The TLR Manager Thread

[ron883]

1 minute ago, wegner said:

I thought this thread was locked?

Was there an appeal?

I'm so confused.

I talked it out with Jason and managed to get it unlocked

[Green Line]

13 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said:

What has he done well?

Manage the starters? Not really. Even though they've been great.

 

Can you expand upon this and explain how he should be managing the starters in a different way and what about it you don't like?  Obviously success of the starters is not a factor in determining this category as you stated.

[Paulie4Pres]

1 hour ago, Green Line said:

Can you expand upon this and explain how he should be managing the starters in a different way and what about it you don't like?  Obviously success of the starters is not a factor in determining this category as you stated.

I mean, multiple times he has left his starter in too long.... It's really not all that difficult to know when to pull a starter. Especially when they are over 100 pitches.

He does nothing well. He's a fucking caricature, who routinely gets in the way of the team's success. Sox would be better if he just napped all game.

[Green Line]

7 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said:

He does nothing well. He's a fucking caricature, who routinely gets in the way of the team's success. Sox would be better if he just napped all game.

Ahh.  Clearly separating out the threads has worked to turn this toward a reasoned, sensible discussion.  lol.

[Paulie4Pres]

8 minutes ago, Green Line said:

Ahh.  Clearly separating out the threads has worked to turn this toward a reasoned, sensible discussion.  lol.

So you don't have an answer?

I'm discussing his strengths and weaknesses.

He's doing nothing well, and I haven't seen a single one of his supporters cite anything but "he's a hall of fame baseball person".

[Green Line]

2 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said:

So you don't have an answer?

I'm discussing his strengths and weaknesses.

He's doing nothing well, and I haven't seen a single one of his supporters cite anything but "he's a hall of fame baseball person".

Well, for the managing that starters part - I can think of one time he didn't pull Giolito when he should have.  Not enough in my book to give him a demerit, especially when the rotation is pitching so great (even though that is apparently irrelevant to you, its not to me).

I think he's managed the bullpen poorly in some cases, but I've never seen a Sox manager in my lifetime that I thought did a good job there, I don't think most fans of any team are usually happy with their bullpen management.  When bullpen moves blow up in your face, every fan remembers it.  When things go fine, nobody says boo.

I have no complaint with his lineups whatsoever.  Especially now that Robert and Eloy are both gone.  He's playing the players who he has.

At the end of the day, he will be judged by the team's success.  If they do well and make a deep run in the playoffs, I'll say he did a good job managing the team.  If not, hopefully he won't be brought back.  I'm not in the clubhouse so I can't really say what strengths he is bringing to the table.  You're not there so you can't either, you can only critique his moves from the couch.  And to be clear, bullpen management and pinch hitting are two areas I've found myself in disagreement with.

[Paulie4Pres]

1 minute ago, Green Line said:

Well, for the managing that starters part - I can think of one time he didn't pull Giolito when he should have.  Not enough in my book to give him a demerit, especially when the rotation is pitching so great (even though that is apparently irrelevant to you, its not to me).

I think he's managed the bullpen poorly in some cases, but I've never seen a Sox manager in my lifetime that I thought did a good job there, I don't think most fans of any team are usually happy with their bullpen management.  When bullpen moves blow up in your face, every fan remembers it.  When things go fine, nobody says boo.

I have no complaint with his lineups whatsoever.  Especially now that Robert and Eloy are both gone.  He's playing the players who he has.

At the end of the day, he will be judged by the team's success.  If they do well and make a deep run in the playoffs, I'll say he did a good job managing the team.  If not, hopefully he won't be brought back.  I'm not in the clubhouse so I can't really say what strengths he is bringing to the table.  You're not there so you can't either, you can only critique his moves from the couch.  And to be clear, bullpen management and pinch hitting are two areas I've found myself in disagreement with.

The fact that the Sox are one of the worst shifting teams in the major league? The fact that they lead the majors in sacrifice bunts? 

There aren't a lot of things a manager can impact during a game. The things he can impact, he is having a negative impact on. And there's no debating that. He's been a bad manager to this point in the season. With some glaringly bad mistakes.

[Tony]

31 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said:

The fact that the Sox are one of the worst shifting teams in the major league? The fact that they lead the majors in sacrifice bunts? 

There aren't a lot of things a manager can impact during a game. The things he can impact, he is having a negative impact on. And there's no debating that. He's been a bad manager to this point in the season. With some glaringly bad mistakes.

