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you might as well clean house with the entire fucking FO. Look at all the injuries this year to key pieces. Broom the entire fucking FO starting with Hahn and all the way down to the guy that tapes up ankles on the med team. I'm done with this FO. You pushed him too hard and FOR WHAT? So you could sell some tickets while keeping Eloy down? FUCK OFF.

Only 2 posters are freaking out and those guys freak out about pretty much everything.

How convienent for this front office. I'm tired of the damn excuses and losing baseball. I guess we got another two more years of tanking baseball to look forward to.

Actually it was probably good. Ucl tears don't happen at once but are usually weakened over time due to repetive stress. Maybe it would have recovered over the off season but more likely it would have torn anyway like next spring so his comeback would have been pushed back another 5-6 months. Still sucks but recovery rate from tj is quite good. Bad thing is that it hurts the chance of a surprise breakout like the braves had. But the timing is much better than spring which basically means almost 2 full missed seasons while he has a good chance to be back in the first half of 2020 with average recovery time being like 18 months.

Good lord people. I get this really really sucks and all, but these hot takes would embarrass Cubs fans. I mean even Donald Trump would think twice before hitting reply on a few of these.

Just avoid the inevitable and fire Hahn and company this offseason. This is looking more and more like a never-ending rebuild with each passing day.

Probably the baseball gods letting us know they disapproved of us keeping Eloy down.

Well said. Maybe you can recommend a good psychiatrist for chitownsportsfan

He also avoided it because his UCL wasn’t torn. He had a triceps injury.

I've put down the Sox koolaid man. This is a dumpster fire scenario. Here I'm dead sober and at work for another couple hours so let me lay some things out: 1) The two guys you got in the Eaton trade have ERAs of 4.37 and 5.85, they have FIPS, if you like that, of 4.97 and 5.45. They have combined for 1.1 fWAR 2) The two main pieces of the Sale trade -- one is striking out 33% of the time. He has been below replacement since June. The other just blew out his UCL. The third piece is still 2-3 years away, if he ever makes it to MLB. 3) Your aging vets that you didn't trade are now dead weight on your roster and one is a non tender candidate. Furthermore, you've got 2-3 younger guys that can play 1B that will be edged out likely because you feel "loyalty" towards him and won't just let him go or trade him this offseason for a bag of balls. 4) Your handpicked manager, now your 2nd in a row (Hahn's watch) is routinely mocked for being one of the worst strategic managers in all of MLB. This is an almost universal opinion among Soxtalk regulars. We all see it on a nightly basis. 5) Your first round draft pick tore his Achilles twice. Again, who is monitoring his rehab? This is not some random guy that is likely to be in the Ind leagues in 5 years but your 1st round draft pick at position you currently have ZERO other options at in the minors. 6) You made a PR disaster of your own doing by saying one of the dumbest things I've ever heard from a CEO, sports or otherwise by saying your top prospect, who had a 210 wRC+ at the time in AAA, "needed to check more boxes" before coming up. Dude continues to be on fire and then you say "you're not developing a DH" and yadda yadda yadda. Said prospect is now considering a grievance and is from all indications pretty pissed. __________________________________________________________________ So yea, I will keep drinking, but not the Sox koolaid. Anybody that has read my posts the last decade + here knows I am usually a pretty optimistic fan by default. But I'm done. I can't fake it anymore. I've had pretty serious doubts about the rebuild all year long but was able to see a light perhaps at the end of the tunnel. That light is gone. The Sox just lost 5-10 WAR off their club until probably 2021. The rebuild has been set back at least a year. I can't do a 5-6 year rebuild. I don't think anybody can, well, except anybody working for JR. The checks still cash regardless. They ain't paying me tho.

Exactly. Something the b**** about everything crowd here wouldn't understand.....

Yeah, I can't even deal with this as a fan. I'm just going to pretend the White Sox don't exist for a while. Peace

Pitchers are all sore this time of year. If it really wasn’t barking too much, you cannot blame Kopech. He did pitch mostly 93-94, but did hit 96. Besides I really doubt pitching or not pitching the other night would make any difference regarding the outcome. The damage was done. Whether it was a week from now, this winter or next spring, he would have had an exam that came to the same conclusion.

I don't think anyone should be angry at all. Don't direct anger at anyone, It's just so reactionary and judgmental . We have no idea why it happened . It just did.Pitching a baseball is highly stressful on the arm . Throwing over hand is not a natural thing. Find some inner peace and hope the young man can rcover well enough to have a great career. Wish him a speedy recovery. Imagine he was your friend and this happened. Everybody wants to blame someone but in reality it's just part of the game or the human experience. Crying about the rebuild or looking for blame is just so selfish. The last thing we should care about is how it has affected us.

