Offseason Part 2 - Lets the Rumors & Action Begin

[maloney.adam]

7 minutes ago, fathom said:

It’s amazing because Stoney keeps talking about how they have to be smarter and better on defense, yet the defense is worse on paper heading into the year than last season 

They have to fill that hole in RF with a free agent. Now they are going to wait until the deadline, trade more young players for another rental with a bad contract. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by maloney.adam

[fathom]

Just now, maloney.adam said:

Do they see something that we don’t? I mean RF has been a black hole for how many years? I don’t get it.

Sure, way too much confidence in Engel, Robert and Eloy staying healthy and Sheets ability to play in the field.  Wouldn’t shock me at all if they sign someone like Billy Hamilton again.

[Tnetennba]

1 minute ago, maloney.adam said:

Do they see something that we don’t? I mean RF has been a black hole for how many years? I don’t get it.

The same hubris that made them think the team could just turn it on come October?  

[maxjusttyped]

My guess is that by the end of May, either Carlos Perez or random vet waiver claim will be the backup C. I'd be fine with going cheap there if money was spent actually filling holes at 2B, RF, or in the rotation.

[maloney.adam]

I’ve just about had it with how the organization operates when it comes to free agents. The only way this is going to change is when the team is under new ownership and they tear the whole thing down.

Edited March 16, 2022 by maloney.adam

[caulfield12]

10 minutes ago, fathom said:

Given how bad Collins was on defense, it’s a huge issue 

Seby to the rescue (offensively).

What's next this offseason, Yermin Mercedes entering the RF or 2B mix?

[Jose Abreu]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yeah, I'm just not on board with Sheets taking away big league at bats from Vaughn. I just see no world where Sheets is more important to this teams future than Vaughn. I could be wrong, but I think the Sox caught lightening in a bottle with Sheets last year and expecting him to be a productive MLB DH is just too much imo. Vaughn ceiling as an offensive player is just so much higher, and wasting MLB at-bats on Sheets everyday instead of Vaughn would be a mistake imo.

Agreed. I also think people have trouble separating process from results and don't understand how unlucky Vaughn was last year, especially late in the year. To put up league-average results (with underlying metrics to suggest that they should've been slightly better) after skipping AA and AAA and playing new positions all year is incredible. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Vaughn has an all-star caliber year at the plate.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Jose Abreu
spelling

[caulfield12]

12 minutes ago, maxjusttyped said:

My guess is that by the end of May, either Carlos Perez or random vet waiver claim will be the backup C. I'd be fine with going cheap there if money was spent actually filling holes at 2B, RF, or in the rotation.

A rookie catcher as the back-up...?  Well, maybe, but I think that they will give Collins at least through June, if for no other reason than he's LHed and was a former 1st round draft pick that Hostetler claimed he would have taken #1 overall.

(And technically Zavala was still a rookie last year, even though it seems like he's been around longer than Jordan Bohannon.)

Edited March 16, 2022 by caulfield12

[Jose Abreu]

6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Seby to the rescue (offensively).

 What's next this offseason, Yermin Mercedes entering the RF or 2B mix?

I think you're joking but even on offense, Seby was much worse than Collins last year. The 3 homer game is all anyone remembers though.

 

I think they'll trade for a backup catcher in the coming weeks

[maloney.adam]

This is ridiculous and a joke. Does anyone inside the organization or outside the organization have any pull with Jerry other than TLR, to tell him that the time is NOW to spend the money on FA’s and to not wait until the deadline to trade away more of their young players?!?! FFS! Sorry about my rant. I’m just really mad right now. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by maloney.adam

[KBX]

22 minutes ago, fathom said:

It’s amazing because Stoney keeps talking about how they have to be smarter and better on defense, yet the defense is worse on paper heading into the year than last season 

Knowing him, he's just talking about hitting the cutoff man and that sort of thing, which, if a problem, is a managerial problem. Being critical of player acumen is well and good, but it's hollow if that is somehow never management's fault at any level.

[maxjusttyped]

6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

A rookie catcher as the back-up...?  Well, maybe, but I think that they will give Collins at least through June, if for no other reason than he's LHed and was a former 1st round draft pick that Hostetler claimed he would have taken #1 overall.

(And technically Zavala was still a rookie last year, even though it seems like he's been around longer than Jordan Bohannon.)