It’s hilarious that’s the best the LaRussa stans can do. They spend more time complaining about posters who are picking on LaRussa than the posters who are actually calling out LaRussa. And when you challenge them on “Why do you like LaRussa, what has he done well?” The answer is “I mean, I can’t really point to anything specific, but if this team wins, he’ll have done great. If they lose in the playoffs, I hope he’s gone.” Just a ringing endorsement for someone they spend hours a day defending.
 

And again...I’ll point out just because: 

2021: 47 games...28 -19

2020: 47 games...31-16

[chw42]

39 minutes ago, Paulie4Pres said:

The fact that the Sox are one of the worst shifting teams in the major league? The fact that they lead the majors in sacrifice bunts? 

There aren't a lot of things a manager can impact during a game. The things he can impact, he is having a negative impact on. And there's no debating that. He's been a bad manager to this point in the season. With some glaringly bad mistakes.

I've always thought the Sox have been behind the times in terms of sabermetrics. I thought we had made some progress last year, but now we're back in the stone age in terms of shifting and sac bunts. 

[Green Line]

13 minutes ago, Tony said:

It’s hilarious that’s the best the LaRussa stans can do. They spend more time complaining about posters who are picking on LaRussa than the posters who are actually calling out LaRussa. And when you challenge them on “Why do you like LaRussa, what has he done well?” The answer is “I mean, I can’t really point to anything specific, but if this team wins, he’ll have done great. If they lose in the playoffs, I hope he’s gone.” Just a ringing endorsement for someone they spend hours a day defending.
 

And again...I’ll point out just because: 

2021: 47 games...28 -19

2020: 47 games...31-16

What are you going to do when we're past game 60 and this gimmick doesn't apply anymore?

When things are going poorly everybody blames the manager and when things go well nobody ever thinks to give the manager credit.  Thats just the way professional sports work.  Like I said nobody knows what is going on inside the clubhouse so we have no idea what Tony is bringing to the table.  We only have decades of experience pointing to his success to fall back on.

[Tony]

7 minutes ago, Green Line said:

What are you going to do when we're past game 60 and this gimmick doesn't apply anymore?

When things are going poorly everybody blames the manager and when things go well nobody ever thinks to give the manager credit.  Thats just the way professional sports work.  Like I said nobody knows what is going on inside the clubhouse so we have no idea what Tony is bringing to the table.  We only have decades of experience pointing to his success to fall back on.

Except some of us actually watch the games and understand what we’re seeing, and know the mistakes that are being made. Like some of the mistakes Tony has admitted postgame!

But feel free to keep living on what LaRussa did in 1989 to guide your thoughts on the type of manager he is in 2021. 

You’re trolling just to troll at this point. You have no argument other than “People are being mean to LaRussa, I need to defend him!” 
 

🤡

[Chicago White Sox]

Just now, Green Line said:

What are you going to do when we're past game 60 and this gimmick doesn't apply anymore?

When things are going poorly everybody blames the manager and when things go well nobody ever thinks to give the manager credit.  Thats just the way professional sports work.  Like I said nobody knows what is going on inside the clubhouse so we have no idea what Tony is bringing to the table.  We only have decades of experience pointing to his success to fall back on.

This is just straight up dumb.  We all watch the games and can point to numerous things Tony has done wrong this year.  We don’t need to be in the clubhouse to witness poor in-game decision making.  Also, there have been reports of some clubhouse tension as result of Tony beyond the public ripping of a top rookie.  You keep using “decades of experience” as a free pass for him to whatever he wants and it being ok, which is also incredibly dumb given how much the game has changed since he last managed.  Tony La Russa is objectively a bad manager at this stage of his career.  Unless you can cite some actual good things he’s done, then please stop defending him because your current defense is quite embarrassing.

[Green Line]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

This is just straight up dumb.  We all watch the games and can point to numerous things Tony has done wrong this year.  We don’t need to be in the clubhouse to witness poor in-game decision making.  Also, there have been reports of some clubhouse tension as result of Tony beyond the public ripping of a top rookie.  You keep using “decades of experience” as a free pass for him to whatever he wants and it being ok, which is also incredibly dumb given how much the game has changed since he last managed.  Tony La Russa is objectively a bad manager at this stage of his career.  Unless you can cite some actual good things he’s done, then please stop defending him because your current defense is quite embarrassing.

