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I will say this: Shack is getting his information from multiple solid places. You guys can believe whatever you want though obviously. The constant craving and whining for information throughout this process and then immediate reaction to tell people who actually have intel that they are full of shit is quite ridiculous. Shack shared with the board to keep people informed. I told him: fuck that board. The majority of the people posting there now don't deserve the information anyway. This place is tiresome. There are some things in this thread that could be debunked but I don't really have the patience for it. Everybody could be united in being extremely pissed ta this organization right now. Instead, some of us like to criticize others who have legit info and call them "insiders". It's pretty lame.

You guys are missing the point. The rebuild didn’t hinge on Manny Machado, but it DOES hinge on the team being willing to spend money on the stuff they need the most. There will never be an opportunity to do so that was easier and made more sense than this one. So if not now, when? On an older player? When bidding against the Yankees and Dodgers? This isn’t about them missing the player, this is about them fucking up the process. And, specifically, in a way that just happens to be “cheap” as opposed to simply incompetent. This does not bode well, my friends.

The thing that greatly angers me is really not about not getting Machado. The things that makes me extraordinarily angry: 1) that we went out and got Yonder Alonso and John Jay as window dressing, and then offered an amount of money that was a completely bad faith, shit offer based on where everyone knew the money should be, including Machado, his agent, my cat, and any intern working in baseball. 2) that early along people scoffed at the White Sox being serious suitors, given their track record with FA, and then people grudgingly included them in reports when it became clear they were the only real offer for weeks. Then, after San Diego just went out and got it fucking done in a normal way, our organization looks like the punk ass b**** bridesmaids who got stood up at the altar, and we can now not too quietly return to being league laughingstock cheapskates. 3) that just once our stupid fucking front office can’t just have gone out and done something extraordinarily above and beyond to get a premier player in an era that demands it given where their organization is 4) that just for once our stupid fucking front office can’t fucking own their total lack of vision on this. If they had simply not pursued Machado, we would have been fine. Instead, we look like complete fools, have nothing to show for it, and the optics are terrible for luring future FA. There is no silver lining in how this was handled. How it was handled was categorically terrible.

History tells us to stay tuned. Something great is about to happen. When the Sox were rebuffed by ARod, they didn't let that stop them. They went out and got Royce Clayron. Something similar may happen here. Don't destroy those season tickets yet.

I think there is a line here for me. The people who tried to share what the believed was good information don't deserve scorn. Soxtalk has always been fine with that, all of the way back to the SI days. This winter we saw the proliferation of people who were lying to get attention, and it buried some good people in the avalanche. Of course a decent portion of the board didn't feel like separating the two things, and were more worried about if it worked out like was said or not, so they tarred everyone with the same brush. A few have even really enjoyed trolling about the insiders the last two days without any real care of who they slandered. It's just shame that it all fell apart like it did. It would be nice if we could work backwards as a group to some of the more nuanced discussions instead of just the outrage culture that seems to be infecting this board from the outside world.

Yep fuck the board. Ive been on this board for 2 decades (I hilariously said 1 decade earlier because I actually forgot how long ive been here.) In 20 years, Ive never asked 1 person for information. Ive never whined, craved or wanted anything from any insider. All I have ever wanted is for place to talk about the White Sox with people who have good ideas. Maybe its cool for like 1 minute to find out the Sox got a guy before the rest of the world, but the only reason it was cool at all, was because we had this place to discuss. If the Sox got Machado, this is where I would have celebrated. As sad as it may be, when the Sox were in the World Series in 2005, this was place I was posting. I wasnt out with some fair weather fans at a bar, I was here posting with the people who made that moment. So fuck this board. Fuck them all because we had a group of people telling all of us nobody peons that they knew more about this situation. Fuck us nobody regular joes who dont deserve the information. What is tiresome is the "insider" class that began to take shape this off-season. And I dont expect that this post will endear me to any insiders, and Im sure that means I wont be on the cool kids pm list or whatever. Shack, I just think that the way that the information was presented to us regular people who are undeserving, is that the Sox were making it clear they were going to get this done. Given that a month ago I was speculating figures of 8/282 and saying that 10/300mil was actually a better deal for the Sox, it is disheartening that the Sox didnt make those deals given how optimistic all of these insiders were. As Im sure you are aware, in multiple threads I said you would not say something unless you believed it to be true. But what I am saying is that now looking back, it seems that he information insiders were being given wasnt that great.