I think Seby and Collins are both lost causes at this point. Collins is a sub replacement level player until there's an automated strike zone and Seby will be too if the Sox give him enough playing time to to prove it. Perez supposedly is a strong defender and running that low of a strikeout rate for a catcher makes him interesting, at the very least. I think he may have been Rule 5'd if the draft wasn't cancelled this year.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

12 minutes ago, maloney.adam said:

This is ridiculous and a joke. Does anyone in the organization or outside the organization have any pull with someone in the front office that can tell Jerry that the time is NOW to spend the money on FA’s and to not wait until the deadline to trade away more of their young players?!?! FFS! Sorry about my rant. I’m just really mad right now. 

Jerry himself said 2nd place is all he really cares about. This franchise will never reach their true potential until an ownership change happens.

[maloney.adam]

10 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Jerry himself said 2nd place is all he really cares about. This franchise will never reach their true potential until an ownership change happens.

It’s a joke really. Total mismanagement of funds. This is like what the second or third year in a row where they couldn’t fix RF? That’s a fireable offense but no Jerry has to keep his buddies in the organization.

Edited March 16, 2022 by maloney.adam

[KBX]

He definitely meant that. He actively tries to field a 2nd place team especially since the AL Central was created. First it was the Indians, then the Twins, then the Tigers. My whole life they've been roughly a 2nd place team. They've only been bad due to the last rebuild, and I didn't watch when they were bad. So there you go. 

Toronto won the 92 World Series and then signed Molitor and Stewart. The 92 Sox went 86-76 and JR added Ellis Burks to fill a black hole in RF. Then a couple of young and promising starters showed up in 93, and Oakland/Minnesota regressed, so that was enough to win the division. But they tried to win a World Series with Joey Cora, Dan Pasqua, and Bo Jackson, so they ended up watching Toronto celebrate. It all sounds eerily familiar.

Edited March 16, 2022 by KBX

[Two-Gun Pete]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

2020 offseason:

Grandal
Keuchel
Encarnacion
Cishek
Gio Gonzalez
Ivan Nova (very minor)
Nomar Mazara

None of this started at the 2021 trade deadline.

This FO sent a MiLB piece to get this turd, who was all but certain to be DFA'ed from Texas; they probably could have gotten him for free, if they really wanted to do so. Let's take a look at RP vs RF since then.

 

Since the glory of The Mazara Era, they’ve:

Spent $54MM on Hendriks,

Drafted Crochet in the 1st round, and have done nothing to even bother to see if he can start while burning 2 years of control,

Burned 2 years of control and forced Kopech into the pen while not stretching him out to start,

Spent $7MM on Eaton,

Square-pegged players as widely varied as Andrew Vaughn and Gavin Sheets to Danny Mendick and Billy Hamilton in RF,

Spent ~$8MM and 2 league min pieces on Kimbrel,

Spent ~$400k and Bailey Horn on Tepera,

Picked up $16MM on Kimbrel,

Spent $24MM on Graveman, and

Spent $17MM on Kelly.

 

IOW, they've spent a grand total of ~$119.4MM on RP contracts since they stupidly traded for Mazara. They've also spent 2 MLB league minimum pieces, someone named Bailey Horn, and have burned 2 years of control each on Kopech and Crochet.

On RF, they've spent $7MM on RF contracts, and have square-pegged everyone from Danny Mendick to their galloping mastodons in Vaughn and Sheets to play RF.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Two-Gun Pete

[KBX]

All of that is irrefutable. But we may win a pennant anyway. The main problem is Reinsdorf and always has been. Not only is he cheap and 2nd-place oriented, he's loyal to a fault. JR is how come La Russa, how come Leury, how come 20 years of KW, and so on.

[Two-Gun Pete]

15 minutes ago, KBX said:

All of that is irrefutable. But we may win a pennant anyway. The main problem is Reinsdorf and always has been. Not only is he cheap and 2nd-place oriented, he's loyal to a fault. JR is how come La Russa, how come Leury, how come 20 years of KW, and so on.

I'll disagree on the bolded.

He's really not cheap, IMO. Spending ~$119.4MM or so on RP contracts isn't "cheap."

Its stupid. Its short-sighted. It's poor allocation of resources. It's been a massive blind spot in this org for years.

I mean, cut the spending on RP contracts in half, and allocate it elsewhere, so that we don't have to bother arguing if Sheets or Vaughn is a better OFer. (They both kinda suck at OF.)

Or have to drink in the replacement level 2B while we're supppsedly trying to contend for more than a division. Or finding that extra SP that pretty much every fucking team in all of baseball needs. Or finding a LH bat to balance the lineup. 

