Leaderboard

This is like the baseball equivalent of anti-vaxxer talk

I’m so sick of this “TWTW” / anti “statnik” charade you put on. Me being objective about Jose’s value has nothing to do with me liking him or not. I said I’d bring him back on a two year deal in this very thread. I rock an authentic Jose Abreu jersey to all the games I go to. I think his value to clubhouse is tremendous. I’m a huge Jose fan at the end of the day. All that being said, comparing his offensive numbers to Machado to try to justify paying him more is without question poor logic. Positions matter and a good 1B should hit better than a 3B all else being equal. Ballparks matter and the Grate is a much more friendly stadium than Petco. And when it comes to handing out contracts, age matters because you are paying for future production. When combined, all these factors make Manny Machado a terrible comp for what Jose Abreu should get if extended. If you want to make a case for paying Jose more, you guys should be citing someone like Carlos Santana who got 3/$60M coming off a 115 wRC+ season as a 31 year old. However, that would require critical thinking and you & Vile would rather just be emotional and compare him to the young, “dick” 3B.

He hasn‘t earned his promotion to Birmingham though. ?

Yeah usually you don't go to the AFL after you win your rookie of the year award.

This just made my day. Too funny.

No I have argued forcefully and with detail on the subject numerous times. I liked Bill James in the late 80s. Devoured his stuff in the beginning. Now it's all totally off the rails. If you want to believe Rick Rueschel was as good or better than Juan Marichal or that Whitey Ford wasn't a great pitcher go for it. If you like continually shifting realities be my guest. Three outcome baseball is great ain't it? At least Jason Benneti, who loves analytics understands that WAR is cumulative and traditional stats can't be ignored. Your comment proves my point about snide and arrogant. All my kids and all of their kids were vaccinated. I'm alive today because of a real scientific advance that made a previously impossible surgery possible. I love data and stats of all kind. If I ran a baseball team I'd make good use of them. I just wouldn't put myself in an analytics straight jacket.

I deserve this. This player is totally showing me up and I'm ok with it.

I don't know if there's anyone here who has as consistently opposed the white sox rushing people over the years as me, so keep that in mind when I say this. I want him up earlier than that. He has a good spring training and a good month in AA next year and he's my first baseman. If something goes wrong and his numbers aren't there, fine...but this is a hitter who should be ready to go. Get him to AA this year. Are they heading to the southern league playoffs? Start him in AA next year, let him prove he's better than those guys (he absolutely should be) and f*** it, throw him into the fire.

Fegan said Robert to Charlotte has been discussed with Steele Walker moving to Birmingham.

Anti-sabers have to do this in order to justify their ridiculous beliefs. Beliefs which go against the baseball establishment. You know, real general managers, scouts and the MLB. See how easy that was? Yes, you are the equivalent of an "anti-vaxxer" and your arguments against it are eerily parallel.

I haven't called anybody that 'nik' word in a long time. I try to be respectful. I'm using "advanced stat lovers" or "advanced stat people" or stat worshipers, etc, and I always say "many" not all any more. there are no absolutes. I read your full post but like the above mentioned part the best. i did not realize these things when I was rebelling greatly against you. The fact you wear an Abreu jersey is good enough for me. You are not a Jose disliker. Sorry for lumping you in the wrong group. I agree with the above mentioned lines and say thank you for recognizing Jose's value! I also love Vile's logical defense of Jose as well. But thank you Chicago White Sox! You wear the jersey of Abreu and said you recognize his value to the clubhouse, etc. You would win any arguments how Manny is more valuable than Jose but thank you for the Jose love! You are OK in my book. Sorry if I implied you were ill informed! You are OK by me. BTW I think this is a correct statement by you. You said: "All that being said, comparing his offensive numbers to Machado to try to justify paying him more is without question poor logic. Positions matter and a good 1B should hit better than a 3B all else being equal. Ballparks matter and the Grate is a much more friendly stadium than Petco. And when it comes to handing out contracts, age matters because you are paying for future production. When combined, all these factors make Manny Machado a terrible comp for what Jose Abreu should get if extended." (All true, I think Vile and I realize Jose isn't worth Manny money, we'd just like to see him take a bit of Jerry's money. I was saying instead of the one-year 8 million somebody mentioned, I'd like to see him get 3 years 39 million. Then all one year deals the rest of his career. Or two years 26 mill with a team option for a third year.

He's a 4 A hitter. Last year he hit some meaningless home runs in meaningless games. That was last year. This year they're not playing meaningless games and he's 1 for fucking 45. It's inconcievable that this bum is on a major league roster.

100% Tough decisions must be made.

Considering the last two years he was worth 6.1 bWAR and 3.7 fWAR, he's easily worth $6million a year. His career OPS is also weighed down by his first three years when he was sub .600. the last two years he's been right around .700. I've got no issue whatsoever giving $6million to a utility infielder who plays plus defense at every position, has great range, and is a great clubhouse presence. That's actually a bargain for what he brings to the table. He's exactly the type of bench player you want on the team when we start to compete again.