The Cub were smart and did not rebuild mainly around pitching like the Sox. There is absolutely no guarantee that this rebuild turns into anything like the Cubs or Astros. Can we please get a mulligan on the Chris Sale trade?

Terrible break for the youngster and the Sox. Don’t waste your time looking for someone to blame. Let’s just wish him a speedy recovery

This is also the same team that DEVELOPED Chris Sale and attempted to help him pitch in a way that kept his arm healthy throughout the whole year as opposed to what is happening with the Red Sox where he misses a month with shoulder inflammation.

Then write a letter and go protest instead of b****ing.

Is it x-ray vision when literally the first thing Benetti said when the game started was that Kopech grimaced twice during warmups?

This is the first bad year in forever in terms of keeping pitchers healthy, dear lord. Otherwise they've been the best in majors for well over a decade.

It makes you wonder how anybody is drawing a salary in the FO.

and in hindsight WHAT A FUCKING AWFUL DECISION TO CALL HIM UP AND NOT ELOY FUCK YOU FRONT OFFICE WTF ARE YOU CLOWNS DOING.

So I think I speak for everyone when I said today fucking blows.. HOWEVER it's time to move on and hope for a speady recovery. This post is not for people bashing the front office discussion to bring him up, bashing Kopech for not saying anything or bashing each other. I read through 5 pages of the Kopech injury thread and got pissed because a few of you took over the thread with your incessant babbling and b****ing and moaning. This thread is specifically to discuss his service time. So with this injury he will miss all of 2019. We lost a year for bringing him up this year. Did we lose another with his injury or can we gain it back by sending him to the minors in 2020? How long? Someone fill us in because the babbling panzies ruined that last thread. Thanks!

Well I guess if you want to just count the players you want to count and ignore all of the players they actually acquired, you can use any number you care to.

A summary of my anti-rants. 1. This sucks. 2. This really sucks. 3. You're right the timing is awful. It would have been great if this happened 3 weeks ago, by comparison. I can be a little open to the argument that keeping him down would avoid service time loss in the event of injury...but literally no one made that. It was keeping him down for service time when he comes up next year, to extend things in 2025, not to protect against losing service time while rehabbing injuries. Furthermore, this happening early next year could darn well have been worse - it might have saved us service time, but it could have knocked him out for most of 2020, with that happening after we had already spent money on the free agent market with the expectation of being good in 2019 and 2020. Imagine signing Machado, giving him a 3 year opt out, and then this happening in early May of next year. 4. Everyone who's struggling to find something the White Sox did wrong...if avoiding these things were easy then someone would have figured it out. The Red Sox got lucky with David Price, congratulations. Why did Jay Groome, their top prospect, not get the same arm saving treatment from their excellent medical staff? The answer is...these things happen with pitchers. Look earlier in this thread, almost every top pitching prospect has now had one this year. You do the best you can to put them on a throwing regimen, to keep their mechanics right, and if you think their mechanics are a risk maybe you trade them. Even if you do all that, you still lose some. You can't detect these things early, even sending guys for MRI scans weekly isn't going to do that. The White Sox have been as good as anyone at avoiding this particular surgery for the last 15 years...that could be luck, but you certainly can't tell me that they're putting these guys at undue risk. Hanging this on the coaching staff or the training staff and wishing we had some other team's trainers is silly. 5. Blaming this on Rick Hahn and the front office, for now at least, is still inappropriate. Literally no one on this site dislikes Rick Hahn more than me, I believe the shame of his performance should taint his children's children's children. This is a major setback and it makes it darn near impossible to compete in 2020. However, The overall situation is still the same, we have a load arriving in 2021 or so, and now we have to plan for that as that should also be the year for full strength Kopech. We may well have dramatically mis-scouted guys. The strategy of acquiring so many pitchers could darn well be fundamentally flawed, and in 2 years we may have said that trading our last assets for young pitching was the final mistake in the career of the worst GM in baseball history. Until then, we've still got to let this play out. Holding onto Chris Sale and letting him walk after 2019, having not been over .500 since 2012, would be just about as rotten as where we are right now. 6. I do think this dramatically changes what we have to do this offseason. A 3 year signing is now a stopgap, not a move to compete. We can't give out 3-year opt outs if we sign anyone big, because the first 2 seasons are now undermanned. We now have, honestly, more motivation to move Rodon. I don't think we'll get the right kind of offers for him until next year's trade deadline personally, but if the right kind of offer comes in, the White Sox now simply won't have the firepower in 2019 or 2020 to make use of Rodon, in 2020 they will be rehabbing Kopech and working Cease into the rotation hopefully and that's just not the strong rotation we will need to make a legit run when so much of our high level talent was wrapped up in starting pitching. Holding Rodon until the right offer comes in makes sense, but if such an offer appears it's time to make the move. Now we have to play for 2021 as a piece that could have been a 2020 all star will now probably pitch 100 big league innings that year if we're lucky. We should consider that when signing contracts and when making moves on other guys, we're underpowered in 2020. 7. This sucks.

