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There is a pretty good case to be made Rick Hahn has committed fire able offenses. There is a pretty good case that could be made that KW and RH shouldn't be the architects of this rebuild. But I don't see where current performance should get them fired. That's fair. But I don't think they deserve a real long rope. Next year isn't looking too promising. Obviously, it doesn't mean it will be awful. 1977 was supposed to suck, 1990 was supposed to suck. 2000 was supposed to suck. I think even 2005 was supposed to suck. But as far as rebuilds go, 1990 and 2000 are the years we should be encouraged something many of us, me among them, don't see happening, may happen. But if it doesn't, fine. It's a rebuild. But there has to be some things to hang the hat on. Legit things. Not BS like they did on the pregame show yesterday trying to spin Giolito's year as average. It's been terrible. His ERA is over 6.00. And 2020, they should be a better than average team. If either of those don't happen, I think it's very fair to clean house.

And this all has to do with Rick Hahn’s background. Thank you caulfield for tying it all together as you do

Good, more to spend when the time/ opportunity is right.

Keep in mind that the 2018 White Sox are 30th in MLB payroll, and they are 27th in attendance. Forbes Magazine says the White sox are 14th in MLB revenue. The White Sox franchise is making nothing but money in this so called rebuild.

Thought this was relevant. You have to click for the screenshots

At what point is Rick Hahn accountable?

Being a lifelong White Sox fan I've seen different owners, players, managers and GMs. I've never seen a GM with as little success as Hahn. He has been here 6 years and has not produced one winning team. I'm hoping the 2019 season will be a better season than the past six years has been. I'm told that Hahns contract runs thru 2019. I would think if 2019 is another bad year the Rick Hahn era will be over. Maybe if Hahn is gone JR will come to his senses and interview me for the job of White Sox GM.

Because he plays for the White Sox. We don't get nice shiny new toys. We're the red headed stepchild of baseball. I have zero faith in this organization to develop hitters. I gave them a chance with Moncada and they're failing him. I get that Eloy is more highly regarded but to me he and Avi were/are very similar as prospects. I have no doubt that if Moncada were still with the Red Sox he'd look a hell of a lot better than he does here. This organization is clueless about player development. They haven't developed anyone from scratch that had a 5+ year career since Brandon McCarthy. it is approaching a decade and a half of utter incompetence. Every one who questioned whether the current FO was the correct choice to identify talent and acquire and develop it so far has been proven correct.

That's not fair. I don't see any reason he should be denied the right to buy a ticket and take in the game like any of us.

No reasonable fan is calling for KW/Hahn's head right now. That being said, if the team is not contending by 2021 something went way wrong. On a positive note, we are likely at rock bottom in our second year of the rebuild. 2019 should be slightly better than 2018 and trending upwards.

His July average being .231 isn't really telling us the whole story. His OPS that month was .749.

I'm a huge Moncada fan too. I used to think he'd be fine eventually, but going through his splits on fangraphs made me change my mind. I've taken it from "he'll be fine eventually" to "We'll see" This is coming from the guy who said that if he puts it all together he could be a notch below Trout.

There are a number of posters here who went from Rebuilds don't work (Cubs win World Series) Our organization can't rebuild (White Sox start rebuild) Okay fine we'll rebuild Why isn't the rebuild over yet? What are Rick Hahn's qualifications? I don't know about all the Twitter era stuff, but when this team kept "reloading" and going for it with high paid bums only to be out in July, I was more angry than anyone here. My tune changed when the White Sox did the right thing and moved to build a younger squad.

I am a big Moncada fan and I do think he'll be fine eventually. But only a small portion of that post was cherry picked. The following is not, and its still really bad. What concerns me is that it has just gone ridiculously south on him. Moncada is 9/74 with 33 K since the ASB. That is absolutely putrid. It isn't just 18 games. In May he hit .197 In June he hit .205 July was .231 .107 through a week in August. His April props up his entire season, in which he hit .273. Since May 1 he's below Mendoza. Roughly half of a season. Also, He hit .188 in July and August last year. Evidence is mounting he's either nowhere near ready or completely overmatched at the MLB level. His wRC+ is down to 89 for the season.

