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Good coaches can be found on bad teams. You're only as good as the talent. Bill Belicheck was a terrible coach in Cleveland before he became one of the best ever.

I guess you could say Tony wasn't a very good manager. Who would have thought?

Yup! Not sure why we are pulling so many resources from one of the worst teams over the past 7 years. Just my opinion!

I will trust Pedro and his coaches until they prove that trust to be undeserved. It's simply a lot more fun to have a positive attitude than b**** and moan all day long.

I just know in my career that I’ve worked with smart / talented people who routinely need a push to give their best. Moncada comes off as that type of player and I think Sleepy Tony La Russa’s management style was the worst possible fit for someone like Yoan. IMO, hiring Grifor will help Moncada more than any player on the roster. He gets who Moncada is based on his “need to get him back to walking 80 times a year” comment. Yoan will never be a perfect player, but if we can turn him back into an OBP machine who provides plus defense at 3B he will be a 4 win player.

Maybe it’s all just PR fluff, but I like that Pedro is going out of his way to endear himself to fans and players alike. Maybe they realised how bad TLR turned everyone off and it’s more for those reasons, but I still like the effort.

I don't know if this s%*# gonna work out. But this dude has said the right things and has the right mentality. Let's let him work before judgement is passed soxtalk

Gotta make room for Aaron Judge

People can't ever seem to separate what someone might think the Sox WILL do, and what they think the Sox SHOULD do...two very different things. They have a hole at 2B, the new manager and hitting coach are coming from the Royals, and Merrifield has traditionally killed the Sox. The Sox have had an illustrious history of grabbing players past their prime that gave them fits 4 years ago. I don't think it's a stretch. I didn't say I would endorse it.

That's going to happen when you sell out for power. You're going to be a bad hitter.

I was watching something yesterwith Jon Greeberg from the Athletic. He interviewed Cairo, and Cairo told him Tony didn't ask his coaches for any opinions. Cairo said they would give them to him anyway, but Tony always did his own thing.

See that’s where it seems we’re interpreting things differently. I don’t see anyone saying that Yoan or any of these guys will magically be fixed by a Spanish speaking manager. It’s more of, this team and its players have so many issues and so many things that need to be improved upon, they need all the help they can get. And having a manager that (in theory) can communicate better with them should only help. How much? Who knows, but I think Grifol proving leadership as a Latino would, at worst, make no difference. But at best, could facilitate better communication, a better culture and clubhouse, and ultimately better performance.

A new manager and coaches being able to create a culture of playing to the max is the only way we can expect a championship type team next year. Money already allotted to many underperforming players keeps us from the flexibility to go outside and acquire much help. Pedros remarks about looking over at the White Sox players at 7:10 pm on gameday was how he knew which team the Royals would be playing that night...very telling IMO.

That management could understand its employees being a bad thing is such an odd take.

Unless his approach is straight bunting he’s already a better hire than what we’ve had here in the past

Although he wasn’t the full hitting coach, the overall Royals launch angle the last 2 years has been 12.8 degrees; very consistent year to year and in the middle of the pack. The White Sox have had one of the lowest launch angles in baseball consistently over the entire statcast era and across two hitting coaches, so this is a statistic I hope to see change.