Very original topic. I don't think this has ever been discussed before.

Hey guys, long time lurker here, first time poster. Thanks for keeping me entertained throughout all this nonsense. Tuesday was probably the worst day I've ever had for being a Sox fan, absolutely gut wrenching. I have no sauces (sorry)...but just wanted to say I really hope the reports aren't true that we are out on Bryce. That would make absolutely no sense to me. Go "all in" on Manny (except not really, obviously)...but then just be like, "nah" on Bryce? That doesn't add up, and I hope that the backlash they've received over the past 3 days changes their thought process there if they were indeed, "out". Fans have been patient for too long, and promised good things with this rebuild, and that included this off season. I'm holding out hope that the front office realizes just how bad they need to sign Bryce. It goes so much further than just the player that he is (which is pretty damn great)...it's about setting a tone, sending a message to your fans, and showing you are serious about winning. Signing Bryce would absolutely change everything, and take away the pain of Tuesday instantly. In my eyes, its the FO's last chance to show we weren't just fed lies this whole time...its time they step up, and sign Bryce. If that means giving him 350-375 million guaranteed, then so be it. The value he brings on his name alone I feel would be worth every penny and more. Thanks again for keeping entertained....now go fucking get Bryce Harper!

I appreciate everything about this board. I don't have a lot of friends who are Sox fans, so you guys are it. I've appreciated being a part of this community for the past 13 years. Thanks to Jason and the staff for making this a great board!

Good gracious. I don't post anymore, but I do come frequently for the rumors since I don't follow all these random social media outlets. As some others have already stated, the normal banter here nowadays isn't really what I'd like to participate in. It's probably me though; I'm getting too old. Honestly, what's the difference between long-time board "insiders" and all the national or local media "insiders?" Have they been any more right or wrong than them? Let me dream a little! Dissecting the minutiae of how it was phrased and being indignant about it feels like I'm watching an episode of my wife's Real Housewives shows. Seems like a sign of the times to get triggered off misplaced or misinterpreted phrasing. Not that I'm an important member of this community, but I'd certainly be out if not for the rumor bearers. I'll go back to my cave now, but I hope the "insiders" know their contributions are appreciated by some regardless of the way the information is delivered. Thanks all.

I understand your frustration, but these people aren't complete rando's like JMR and peavy44 etc. These are generally well respected members of this forum who are trusted to not be idiots who make stuff up for attention. Their behavior in not looking for attention speaks volumes. Then, when a bunch of pissed off people want to take their anger out on them, you think they should continue to explain themselves? These people wouldn't listen to them if they explained themselves anyway.

