White Sox looking to deal Robertson

[steveno89]

And that right there is one of the many reasons why you could never be a GM.

 

Totally agree

 

That is like judging a pitcher solely on wins and ERA...

 

 

[ChiSox59]

pretty sure those are the first two stats i'm looking at if i need a closer bruh.

 

This is cute.

[shipps]

Saves and ERA isnt a bad thing to look at though, you just have much more to take into account as well. You guys are being jerks about it.

 

 

[ChiSox59]

Saves and ERA isnt a bad thing to look at though, you just have much more to take into account as well. You guys are being jerks about it.

 

Saves are pretty irrelevant. That has much more to do with how good of a team you're on. Save % is probably a better metric to look at.

 

Saves, and ERA would definitely be factors, but not the main criteria is analyzing a closer. FIP, as has been mentioned probably is the best. K/9, WHIP, and BB/9 are pretty important for closers as well.

[shipps]

Saves are pretty irrelevant. That has much more to do with how good of a team you're on. Save % is probably a better metric to look at.

 

Saves, and ERA would definitely be factors, but not the main criteria is analyzing a closer. FIP, as has been mentioned probably is the best. K/9, WHIP, and BB/9 are pretty important for closers as well.

 

Yeah, thanks for that. This would have been a good response to peppers post. Just saying.

[peppers312]

so if you're not looking at what a closer has already done, it seems like everyone's rationale is this how you evaluate a closer...

 

1. FIP

2. WHIP

3. K/9

4. BB/9

4. Saves

5. ERA

 

??

Edited December 8, 2016 by peppers312

[Black_Jack29]

Really?! FIP is a far better stat than ERA to begin with as it takes fielding out of the picture

 

WHIP is also really important

 

I would look at those before saves and ERA which can be skewed and don't tell me much about performance

 

WHIP seems to have fallen out of favor in recent years, and I think that's unfortunate.

 

[almagest]

so if you're not looking at what a closer has already done, it seems like everyone's rationale is this how you evaluate a closer...

 

1. FIP

2. WHIP

3. K/9

4. BB/9

4. Saves

5. ERA

 

??

FIP is better than ERA for pitchers in general because it takes crappy defensive plays out of the mix entirely. High WHIP usually correlates with high ERA/FIP but not always. It's always a warning sign though that the pitcher was lucky to escape situations without blowing a save. Walks and strikeouts per 9 is also just good for every pitcher. A guy with a high ERA but high K/9 and low BB/9 is a good candidate for a "rebound" season. Saves are like wins for SP - somewhat in the pitcher's control but mostly not, especially because a blown save can happen before the 9th.

[Whisox05]

Most underrated move of meetings: #WhiteSox decision not to put David Robertson in Eaton deal. His value just shot up with Chapman contract.

https://twitter.com/BNightengale/status/806990136995180544

[HeGone7]

so if you're not looking at what a closer has already done, it seems like everyone's rationale is this how you evaluate a closer...

 

1. FIP

2. WHIP

3. K/9

4. BB/9

4. Saves

5. ERA

 

??

 

I'd flip saves and ERA. K/9 I'd leave. BB/9 ties into your WHIP so that can drop as well.

 

Saves are obviously the old school way of saying who shut the door. But it requires equal opportunities. Cubs won 100+ games but blew teams out a lot. Does that make Chapman less valuable than someone who had more?

 

It doesn't tell the story about the pitcher.

 

FIP at least tries to isolate things down to an even playing field, where bad defense from one team to another isn't hindering an ERA.

 

In saying that, casual fans will always look for saves. The same way they look at wins/losses. It's just much more evolved now if you want a true individual performance gauge.

 

 

[bighurt574]

The other problem with ERA and closers is that with only ~60-70 innings pitched, one bad outing or two (perhaps aided by shoddy fielding) can really inflate the thing.

 

With a starter, if you get rocked over say 3 innings, you can largely work that off with a few quality starts. As a closer, you may need a few months.

[SCCWS]

Saves and ERA are bad way to look at a reliever, I agree

 

Peripheral stats like WHIP , hits, k's, walks, FIP all need to be considered

 

Nate Jones is certainly a guy that could have trade value as either a closer or set up man

 

He had a really good season and could be a sell high candidate

 

I think Jones is a very good set-up man. But for his career he has 3 saves and 18 blown saves. Now as some have noted, saves can be a misleading statistic. But saves versus blown saves may be telling. There are certain relief pictures who can be great set-up men but wilt when they come in w the game on the line. Jones may be in that category.