All right, I've been wanting to do this for a while and it's Friday afternoon. Let's make an assumption and do some math here - imagine that the White Sox had no injuries, and that their list of guys had full seasons. What happens if I scale up everyone's WAR up to 150 games for the starters, 33-34 starts for the starters, and 60-70 appearances for the relievers (70 for Hendriks, 60 for the non closers). War Actual WAR healthy Luis Robert 2.1 5.0 Eloy Jimenez 1.7 3.0 Tim Anderson 2.0 3.8 Yoan Moncada 0.9 1.3 AJ Pollock 0.5 0.6 Yasmani Grandal -0.4 -0.6 Andrew Vaughn -0.4 -0.5 Leury Garcia -1.1 -1.2 Danny Mendick 0.8 2.0 Lance Lynn 1.9 3.0 Lucas Giolito 1.8 2.0 Michael Kopech 1.0 1.2 Joe Kelly 0.5 0.7 Aaron Bummer 0.3 0.6 Liam Hendriks 1.6 2.0 13.2 22.9 Ok, I even did something realistic here. Robert was a 3 WAR player before the wrist injury, they made him a 2 WAR player by playing him through an injury very, very stupidly. Had they not done that he would have been a 3 WAR player, and he was on pace to be a 5 WAR player, so that one is a little more of an estimate than some. Kopech, on the other hand, I gave him a little more for injury, but he wasn't conditioned to pitch 200 innings so going any higher than that isn't really fair. I was also a little optimistic with Mendick, as you can't really project him up to 600 PAs when he was a backup, but a 2 win season is pretty good for im. That's 9.7 WAR. How terrible! If the White Sox got all that back, surely they would catch the Guardians, right? Well, there's one thing we haven't counted. The replacements the White Sox had for some of these guys were literal saviors. Here's actual WAR from Fangraphs for guys who stepped in for replacement starts and/or only got onto the roster because of injuries. Elvis Andrus 2 Seby Zavala 1.9 Johnny Cueto 2.4 Jimmy Lambert 0.3 Davis Martin 0.6 7.2 If we're going straight off of "What were they doing this year", the guys they brought in made up a ton of their performance. Frankly, Andrus outproduced what Anderson would have done during that short stint, Zavala was the most effective catcher on the Sox this year, and Cueto cleared Keuchel off their roster and kept Velasquez out of the rotation, which was a substantial upgrade. Based solely on what they were doing this year, the White Sox lost 9.7 WAR, but they got 7.2 WAR back from their replacements. That is...not a lot of loss to injury compared to a 10 game difference. But, there's one other version of this. What if injuries were the reason that Moncada, Grandal, Giolito, and Lynn were so ineffective? Lynn was a 4.2 WAR player in 2021, Moncada was a 4 WAR player, Giolito was a 4.1 WAR player. That's an extra 1.2 WAR for Lynn, 2.1 WAR for Giolito, 2.7 WAR for Moncada, and of course, 4.2 WAR for Grandal. THAT last line is the difference maker - how do you count that? That's an extra 10 WAR if you could get those guys back to what they were beforehand, but they were mostly already present. If all of those guys were 100% as effective as they were previously, and all their other guys stay healthy, that's what it would take to make up the ground against Cleveland last year. What does that mean for next year? Well, if "Everything goes right", they could be up with where Cleveland was this year. But, can Grandal suddenly become a 4 WAR player again? That seems, like the most problematic part of this. Furthermore, they're also, so far, without Abreu and Cueto. That means, they need something to make up for that - Vaughn being better, Colas being better than Vaughn in the OF, Kopech being better, and adding in another OF - if all that happens, they've made up the ground against Cleveland. A few other things could be better - Robert still could be better than that, Eloy could still be better than that, Martin could be better than that, Vaughn should hopefully improve. But boy, have I had to say "a lot of stuff had to go right" over and over again. A lot of those things that were down compared to 2021 - Moncada, Giolito, Grandal, Lynn, Vaughn's lack of development - all those need to be fixed this offseason. How much of that can be fixed by a managerial swap?

Oh I totally agree. That’s the one position where we have enough depth to say heck with it, go with what we have. It would be nice to have enough money to go for Turner there, but it’s just not practical. There’s a good chance we get enough from some combination of kids, and if we don’t, that is unlikely to make or break the season.

I think people need to be more careful with Andrus. He was amazing for the White Sox and there’s nothing in his profile that suggests he will ever have another 2 month stretch like that, let alone a full season.

At the very least it has to be balanced. If Tim Anderson is really good at making contact and going the other way, let him keep doing that. But guys like Eloy, Vaughn, big strong slow guys, they should not be trying to go the other way on the ground very often. They cannot make careers out of beating throws to first or running on the base paths.

He did objectively lead the Sox to having the highest batting average in the league. That emphasis is literally what made him a failure.

Why not just keep Josh Harrison at that point? Either go young or do something big like Vaughn+ for Jazz.

Just what we need. More poor fits.

I know a high school coach who has won many state championships. If you were to watch his practices and the manner of talking, motivating, and kicking butt...you would know his team goes all out each and every day. Some coaches can get the most out of their athletes. Others...not so much.

Oscar is one the few things we have to look forward to along with the new field general. God forbid if Colas and Luis play like stars next year.

wRC+ and wOBA I like, and I wonder how sacrificing power at 3B is sustainable if a team continues to struggle. Be that as it may, yeah walks. Pedro will be setting the energy example personally. That does seem to be the exact overall theme the team needs. They did show a different level of play when they realized the season was slipping away for sure. And then fell off a cliff when the math got impossible. Focus is a lot.

I think people feel Moncada will revert closer to form because he’ll be playing for a manager with a pulse who will actually push him to give his all everyday.

People seem to want to assume that Moncada is going to revert to playing the way he did a number of years ago because Pedro speaks Spanish to him. Eloy is gonna stop crashing into Robert or something. Or Abreu will do something even more awesome. Or they have a championship roster, but just were failed by the manager. Or that Spanish speaking players aren't motivated by non Latino managers,. Tony failed because he let the players do whatever they wanted, and they weren't expected to hit the cutoff man. And the players themselves failed for whatever reasons. Probably overrrated. It may surprise this discussion, but MLB is filled with Latinos excelling under non Latino leadership.

Then I guess I’m misunderstanding your point. That it is good, but also doesn’t make any difference?

I don’t know that anyone’s saying the Sox made the hire based on his ability to speak Spanish, or even that they need someone that speaks Spanish in order to get the most out of some players. But how can it possibly be seen as anything other than a good thing that he speaks the native language of a significant amount of players on the team?

This. Being upset that an org is concerned about connecting to half the player population is certainly a curious take.

I got an email from “Portillo’s Hot Dogs” this morning and my first thought was a White Sox source was giving me some insider info.