Lavishing this much time, money, draft capital, and trade assets on this one position group, while neglecting others is one reason why this team is so incomplete.

 

Once again, this org ain't "cheap." Its fucking nauseatingly stupid.

[Jack Parkman]

Yeah, I will never call Jerry/The Sox cheap again. Cheap isn't the issue, it's asset allocation and getting the most bang for your buck. 

Their payroll efficiency is awful. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Jack Parkman

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

And the numbers bore that out, with Sheets still worse.  But in LF Vaughn rated really high vs his peers. Sheets was still bad.

Comparing LF to RF is a joke and you know it. Was Vaughn a better LF than Sheets was a RF ? Yes but try comparing apples to apples and getting a decent sample size. Adam Engel was a far superior LF than his RF self if you use the same formula you did without regard for the true use of defensive stats.

There are some here who think Vaughn is also a better 1st baseman than Sheets. Using UZR 150 in 81 innings at 1st Sheets was a .9 . Vaughn was a -4.5 in 99.2 innings. Yet I'm willing to admit the data sample is far to small to draw any conclusions and that there are other defensive stats besides UZR 150 but the common thread is that they were all designed to use a large sample size . See how easy it is to be fair.

Edited March 16, 2022 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Ross Gload Fan]

[Chicago White Sox]

5 hours ago, SoCalChiSox said:

I dont think it's a surprise to anyone at this point, fathom.

I think we have to accept that they are who we thought they were. This is not even remotely surprising. 

I really wouldn’t worry about what these Charles the Cat type insiders are tweeting.  The reality is Hahn came out and said no more infield additions after signing Harrison.  He left open the possibility of an outfield addition intentionally.  He has also said in his end of season press conference that more power and better left-handed balance was needed.  I know we’re all panicking right now, but until Conforto and to maybe Schwarber are off the table, there is zero reason not to believe we aren’t pursuing them aggressively right now.

[Chicago White Sox]

I have no idea why the board has erupted in negativity?  Is this because of a couple Steve Stone tweets?  If the Sox are actively negotiating with Boras for a RF, they aren’t going to go out and say it’s a huge need.  In fact, guys like Merkin & Stone are going to say the Sox love what they have.  Until Hahn comes out and says “the team is on the floor” or all the RFs are gone, we should assume he’s looking to upgrade RF.  Unfortunately dealing with Boras takes time.

[Sarava]

10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I have no idea why the board has erupted in negativity?  Is this because of a couple Steve Stone tweets?  If the Sox are actively negotiating with Boras for a RF, they aren’t going to go out and say it’s a huge need.  In fact, guys like Merkin & Stone are going to say the Sox love what they have.  Until Hahn comes out and says “the team is on the floor” or all the RFs are gone, we should assume he’s looking to upgrade RF.  Unfortunately dealing with Boras takes time.

At this point I would be shocked if they signed Schwarber or Conforto.

I think it's just a  gut feeling we all have. In the end, isn't Grandal's contract the biggest Sox contract still? They seem hesitant to give any single player a huge deal. Which basically locks them out of the top of the market for pretty much everything except relief pitchers.

As others have said, they are the spending the money. Just not on the glaring team needs.

[Balta1701]

6 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Now do this past offseason.

You want it all in one spot? Sure.

The 2019 additions:
Yonder Alonso
Jon Jay
Kelvin Herrera 
Wellington Castillo
Hector Santiago
James McCann (great)
Alex Colome (expensive in both money and talent, but not bad)

2020 offseason:

Grandal
Keuchel
Encarnacion
Cishek
Gio Gonzalez
Ivan Nova (very minor)
Nomar Mazara (traded for Steele Walker, former 2nd round pick/OF)

2021 offseason:
Carlos Rodon
Liam Hendriks
Lance Lynn (traded for Dane Dunning)
Adam Eaton
Minor deals: Nick Williams, Brian Goodwin,  Jake Lamb

2021 trade deadline:
Craig Kimbrel
Ryan Tepera
Cesar Hernandez
Going out: Nick Madrigal, Codi Heuer, Connor Pilkington, Bailey Horn (2021 5th round pick).

Despite the completely obvious miss, 2021s offseason is expensive but very strong. But the two questions again - is this acceptable performance overall, and if you feel the 2021 trade deadline was unacceptable - did it start at that deadline or is that just part of a pattern?