[GGajewski18]

I think Jones is a very good set-up man. But for his career he has 3 saves and 18 blown saves. Now as some have noted, saves can be a misleading statistic. But saves versus blown saves may be telling. There are certain relief pictures who can be great set-up men but wilt when they come in w the game on the line. Jones may be in that category.

 

Jones gets a blown save if he allows the tying run in the 8th or inning before the last.

[Chicago White Sox]

I think Jones is a very good set-up man. But for his career he has 3 saves and 18 blown saves. Now as some have noted, saves can be a misleading statistic. But saves versus blown saves may be telling. There are certain relief pictures who can be great set-up men but wilt when they come in w the game on the line. Jones may be in that category.

I think you need revisit the definition of "blown save".

[Dick Allen]

I think you need revisit the definition of "blown save".

Yes. In 2014 Wade Davis had an ERA of 1.00. His WHIP was 0.85. He struck out 109 in 72 innings, and he had 3 saves and 3 blown saves. Using that stat for set up guys is crazy.

[SCCWS]

Jones gets a blown save if he allows the tying run in the 8th or inning before the last.

Yes but Jones also has closed in his career. He has closed 40+ games. But he only was given 3 saves in those 40+ games. In comparison, Robertson in 300 more appearances has 29 blown saves. I don't see someone gambling Jones is a closer and giving him $12 Mil type money

[Jake]

If you want to look at blown saves for a non-closer, you also need to look at holds. Holds+saves/blown saves is roughly comparable to save percentage. With that said, setup guys are often asked to come into more challenging situations and to pitch multiple innings more often, giving them more chances to "blow" the save opportunity that they never had a chance to finish.

[Dick Allen]

Nate Jones has entered a game in the 9th inning and blown a save exactly zero times in his career.

[Balta1701]

One thing I actually do find interesting about Jones's Blown Save stat is that 1/2 of them in his career happened last year, in 2016 he has 9 blown saves.

 

Compared to the rest of his career, his 2016 peripherals aren't bad. His K rate is normal, maybe even a bit high. His walk rate was the lowest of his career. His extra base hit rate was the best of his career. However, his home run rate spiked.

 

From those numbers, I look at Jones and wonder if he wasn't slightly unlucky last year - a few extra HR and a few well placed hits cost him a lot of games and maybe even inflated his ERA a bit. With him blowing 9 saves, I can make a decent case that if he does the same thing next year (or if he's even slightly stronger being farther removed from TJS) he could look even better in 2017.

[Jose Abreu]

Nate Jones has entered a game in the 9th inning and blown a save exactly zero times in his career.

/argument

[Dick Allen]

One thing I actually do find interesting about Jones's Blown Save stat is that 1/2 of them in his career happened last year, in 2016 he has 9 blown saves.

 

Compared to the rest of his career, his 2016 peripherals aren't bad. His K rate is normal, maybe even a bit high. His walk rate was the lowest of his career. His extra base hit rate was the best of his career. However, his home run rate spiked.

 

From those numbers, I look at Jones and wonder if he wasn't slightly unlucky last year - a few extra HR and a few well placed hits cost him a lot of games and maybe even inflated his ERA a bit. With him blowing 9 saves, I can make a decent case that if he does the same thing next year (or if he's even slightly stronger being farther removed from TJS) he could look even better in 2017.

Unlucky is probably accurate. 71 games pitched. 13 games he gave up runs. 9 of the 13 he gave up 1 run, and had 9 BS.

 

The opposition had a hard time hitting him. The last month it was silly.

[bmags]

It was easy for me to imagine Q, Eatons and Sales offers, but the Robertson /Jones traded are where our scouts will make their money

[Panerista]

It was easy for me to imagine Q, Eatons and Sales offers, but the Robertson /Jones traded are where our scouts will make their money

Eaton drew more than I expected, but I will agree the key is the lesser pieces.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Unlucky is probably accurate. 71 games pitched. 13 games he gave up runs. 9 of the 13 he gave up 1 run, and had 9 BS.

 

The opposition had a hard time hitting him. The last month it was silly.

 

 

Righties hit Nate Jones to the tune of a .476 OPS last year. Jones had a great season.

[caulfield12]

As we all know, Hahn adoration lasted until around mid-May, 2015...when Eaton and Cabrera were looking liked they'd never played the game of baseball before.

 

He and AJ Preller of the Padres "won" that offseason, along with the Red Sox.

 

Last year, you had Frazier and then a ton of "small/under the radar" moves that looked like they could POSSIBLY work if everything went exactly right (which of course, it didn't, starting with DrakeGate).

 

This time, we're not going to be able to start drawing many conclusions until around mid-season, 2018.