What a stupid response. How did we get Moncada and Kopech? How did we get Eloy and Cease? How did we get Giolito? Where did Leury come from? Do you even know? Honestly, your post isn’t good enough to wipe my ass with.

I've always thought AJP would he an awesome replacement for Stone when he retires. I've been super impressed with AJP as a color a analyst.

I can't believe how some people aren't "sentimental" any more about guys who have been with the team a long time. I get the feeling the ideal team to some fans is one in which every player is between the ages of 25 and 29 with the exception of some pitchers. For some reasons the modern stat minded fan doesn't mind having some elder pitchers on the team. In my perfect world, a guy like Jose is our feel good story of our next postseason or 2 and he is knocking the ball all over the park in leading us to ALCS and WS titles and he's the guy crying and hoisting the trophy during the parade(s).

You've argued it forcefully, but you haven't provided any evidence, so it's not a great argument. For example, you made up a stat in your original post where you would find the percentage of RBI that a batter converts to an RBI. You hypothesized that it would correlate well with who you already think good hitters are. I imagine it WOULD correlate pretty well. Probably about as well as RBIs correlate, in fact. But you know what would correlate even better? wRC+. And there's tons and tons of research that proves it. I'm guessing, based on the stance you're taking, that you don't understand wRC+, but I bet if you read about it, you'd like it a lot. The basic premise behind it is pretty similar to your RBI/chances stat, actually, it just uses events that are actually stable and predictive of future performance, unlike RBI. If I'm sounding condescending, I'm really not trying to. I'm not suggesting that you aren't smart or can't understand wRC+, I'm just saying I don't think you've tried -- maybe because it isn't interesting to you or you already have negative feelings associated with other stats like it. I don't think you'd get snide remarks very often if you took the time to learn about the stats that you're railing against. Like, if you made an informed argument about why wRC+ ISN'T better than RBI or RBI/chances, in terms identifying the most productive hitting seasons, I don't think anyone would react negatively, even if he/she disagreed with your conclusion. That's where the anti-vaxxer analogy came from. I used it because I assumed you WEREN'T an anti-vaxxer. As you know and have demonstrated, it makes all kinds of sense to vaccinate your child. For someone to believe he/she SHOULDN'T do so, that person would have to believe some things that aren't true about vaccines, which means that person would have to have not really done much research on the subject. The whole "but different sites can't even agree on a formula for WAR!" thing actually tracks pretty well with that. Lots of people hear that line, and decide simply to dismiss the whole concept without ever checking the veracity of the statement. So I think the analogy works. It's not meant to call you ignorant, but it is meant to illustrate that ignorance is the result of choosing to be uninformed on a topic.

Rios to greg is a four-letter word. I did not like his game. Leury has won me over pretty much. I.Love.Leury at this time.

To some extent he won't be wrong either. His splits with RISP are really F***ing good. Career .320 average, .949 OPS, 2019 .337 average, .947 OPS. You put him 5th in this lineup next year where he's following a bunch of good young hitters and he might knock in 120 runs. We shouldn't ignore this, those are solid numbers. He knows how to approach an at bat with runners on base, we should take advantage of this. That 2/$25, I'd be ok with that. He's really good at this, if he's willing to DH, that's a solid contract for him. You could talk me into a few million more than that. But that thing he's really good at doesn't mean I'm going to overlook his other numbers. With no one on base this year, .243 average, .286 OBP, .778 OPS - those are Palka numbers. He's a really good RBI guy. He's got good power even as other things weaken. He's a limited hitter and a limited player in other ways, and it annoys me that I have to point that out because some people want to pretend that all we need to care about for him is the stats where he looks good and the others don't count for whatever reason. That prompts people like me to point out the stats that are good and the stats that aren't so good, and anything but eternal praise is somehow judged as an insult by certain people. I want that to stop. I just spent a whole paragraph praising how good he is with RISP and saying why that is valuable, let's accept that as a good situational hitter. Finally, please, for God's sake, can we never mention him in the same breath as #35 again. Jose Abreu is a good player, particularly with RISP. Frank Thomas put up a career 1.019 OPS with RISP, and that's counting the years when he was declining. Jose Abreu is a solid player and a really good RBI man. Frank Thomas is a f***ing legend.

You won't have a choice. This is a FOX-exclusive national broadcast.

Man, I love Jose. Seeing this thread get torn apart because his All Star selection is somehow proof that sabermetrics is bunk is mindblowing and disheartening.

That's actually just greg's account over there

some guy on Sox Machine wants to give him 6 years!

Guys WSI is -------->

He can keep the seat warm until Giolio's career is over.

I wonder if Kasper will bring the Barrett punch up.

Oooo interesting. I may have to tune into that. They'll have an obvious Sox Homer on the Cubs broadcast. AJ says hawk is the greatest commentator of all time after all

Leury is an every day player. He can hit for average, has speed on the bases, has a gun for an arm, and can lead off. Benetti said that he had about as many base hits as Castellanos does this year. I'd bring up Robert and have Eloy, Robert and Leury as the starting outfield for the rest of this year and to start 2020, No reason to give Palka another 60 AB's in the majors while Robert is held back. Leury is good enough where the Sox can wait for an internal option (Basabe, Rurherford, Walker,,) to develop and replace him down the road, if necessary. I would bring Madrigal up to play second, Rendon at short (until TA comes back) and Leury in RF. Stop switching Leury between infield and outfield.