Why are you calling me dumb when you're not comprehending what I'm saying?  I'm not denying the mistakes made that we can all see plain as day, such as not knowing the extra innings rule (even though nobody else knew it either).  I'm simply saying that with regards to what he does WELL, we don't know because with most managers you don't see that stuff manifest itself on the field, it happens in the locker room!  Thats the whole point - we all witness the mistakes but we don't witness the positive aspects because its impossible to know from a fan perspective.  We can only rely on the results.  So simple.

[Paulie4Pres]

15 minutes ago, Green Line said:

What are you going to do when we're past game 60 and this gimmick doesn't apply anymore?

When things are going poorly everybody blames the manager and when things go well nobody ever thinks to give the manager credit.  Thats just the way professional sports work.  Like I said nobody knows what is going on inside the clubhouse so we have no idea what Tony is bringing to the table.  We only have decades of experience pointing to his success to fall back on.

 

Actually, it's very easy to see what's going on with in-game decisions. Baseball is a very transparent, cut and dry sport. Analytics has taken most of the "gut feeling" decisions out of the mix. The correct decision at any point is apparent to most people that are paying attention and have access to the internet. And yet....

There's a reason managers don't get a lot of credit in baseball. They don't have much of an impact on wins. Their good decisions are more or less common sense. Their bad decisions are very easily exposed, and have a big impact on the game. Baseball is very much a numbers game now, and if you're making decisions that are counterintuitive to the numbers, you're doing it wrong.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Paulie4Pres

[Green Line]

Just now, Paulie4Pres said:

 

Actually, it's very easy to see what's going on with in-game decisions. Baseball is a very transparent, cut and dry sport. Analytics has taken most of the "gut feeling" decisions out of the mix. The correct decision at any point is apparent to most people that are paying attention and have access to the internet. And yet....

There's a reason managers don't get a lot of credit in baseball. They don't have much of an impact on wins. Their good decisions are more or less common sense. Their bad decisions are very easily exposed, and have a big impact on the game. Baseball is very much a numbers game now, and if you're making decisions that are counterintuitive to the numbers, you're doing it wrong.

  

 

  

I don't agree with this.  If that was the case anybody could be a manager.  They would just hire some data analytics nerd to sit in the dugout.  Its obviously much more complex than that.

[tray]

 

Look at the batting averages of our outfielders and catchers.  Our bullpen has been spotty.  We have to be happy where we are at in the standings despite player injuries and under-performance.

I credit Tony LaRussa a lot for keeping this team in win mode.

[Paulie4Pres]

4 minutes ago, Green Line said:

I don't agree with this.  If that was the case anybody could be a manager.  They would just hire some data analytics nerd to sit in the dugout.  Its obviously much more complex than that.

That's because you're stuck in the past, just like most of the people running MLB. Those that aren't living in the past are perfectly capable of accepting the fact that a college kid on his laptop, sitting in his dorm room watching the game, could likely manage a baseball team just as well as the dinosaurs sitting in the dugout. In some instances, probably better.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Paulie4Pres

[Green Line]

1 minute ago, Paulie4Pres said:

That's because you're stuck in the past, just like most of the people running MLB. Those that aren't living in the past are perfectly capable of accepting the fact that a college kid on his laptop, sitting in his dorm room watching the game, could likely manage a baseball team just as well as the dinosaurs sitting in the dugout. In some instances, probably better.

Wow, hubris is really a crazy thing.  Hopefully your untested theory can be realized one day.  It won't be pretty, but I'd love to see it.

[tray]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

 Unless you can cite some actual good things he’s done, then please stop defending him because your current defense is quite embarrassing.

Tony bunted Hamilton to third. Sac fly drove him in. Sox won 2-1.

Benetti questioned the move in real time, then said nothing when the run scored and the Sox won because of it.

LaRussa started Lamb against the wishes of many posters. Lamb jacked a home run in the fiirst inning and scored another run.

Tony put Hamilton in to LF for defense and he threw a runner out at home, preserving a Sox win.

You can list any number of good and bad decisions a Manager makes. There are hundreds every week.

Players who defy Managers and show up late for games have to be disciplined.

Ask St. Louis fans what they think of some of Shilton's decisions in the series against the White Sox.