So I've been churning all this over to try to make a story as I like telling stories and I think there is one to tell here. Let's start with 1 given point; that the White Sox's player evaluations are totally, completely, broken. Let's go from there. The White Sox put together their budgets and put Machado at $175 and Harper at $225. They realize they can afford both of them at those values. In December they meet with Boras and put an offer similar to that on the table, they meet with Machado in late December and put that offer on the table. Boras doesn't give much of a response but they hear out the White Sox's presentation. Machado's side starts negotiating. They bring in the "Much more experienced" negotiator at some point, and sometime in January they start adding vesting options. By mid-January the White Sox have a 7/$175 offer on the table to Machado and they've added 3 vesting options that could bring the value to $250, but they don't understand how those vesting options are viewed or how low that dollar amount is. They think that is a huge dollar amount, so they leak their offer to Bruce Levine thinking that it's so big it will scare away the competition, and Bruce doesn't get all the details but he also hears that the amount could go up to $250, so he's on the radio giving that classic interview about how the contract could be worth more. The White Sox think the $175 million offer will scare teams away, instead suddenly teams realize that this isn't going to go well over $300 million and they start sniffing around. Other offers start appearing, so Lozano's side goes to the White Sox and says they're going to have to guarantee that money just to get into the conversation. The White Sox gradually increase their guarantee, including right before Soxfest where they think they've done what Lozano asked and they think they're going to get it wrapped up at $200 million or so. Lozano still understands that's no where close to the final total, but every time the White Sox up their offer they think they're doing Machado a favor and bidding against themselves. Meanwhile, the White Sox keep leaking that they think they have a shot at both of them because they could do both for $225 million deals, but Scott Boras has stopped taking their calls because they're so far out of the race they're not worth hearing from, so they haven't talked in weeks. Over the last few weeks the Padres get more serious, realize that this isn't going to break their bank, their GM works with ownership to get ownership on board, and they come in with a strong $280 million guarantee last week. The White Sox up their bid to $250 million guaranteed. They think "They've done everything Lozano asked them to do" because that was something he asked them to do in January - Rick Hahn's words. When the $280 million offer comes through, the White Sox go ahead and add in 2 vesting options that they are convinced are valuable to the player, failing to understand how weak those are from the player's side. When Lozano comes around and says "I'll sign at $300", the White Sox don't even think it's worth talking about because they're convinced they've been bidding against themselves. That pushes the Phillies out, the Padres say yes, and he's a Padre. Meanwhile, everything the insiders heard was true - that the White Sox had a budget for Harper and Machado, that Machado's budget was less, and that they didn't want Machado's money to get into the Harper range, but they thought they were doing Machado a favor by going into that range. Meanwhile, they don't realize nearly how far away they are, and when other teams realize they're scooping up good deals, the White Sox go into "We've got to pay for the rest of our roster" excuse mode. So, we still hear some of the "They have a budget for Harper that was higher than Machado" stuff, but that's because they never realized that the budgets they had for both of them were laughably low. They thought that a $175 million offer would scare teams away, but it did the exact opposite, and they thought they were bidding against themselves as they went through their own ceiling to put that $250 million offer on the table for Machado. I don't know if it's right, but that's basically every single leak this offseason fit into one tidy picture.

Rick, Jr., this is your dad calling you down to dinner...please get off the computer!!!

Effort within his limits. So instead of falling 50 short, this time it will be 100. But hey, we tried.

Maybe the Sox can re enter the bidding so they can finish a comfortable 2nd place again.

For all of the guys here saying f the board and bragging about how long you have been a part of an internet community, you are taking this way too seriously. We are all fans of the same team and this team is not close to the most important thing in any of our lives. Offering info is cool but I’m tired of the feeling that if we even question somebody the old guard comes in and starts talking about the good ol days. If info was right everyone would be singing the praises of the insiders but what they said would happen didn’t so people question them. Big deal. “This board doesn’t deserve the info I have! “ is laughable.

These participation award trophy threads are predictable. Let me tell you how this horrible thing is a blessing in disguise. Nope, not buying it. A 26-year-old generational talent who plays in a premier position at a very high level and mashes the ball. 1.) Who cares if the baseball player is a dick or has a personality you don't like. His job is to be a very good baseball player not to be your buddy. 2.) Anecdotes about your feelings or your perception about what is happening are not germane to reality. Sure he could get hurt tomorrow. Aliens could take over tomorrow and outlaw baseball. Yellowstone could start to pop and dump volcanic ash on half the united states. Why does this stuff always seem to be projected with FA that we miss out on. Our #1 pitcher prospect could wreck his UCL and require Tommy John just after activating his service timer. I mean this all goes both ways. We need our prospects to hit and hit in waves and a few of them to be absolute studs. Outside of that, we need to sprinkle around real major league talent at a high level. Because in the end some of these prospects are not going to be superstars for whatever reason. Some of which you would use the farm as trading chits and the others will require a FA or 3. 2.) Adam Dunn is left handed. That's about as much as he has in common with Harper.

And now you are acting like an “insider” but are not sharing the information. It’s the obscure manner that most of these so-called “insiders” release their information that makes most people dubious.

It is remarkable that despite all of the insider information in the world, this message board accurately predicted the deal that machado would sign 2 years ago, while the sox own valuation system confused them that they were clear players for him while hamstringing themselves with a deal 50 mill less. 2 years to prepare and hemm and haww at how serious they were.

After a few days of reflecting, I am angrier than I was. The most likely scenario in all of this is that it is a 5 year contract after the opt out. So we lost Manny over refusing to guarantee the final two years that will most likely never become an issue. Even more infuriating is that if the Sox had matched, they would have paid less over those five years than they were proposing to pay under their final offer. I am just getting myself angrier biting into this layered shit cake.

