was supposed to be and I'd say Dallas far outperformed expectations.

He's been quite critical of Keuchel when he spoke up and talked about leadership and then didn't perform well in the playoffs. So he's grinding his axe there.

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15 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

The countdown to real games gets louder every day for me

Yup.

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7 hours ago, Heads22 said:

There's a lot fo stuff to criticize but Grandal's number of games caught and Keuchel....with last years performance....really don't make sense. Who gives a shit if he can't hit 90? Grandal was exactly who he was supposed to be and I'd say Dallas far outperformed expectations.

Neither are bad players, but $36M is too much of this team’s payroll over the next 3 years on a $125M budget. That significant commitment has and will continue to take away flexibility for other needs that haven’t, and continue to go unfilled.

Also, unlike Hendriks, where the Sox were clearly in a competitive bidding process with other teams, no other team were handing either $18M AAV for four years.

Keuchel is a 3 or 4 on a competitive playoff team at this point, and was out of gas trying to get through 60 games last year. I mentioned Grandal’s games caught, because i don’t believe it’s likely Grandal can or even should catch 120 anymore, and don’t believe he’ll top 100 here (gaining 40 + more games played, if healthy, at 1B/DH). I’m looking at it over 4 years, not just the 60 games.

Lynn made the most sense of all the deals because he is a legitimate 2 or 3, and it’s one year deal. A 1 year + option deal at year end might make sense, if they (I’d say shortsightedly) don’t allow Kopech or Crochet to stretch enough to start next year.

 

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13 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

Wait..... People were telling me were weren't good.

Little did they know a yahoo sports power rankings from a writer we’ve never heard of would cancel their opinions

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Blame it on JR. Jay's could be sleepers while roaming the continent. 

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36 minutes ago, pcq said:

Blame it on JR. Jay's could be sleepers while roaming the continent. 

They still have pretty rough pitching top to bottom imo.  They're my prediction for the team that everyone gets excited about, and then doesn't do anything.. Thinking the Marlins and Padres from the early 2010s.

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5 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

How much weight did Abreu lose?!

wow he looks great.  impressive.  going to help him stay healthy.

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7 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Neither are bad players, but $36M is too much of this team’s payroll over the next 3 years on a $125M budget. That significant commitment has and will continue to take away flexibility for other needs that haven’t, and continue to go unfilled.

Also, unlike Hendriks, where the Sox were clearly in a competitive bidding process with other teams, no other team were handing either $18M AAV for four years.

Keuchel is a 3 or 4 on a competitive playoff team at this point, and was out of gas trying to get through 60 games last year. I mentioned Grandal’s games caught, because i don’t believe it’s likely Grandal can or even should catch 120 anymore, and don’t believe he’ll top 100 here (gaining 40 + more games played, if healthy, at 1B/DH). I’m looking at it over 4 years, not just the 60 games.

Lynn made the most sense of all the deals because he is a legitimate 2 or 3, and it’s one year deal. A 1 year + option deal at year end might make sense, if they (I’d say shortsightedly) don’t allow Kopech or Crochet to stretch enough to start next year.

 

And yet despite all these failures, some are calling the White Sox the best team in the American League. Could be worse. 😀

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49 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

And yet despite all these failures, some are calling the White Sox the best team in the American League. Could be worse. 😀

Yeah I wish we were the Phillies.  Top 4 payroll this year...always landing the big fish.  Its really the one path to success.

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5 hours ago, DoUEvenShift said:

 

 

He's looking pretty lean.

Good sign! 

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