Greg, are you dense? Did you not just gloss over two posts in which Chicago White Sox and I explained why Machado is worth more than Abreu? Go back and read the posts before you utter more BS.

Filibuster？

Palka isn’t a major league player...anybody who says so are probably the same people that were penciling in Delmonico as a long term piece after 2017

Bruh you can't even figure out how to format your posts. I like the fact that Baseball Reference updating their formula to improve WAR is what turned you off it. Nobody in the "stats industry" will claim WAR is the only stat that matters or that it's perfect. You're knocking down straw men. If you're just epically trolling kudos I guess.

I think the harsh reality is that even an improved Palka doesn't fit in with long-range White Sox plans. He was kind of fun in 2018, because the team had little going for it, and he'd crank one out occasionally. If the club gives him a few more at-bats and chance to break out of it some, that's fine with me. But that should not happen if younger players are not getting their time in. At the very least, Palka should not be with the team in 2020.

From Fegan's latest: The flood of new information: “At Oregon State we had a lot of reports, maybe even more than here.” (Madrigal says) ? https://theathletic.com/1062705/2019/07/05/the-white-sox-prospects-behind-birminghams-slow-turnaround/

Getz does deserve credit for paying attention and integrating broader mlb trends into our minors. Considering the rapid pace of improvement or overhaul within player development currently happening, it will be difficult to know if the sox are keeping up. But they did not just sit on their hands and ignore it, so he does deserve some credit. But, when teams are supplying the same major league resources across their minors, we would see it impact the performance of the sox players in the minors if they didn't adjust. So to some extent the positive regression we are seeing in places like Birmingham, and anecdotal notes on Rutherfords video consumption in Fegans latest piece, are showing an org at least close to giving the prospects what they need. There is also just a sample issue here on the AZL that I've often come back to with whether the sox can develop young talent: they haven't really tried. so their notable mistakes are more notable because they are the only examples.

I'd mention Collins OBP in the minors, but I'm afraid that might be too much of a "new age" statistic for you and you will get all worked up again

I know Palka has looked terrible, but give him a chance to get it together before sending him to the trash heap. The people on here give up on player so quickly and seem to have no memory at all. On another thread, I said this same thing about Lopez. Yes, the guy is really struggling, but give the guy some time to pull it together. Does nobody remember last year with Lopez? It was just last year?? Well, the same logic with Palka. He hit 27 home runs last year, just last year. Three pinch hit home runs. He was the only guy who seemed to be at all clutch last year when nobody else was ever being clutch. I know you can't wait forever for him to pull it together, but give him more than a week and what, 12 or so at bats? We are in such a hurry to dump one player and go on to the next guy on this board.

The sad thing is is that he is taking ABs away from Collins. And that is totally unacceptable and embarrassing.

Sorry I'm human. I never pretended to know everything. I have my opinions on individual players and the rebuild/tank job like everybody else. So excuuuuuuuussssssseeeee meeeee.

People here are indeed quick to give up on players. Check out the Moncada thread, but Lopez always had question marks on his ability to stick as a starter. Turning him into a reliever is not giving up on him, it‘s trying to maximize his value. Plenty of failed starters turned into lights out relievers.

I really don't understand the hate for Lopez. You people give up on these players way too easily. He was the best pitcher on staff last year. He has it in him. Dude is going through a rut. Let him work it out during this next half. He said to reporters today that we will see a different pitcher out of him during the second half. Lets see what happens

Palka? Really man. Ship has sailed on him

I think you touched on the point that bothers most of us- it’s that the trade was for James Shields. Now most of us will admit that there isn’t even one person on these boards smart enough to be a GM- everyone here would be an absolute disaster. But shit, I’m actually as close to 100% confident as I can be that not one of us would have traded for James Shields for anything more than taking on his salary. He was getting bombed. There was no upside. It was obvious he sucked. It it led us here. To this beautiful rebuild full of talent that will make everyone forget Tatis. “Where’s he gonna play?”

They are related. The original signing created a relationship with the tatis family that Paddy was able to use to sign two additional prospects. Bloodlines are often a plus in projecting 16 year olds.

Sickening. All things considered, including the fact the Sox play in an awful division, it has been an embarrassing decade. No doubt the Sox need a new owner with deep pockets and new front office and new instructors. Our organization is truly one of the worst in baseball. It's be OK with me to fire all of them except Hahn. Get rid of KW. Hahn of course gets a lifetime pass IMO cause of Eloy and the fact he's not truly in charge. KW and Jerry obviously have a huge say in roster.

Actually modern fans do care. These results are exactly why they wanted the rebuild. Going for it every season was clearly not working. These 10 year results are only partially during the rebuild. Also you mentioned Burger is a reason you don't like the draft... if we had lost a couple more games we could've had a better pick and not had to take Burger who was a clear step down from everybody chosen before him.

Jose Quintana would like to have a word with you

Priceless and like clockwork. And since when is chewing tobacco illegal in Chicago?