Tatis, Jr., the undisputed best farm system in the business, the most knowledge of Latin America dating back to his time with the Rangers and now the Machado signing would all argue otherwise. In what area is Rick Hahn demonstrably better? Talking to the media for thirty full minutes without actually saying anything?

Preller is an awful gm. Just because he beat the Sox a couple times doesn't change that

https://theathletic.com/822659/2019/02/18/how-the-mariners-are-using-data-biomechanics-and-technique-to-build-a-better-catcher/ This has been going around, on how with focused PD staff, Seattle is workign to turn a great offensive catcher into a average defensive catcher so you have : a good catcher under control for years. It's clear after the sox claimed they "revamped" themselves after 2016, that they were ignorant of how needed to be done. I would argue this is because they kept the same people who have been around the same organization for 20 years, but regardless, the mariners are not the forefront of anything but ... look at this. Now, the sox took a project defensive catcher in the first round, and he will have to become a good mlb catcher without any of the same tools other catchers in other orgs get. This is how you become below average consistently. The margins matter a lot in baseball. Are the best players really 50% better than the worst? Or just 5% better in several areas that allow more consistent success. The sox are falling down despite the fact that they may be improving when judging themselves to previous practices, because other organizations are improving so rapidly. Cue Balta and marcus semien and ron washington.

Which stage of grief is denial again...?

If they got Harper, all would be forgiven.

Okay I think it's time to put on my tinfoil hat, but I don't believe him here. They seem too eager to deny this shit. They are definitely in it, or are least continue to monitor the situation.

For fucks sake, stop listening to Bruce and nightengale. You're clueless if you think the Sox aren't after Harper. Come at me all you want you know deep down im right

Yep...we need to be Philly's San Diego.

The Sox need to be the team that gives Boras and Harper a deal theyd say okay to today. They need to be the team that makes the other teams say "no thanks" to topping that offer.

I finally believe what I heard all winter. The White Sox were not serious contenders they were like the person at the auction that is excited until it gets real then they get scared real quick. Hahn believed he could get a bargain and then was clowned when the real team walked in with their money.

OK EVERYONE, THIS IS GOING TO BE MY LAST FACEBOOK POST. MY PERSONAL VIEWS ON PRIVACY SIMPLY CANNOT ALLPW ME TO CONTINUE TO BE VICTIMIZED BY ADVERTISERS. PLUS YOU GUYS HAVE ALL SEEN MY POSTS AND OBVIOUSLY YOU KNOW IMMJUST KILLIN IT WITH MY LIFE AND I DONT NEED TO KEEP CONVINCING YOU. MANY OF YOU WONT BE SURPRISED BECAUSE YOU KNOW HOW EDGY AND ABOVE EVERYTHING I AM. SO IF YOU WANT TO KEEP IN TOUCH, MESSAGE ME FOR ME PERMANENT CONTACT INFORMATION. UM BUT YEAH, I WONT DEACTIVATE THE ACCOUNT UNTIL SUNDAY IF YOU GUYS LIKE WANT TO TALK ME OUT OF IT OR WHATEVER

I honestly don't think Dave knows much anymore. Not saying that because I want Harper on the Sox. I just don't think anyone would trust him enough to tell him anything of value.

The Sox spent $13 million they didn't have to spend. It's almost a third of the difference between their offer and SD's. And people were laughing at me for suggesting Manny would probably prefer the Sox spent that $13 million on their offer.

Tim is sometimes hard to understand, but when what he says can be heard and understood, he can be quite eloquent. This was one of his better moments. I enjoyed the boat metaphor. I like his confidence and his team spirit.

I personally cant give the Sox FO the benefit of the doubt that they will do something that makes sense in FA other than what they usually do. I refuse to fall for the reading between the lines and trying to read the mind of this front office and how they are approaching a meaningful signing. I won't do it ever again with this current FO and owner.

Who said this signing was like porn to Caulfield? We've got the new Royals/Puig.

They both suck until one of them actually wins something.

The difference is that Preller convinced a much poorer ownership group to fork over that guaranteed commitment of $300 million...either Hahn doesn’t have that gene of persuasion in him like KW (what happened to the Hahn of the Robertson, Cabrera and LaRoche series of signings?) or he’s just completely neutered and basically the equivalent of Jed Hoyer in terms of real power in the Sox organization.