"Why hasn't anyone fired that general yet?" "When are they going to call up B Company?" "If only they had gotten rid of C Platoon when they got the chance?" "Why have a nuclear bomb if they aren't going to use it on the battlefield?" "Excuse me Drill Sergent, what are your qualifications, exactly?"

So what's the deal with the Braves and Phillies right now?

The extensions only matter because of what they were able to gain in trade because Both Sale/Q were signed to such nice team friendly extensions. Where the accountability comes in is that they had two seasons to get a damn supporting cast around Sale/Quintana/Abreu/Eaton/Rodon and they failed miserably. They weren't allowed to spend the money, there was failure in player development, and the fact they couldn't convince JR to open the wallet a little more and they didn't make any shrewd moves for distressed assets is an epic waste of that talent. KW did that and that is how he kept his job for as long as he did. They had a hell of a core and they put absolutely nothing around them. That is a fireable offense.

He's got an elite educational background, not uncommon with modern GMs. He's spent his front office entire career with one team - not ideal. He's already had a chance - and he failed. People get 2nd chances, but usually with a different organization. Too many excuses. I don't see much discernible progress...sometimes there isn't any and teams just suddenly improve. Nevertheless, there should be some timetable and some accountability - and on Williams as well.

Avi didn't have good game power in the minors but he hit damn near .400 for half a season in AAA before getting called up to the Sox. It means nothing. If Moncada isn't going to see 96 mph fastballs consistently in the minors neither is Eloy. Which means that take minor league stats with a grain of salt.

WTF? I like you Jack, but I have no idea what similarities you see between Avi & Eloy. Jimenez is arguably the second best hitter in the minors right now after Vlad Junior. Avi was never in the same stratosphere as a hitter or prospect.

What is up with all of the insecurity on Soxtalk lately? People even have to get into personal backgrounds now? Cripes.

Why the fuck does this matter at all? What kind of experience did Jeff Luhnow have exactly? Oh right, nothing since high school and yet he just built the best team in baseball. You got to move off this ridiculous tangent man.

As of 8/8/18, he's Theo's daddy

He never wore a varsity jacket and therefore is unequivocally unqualified for the job.

The bolded is a fireable offense.

Lets keep in mind, this is a business first and foremost. As fans we are all thinking the success/failure of the rebuild is ultimately wins/losses. But there is also the profit margin. Is JR's priority the win/loss record or the revenue stream. KW has survived through some lean win/loss years so maybe the success of the rebuild to fans is different than to JR. At his age, hopefully money is an afterthought and he is desperate for a winner like all of us.

I don't see any reason why his ceiling needs to be adjusted down. He may always strike out a ton but there's absolutely a ton of power in that bat, we've all seen it and drooled over it at times. Kris Bryant hit .292 despite 150 strikeouts because he also hit 39 home runs that year. Moncada should be able to pick up a few hits beyond that due to athleticism. The ceiling is still the same. The question is the likelihood he's going to reach it.

In general, I'm not really in favor of a low level prospect for prospect trade. There are too many unknowns that make it unsettling, and that's probably why it pretty much never happens (minus change of scenery types, which I'd be in favor of). To me, the whole point of having prospect depth at a single position is that you don't know which ones will pan out and which ones won't. You undermine that advantage by trading one away. What if the one you trade turns out to be a major leaguer and the ones you kept don't? Sure, there's high reward if the guy you trade busts, but it's super risky and, unless you have a inkling you are selling high on a prospect, I'd rather wait.

My bar for an MLB player being awful is a lot higher than Adam Engel. Engel belongs nowhere near a major league ballpark.

The good news is his range stats are top 3 in baseball for second basemen so he has all the tools to improve defensively. And he has, to an extent, recently. If (big if) we turn 3 years of Sale into 6 years of a solid starting 2B (even if not a superstar), 6 years of a MLB starting pitcher in Kopech (ace potential but, barring injury, probably no worse than a #3 with development), and whatever Basabe becomes, that's still a really good deal IMO.

This is exactly how I feel about a lot of the Moncada talk here.

I don't think he'll ever hit .280 in a season. I do think his peak years will be something like .265/.345/.490 though. Good for an .835 OPS.