Good article on Tosars work. https://www.sportsmockery.com/chicago-white-sox/white-sox-to-replace-frank-menechino-with-mike-tosar/

While there is some merit to each of these points, it’s not as dire of a situation as you’re presenting. Here’s what needs to happen this offseason to make the Sox a playoff team in 2023: Hire a manager who will demand a strong effort every day and who will not adhere to outdated, old-school baseball tendencies - COMPLETE Hire a hitting coach who will install a hitting philosophy centered around power & OBP and not just contact - COMPLETE Continue to modernize the training and strength & conditions staffs - SOUNDS LIKE THERE ARE PLANS FOR THIS BASED ON WHAT HAHN WAS WHISPERING TO GRIFOL DURING PRESS CONFERENCE Develop & execute off-seasoning training plans for all players - CAN ACTUALLY HAPPEN NOW WITHOUT LOCKOUT & WILL HAPPEN PER GRIFOL Stop playing 1B/DH types in the OF - HAHN CONFIRMED WILL HAPPEN Improve the lineup’s balance with LH hitters who can hit quality RHP - TBD Add a legit SP to the major rotation and find some pitching depth for AAA - TBD Of the seven off-season priorities, two are complete and three more appear to be happening. For the first time in forever, I actually feel like what’s needed to get the most out of this existing roster will be in place. The big questions are will Jerry spend the money to fill our remaining holes with quality options and is Hahn actually capable of identifying & procuring the right talent. Both of those remain to the he seen and are reasons for pessimism given their track records. But that being said, I think we’re going to see much better performance out of the guys we already have. The negative impact that Tony had on our team last year can not be understated.

I'll just post this here. It's from my post "The White Sox Cannot Be Fixed By Next Season" ****** Let me jump back in my own topic to break it down a bit further. CAN'T STAY HEALTHY Batters C - Grandal SS - Anderson 3B - Moncada CF - Robert LF/DH - Jimenez Burger (AAA/Majors) Mendick Pitchers SP - Kopech SP - Lynn RP - Bummer RP - Foster RP - Velasquez RP - Kelly APPEARED ON IL IN 2022 LF/CF - Pollock LF/RF/1B/DH Vaughn CF - Engel RP - Hendriks CAN'T HIT LEFT HANDED (or hit RIGHT HANDERS) Moncada Grandal Pollock Most of the rest of the right handers CAN'T FIELD Vaughn (OF) Sheets (OF) Jimenez (Anywhere) Anderson (SS) Grandal (C) -- can't hold baserunners Zavala (C) -- is he better this year? He was bad last year. HAS AN ALBATROSS CONTRACT 3B - Moncada C - Grandal (for 2023) LF - Pollock (player option) Util - Garcia IS BELOW LEAGUE AVERAGE SP - Giolito SP/RP - Velasquez RP - Ruiz RP - Kelly RP - Diekman 2B - Harrison LF - Pollock 3B - Moncada C - Grandal CF - Engel 2B - Gonzalez Util - Garcia The ONLY players who are above league average and who play every time they are called on are: Jose Abreu, who is a free agent Dylan Cease Johnny Cueto, who is also a free agent Davis Martin (barely above with 106 ERA+) Kendall Graveman Reynaldo Lopez Jimmy Lambert Not sure you can build your team around 7 guys, 2 of whom are free agents.

Unfortunately I don’t think this roster construction is a World Series caliber team.

LOL. I love how different the white sox is in national writers heads vs. fans. We are more correct with zero info.

Then they have to trade Vaughn. It makes zero sense to have both on this roster. Utilize his value to fill another hole.

They've got 4 minimum salary guys they can play at 2b. All are reasonably well regarded in the minors. Plenty of good teams let young players play even if they struggle some. The Astros do it, the Phillies do it, and the Sox...sign Josh Harrison to get that proven production. 2B is really down on the list of trouble spots (catcher, OF, SP, e.g.)

Exactly, and if we are going to recapture the division every single game will matter so Oscar...come on up.

He should. Not many teams are playing service time games anymore And a team that's supposed to be a contender absolutely shouldn't be playing those games any way. He's a good fielder . He left handed he hits for power. I thought he should've been up at the end of last year to get acclimated to RF at home and to get some experience in a pennant race. Other's disagreed siting service time of course. Backwards thinking. It's better he get some growing pains out of the way in a season that was going down the tubes or at worst desperately needed defensive and offensive help from the left side and in RF. So the Sox either feel he wasn't ready or they wanted to wait til May w/e it is to get as much time from him as possible while sacrificing wins . If you want guys to have 150 game seasons it's best to call them up and let them play and contribute as soon as they can. He's already 24 why f*** with him? He's already lost too much much developmental time to going from Cuba to Japan and to the US. It's fairly amazing he got his act together in one year in the states. He deserves a reward not more " I own and want to make sure I own you as long as possible" BS.

Excuses are like .............. Good front offices / ownership make trades, acquire talent, to make-up for injuries when they are in the hunt, which given our division we were ... ours did nothing, because they suck