At the end of the day, the anti-LaRussa schtick won't amount to a good gaddamn but it will make you  miserable though if you allow it to.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, Green Line said:

Why are you calling me dumb when you're not comprehending what I'm saying?  I'm not denying the mistakes made that we can all see plain as day, such as not knowing the extra innings rule (even though nobody else knew it either).  I'm simply saying that with regards to what he does WELL, we don't know because with most managers you don't see that stuff manifest itself on the field, it happens in the locker room!  Thats the whole point - we all witness the mistakes but we don't witness the positive aspects because its impossible to know from a fan perspective.  We can only rely on the results.  So simple.

I didn’t call you dumb, I said your argument was dumb.  I fully disagree with the notion we can only evaluate a manager based on results.  We don’t have access to every piece of info they do, but we see enough on a day to day basis to judge them on their decision-making process and not just the outcomes.  As for the clubhouse stuff, that’s admittedly much more challenging to evaluate as a fan.  However, when things aren’t going well in the clubhouse there oftentimes can be tells.  As I said previously, there have been multiple reports of clubhouse tension centered around Tony.  We also saw his team publicly acknowledge they tune him out and at least one player was liking negative comments about him on Twitter.  The odds of Tony magically bringing all this chemistry to the clubhouse despite all that is incredibly low.  Ultimately this is a highly talented roster and we will win a ton of games regardless of who the manager is.  IMO, we are winning in spite of Tony and the evidence of that is clear of day if you actually watch the games and follow the team closely.

[Green Line]

6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I didn’t call you dumb, I said your argument was dumb.  I fully disagree with the notion we can only evaluate a manager based on results.  We don’t have access to every piece of info they do, but we see enough on a day to day basis to judge them on their decision-making process and not just the outcomes.  As for the clubhouse stuff, that’s admittedly much more challenging to evaluate as a fan.  However, when things aren’t going well in the clubhouse there oftentimes can be tells.  As I said previously, there have been multiple reports of clubhouse tension centered around Tony.  We also saw his team publicly acknowledge they tune him out and at least one player was liking negative comments about him on Twitter.  The odds of Tony magically bringing all this chemistry to the clubhouse despite all that is incredibly low.  Ultimately this is a highly talented roster and we will win a ton of games regardless of who the manager is.  IMO, we are winning in spite of Tony and the evidence of that is clear of day if you actually watch the games and follow the team closely.

We can't ONLY evaluate them on results, I didn't say that we could.  I said that when it comes to the good things that he does, that we can really only rely on results for, not the overall evaluation.  I acknowledged that there are in-game decisions that he has made which I disagreed with - but results certainly play a large role in evaluating the performance of a manager.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Green Line

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

41 minutes ago, Green Line said:

What are you going to do when we're past game 60 and this gimmick doesn't apply anymore?

When things are going poorly everybody blames the manager and when things go well nobody ever thinks to give the manager credit.  Thats just the way professional sports work.  Like I said nobody knows what is going on inside the clubhouse so we have no idea what Tony is bringing to the table.  We only have decades of experience pointing to his success to fall back on.

this you?

 

On 9/14/2020 at 11:32 PM, Green Line said:

Stone is 100% correct here.  Renteria has been given a massive gift in this talented team.  They win in spite of his bone headed lineups and bullpen choices.

With that said, there is no way in hell the White Sox, of all teams, are going to fire their manager after a hugely successful season.  The chances of Ricky winning the megamillions is higher than the chance that Jerry fires him.  Stone had best hold his fire until next season.

How about this?

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Green Line]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

this you?

 

 

I was waiting for this to come up actually.  Rick Renteria has literally no track record of winning.  I was saying this last year in the context of him having a good 40-ish game stretch at that point in the season.  I think the sample size for TLR is much, much larger.  I agree that without context though, that looks like a zinger!

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, Green Line said:

I was waiting for this to come up actually.  Rick Renteria has literally no track record of winning.  I was saying this last year in the context of him having a good 40-ish game stretch at that point in the season.  I think the sample size for TLR is much, much larger.  I agree that without context though, that looks like a zinger!

Nah, you were blasting the manager for lineups and bullpen decisions, two things you argue now are completely meaningless with LaRussa in charge. Another hypocritical LaRussa stan. Not that I'm shocked. Good call on Renteria never making the playoffs. Really hit that one out the park?

[GermanSoxFan]

Good thing Ricky can’t hold Tony‘s jockstrap when it comes to managing a clubhouse. Remember the endless controversies and reports about the player‘s growing tired of him?

 

Oh wait…