@Look at Ray Ray Run Listen, we're all venting right now. As time goes on, and we get further removed from this skullfuckery, We'll all be a lot more rational. I actually commend you for keeping a level head through out all of the embarrassment, disappointment and anger. There is really no need to argue. We all need to be negative and vent currently. It has been an embarrassing 3 days for the franchise. We're all mad. If you want to be positive, go start a positivity thread. I tried to be positive for a bit and I got shat upon so there is zero reason to do so right now. This too, shall pass. Once OD gets here we'll all be excited for baseball again. Until then, deal with the negativity and don't argue with us. Please let us wallow in our misery. It is therapeutic for everyone currently. We're trying to process the fact that they are, in fact, the same buffoons that they were from 2014-16. We're pissed off because: And we let them off the hook. So please forgive everyone for being irrational for the time being. We'll move on eventually. Please, don't argue because it is like talking to a wall. I'm giving you advice for your own mental health. Peace, Parkman.

Pay me $4 million bones and you can yell at me about whatever the hell you want.

It's pretty obvious cancelling wouldn't be an option. But, at the very least, if there is a high volume, it will send a message. I feel bad for the ticket reps. They have to put up with all the crap and I'm sure they get paid a wage many would think is unlivable.

How does this help the Harper case.

All allegedly known facts go against sox signing harper. 1) Machado allegedly Sox #1 target 2) Sox not willing to offer 10 years 300mil. 3) Harper has allegedly turned down a more lucrative offer than that. So now im supposed to believe that the sox are going to pay more money for their 2nd choice when they could have just signed their first choice? That makes 0 sense. But i guess that is the reason it may happen. Its illogical, so therefore its the White Sox way. Ive been here a decade, im a pretty positive person. But if i was betting greg's house, id bet against the Sox getting Harper.

Forgiven, but not forgotten.

Why do we care what happens to Patrick Kane?

We waited 3 years for this moment. This WAS the big moment to prove to fans they were serious. They blew it by being the same old incompetent Sox.

Crazy part is they could have really benefitted from the lightning signing Machado/Harper would have brought in terms of turning some casuals from Cubs to Sox. Cubs had a dismal offseason and plenty of those casual Cubs "fans" would have been at the Swellopt Rate had they signed 1, ESPECIALLY both. But like always, this franchise stumbles and fails.

Regardless of what Hahn might say, it seems very implausible that they would not attempt to sign their other major targeted acquisition. The market seems to be favoring the buyers and with the Phillies now being about the only other team in the Harper sweepstakes, why wouldn't they? I can't imagine that they anticipated such a lack of suitors and if they originally were determined to try to get both, what justification would they now have for passing on the one remaining? It just wouldn't make any sense. That said, as patient as I have been, I too will lose all confidence in this organization if they do not make a concerted effort to sign Harper. If they had never espoused an interest in these two young free agents, I could accept that, but after all of that bluster and bravado, it would just be completely inexcusable. Fortunately, that very odd rationale, which Hahn provided, regarding no longer being in on the Harper negotiations, because they don't want to drive up the cost for the Phillies, suggests to me that he was not being forthright. The only way I can explain that comment is to attribute it to an attempt to conceal their true intentions. Otherwise, it would have to be considered one of the dumbest comments that Hahn has ever made. Why in the world would they want the Phillies to get Harper, at a better price? And finally, as we all know, delivering on Harper is now more important for retaining the fan base, than it was when all of this started. At this point, what Hahn, the twitter posters, or any of us care to postulate, or speculate, is less meaningful than the simple logic. One can only imagine how much pressure there is to get a deal done for Harper. Wouldn't you love to be privy to the internal communications of this front office? It's probably more interesting now, than it has been, at any point in the off season. It probably looks more like a war room, assessing damage control, after a major attack.

This is the reason we get screwed over as fans. We cannot let this clowns off the hook for the 1000th time. IRL, if a company was taking our money and dicking off with it, we'd discontinue using that company until they got their shit together.

Sorry NotHahn but you are NotRight. WhiteSox are more likely to sign Gio or Keuchel than Harper. I think they will sign one of them in the next week. Sox valued Manny more than Harper and they wouldn’t go higher that $250 million. They have no shot at Bryce.