Moncada's entire potential to be a superstar revolves around the development of his hit tool. He oozes a lot of other talent, so it doesn't shock me that even at .230-.250 he has an acceptable OPS. If he can ever make enough contact to get to .280+ he'll be a star. How many hits does Moncada get? This is one case where a traditional stat(batting average) tells a lot of the story. If Moncada makes contact, the rest will take care of itself.

Is Luis Robert dead in this scenario?

He eliminated about 55 games worth of data points to make the stats look that bad. It's cherry-picked and shouldn't be something that shocks you.

I'd hate to be in a fox hole with some of you guys.

I see late 2019 to 2020 to be the time of the turn around, but probably not divisional winning. By then you will have Giolito, Lopez, Moncada, Kopech and Jimenez on your 25 roster almost for sure (barring crazy regression or injury), By late 2019 You should also be to the stage where Dylan Cease and Dane Dunning are getting to Chicago (or really close to it), as well as guys like Burdi, Hamilton, and Burr in the back of the pen. So at that point your pitching staff should largely be getting into place with the new faces. Less certain, but very possible is seeing someone like Seby Zavala, Alec Hansen, Tyler Johnson, and or a Jordan Stephens. The position players are going to start hitting in more waves into the 2020 to 2021 range. Currently sitting at Birmingham you have the guys like Basabe and Collins, who could see Chicago at the end of 2019, but more realistically 2020. The guys currently at High A are much heavier in terms of talent, and are probably in the late 2020 to 2021 crowd. That is where you get into Robert, Rutherford, Luis Gonzalez, Micker, and Madrigal currently. I get the feeling that Robert, Gonzalez, and Madrigal could do a quicker move, with the more raw guys taking a bit longer. The Kannapolis team has a crowd of guys behind them that will factor more into the 2021 to 22 crowd. That is a long way of saying that if you actually sketch it out on paper, it is still going to be a while if you have reasonable expectations for players.

Well, if you are giving Hahn all this credit for Sale, Eaton and Q, you have to hold his rebuild accountable a little quicker than normal since he got the Moncada, Kopech, Basabe, Dunning, Giolito, Lopez, Eloy, and Cease headstart. i am not saying you have to determine it now, but certainly by 2020 things better be turning around in a pretty big way.

The Sox are 6th in MLB in catcher fWAR this season.

While I like Luis Robert, I think if this rebuild fails one of the big misses will be not committing to a huge latam class before the rules switched. In money terms, we spent a large amount that class, but it was not a 30 person class with 8 guys in the top 30.

I dont really care what you think, but please continue

Our draft head was with the Sox for 3 years, Braves for 3 years, and with the Sox for last 11 years. That he came from the Braves is quite the spin. And he was with Laumann all of those years until Laumann's retirement.

The endless jabbing at caulfield is mean and vindictive. And of course you got style points for it. He responded to a quote from dickallen. He'a a quality poster . So what if you don't like his writing style. Get over it . Quit being a baby.

I would say once the players acquired during the rebuild reach the MLB. The appropriate timeline for the trades and drafts to reach the MLB and perform is about 4 years. That's 2020 or 2021. if the team isn't competing by then, launch them all.

When this shit does or doesn't work. Nobody can tell right now.

I hate the concept of moving minor leaguers for minor leaguers because you have too many at one position. You've got multiple levels, you've got people hurt, you've got the DH and the ability to try people at other positions to build flexibility for them. I might actively right now avoid trading for an A-ball or AA outfielder, I'll grant that, but trading minor leaguers for minor leaguers just because of positions leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

A+ thread. Would read again.

please, start many threads and list many names.

If they give 600 AB’s to any of those CFs, then Rick should be fired on the spot. Playing time is an asset during a rebuild. Other than Leury, who is made of glass, none of them has done anything to warrant an extended look next year. Sign a vet that can take some pressure off the kids and potentially be flipped if things go right. I’m all for Machado, but if we miss I have no problem with a vet for a year and try at Arenado the following offseason.

His exact quote was, "We would just want to make sure he’s as well-rounded as possible, whether that be base running, defensively, obviously offensively...and we’re getting very close." That's not as definitive as saying, "he will be called up very soon", like some people are claiming. Not trying to call you out with this post. Just trying to point out that quotes get twisted and taken out of context a lot.