Yeah, i couldn't even watch 10 seconds worth. Im sure Benetti doesn't want to be there either

It's really hard watching this game knowing the bad news about Kopech while Benetti ignores it, talks about a hamburger and engages in trite small talk. This season is for all practical purposes, Ovah.

I blame James Shields for this.

The point is, the rest of the stats don't matter if hitter can't put bat on ball in the minors. If he's hitting that poorly against pitchers that won't sniff the bigs, what is he going to do against 5 year MLB vets? The tools are there, there are plenty of guys who had loud tools and didn't make the bigs because they didn't make enough contact. It is player specific what I look for. With Moncada and Collins, if they both make contact the rest will take care of itself. For them, BA is the biggest indicator of future success, IMO. For players like that, I put more emphasis on getting hits because the tools are there.

I don't, but for me it raises huge red flags when a position player can't hit .240 over a season in the minors. If he wasn't a first round pick, he'd be a non-prospect. He's a non-prospect. He isn't Courtney Hawkins bad, but he's not that far off. If he was hitting .270 that would be a different story. I'd love to see Adam Dunn's minor league numbers for comparison.

No. Moncada hit .290 in AAA bfore his callup and look at him. Hell, through mid-June 2017 Moncada was hitting .330 before going into a massive slump after getting injured. I wonder if Collins would hit .150 in the Bigs.

I'm not dumb. You have to hit the ball too. Anderson is a fine player, just not my cup of tea.

Ironic, coming from the guy who thinks Tim Anderson isn't good solely due to his OBP

Let the medical professional talk and listen to what he says. I’ll take what he says over someone who is b****ing any day of the week. If you don’t like what has happened based on what your other posts indicate, go grab several beers and recover tomorrow.

There is absolutely no reason not to expect him back in 2020.

This is how I'm feeling right now, You guys?

Trading Chris Sale should be a fireable offense.

Scalding hot take right there. Come back in a couple of seasons

Ohtani was already a huge red flag with his elbow the day they signed him. I think he might have already even had that platelet injection. Just like expecting a starter who tries to throw 98-100 not to ever get hurt (other than Nolan Ryan or Randy Johnson.) The fact of the matter is that the Royals, Cubs, Astros...heck, even the Indians...most teams other than the Braves (who might have the best current talent in Acuna, Jr.) chose to rebuild more on the position player side and add free agents or via minor league depth trades. If there’s any fault, it’s thinking the Sox record of keeping pitchers healthy was going to miraculously hold up during an era of baseball where overuse and guys trying to throw the ball through a wall (think Bauer or Kopech) adds up to a long line of billable hours at the offices of Dr. Jobe, Andrews, etc.

vehemently disagree. not only is it correlated in this case it was in hindsight a causal relationship. He was throwing that speed because of the pain. I know you want to defend your peers but the Sox' trainers failed epically here. He should never have made that start. It probably wouldn't have mattered but you never know.

This particular activity is all legs and is fine. I cant say that I agree with them all.

So he's been pitching with soreness for how long? And he was called up? And nobody ever thought to schedule an examination or imaging of his pitching arm? I'm telling you guys, this is another org wide failure. It wasn't "inevitable" and even, grant me this, even if it WAS INEVITABLE the way it was handled was abysmal. How. Are. You. Not. Monitoring. Him. More. Closely?

The biggest questions now should be how this impacts our offseason plan and if there is any way for us to get back some of that time that he is going to lose. I think any chance of us contending next year is probably gone now with some guys not taking the steps forward that we would have wanted and this leaving a spot in the top of the rotation open. I would not be surprised to see us sell off and try to push back our window a little further. Rodon looks great, but who knows if he will sign an extension and if we would even want to with how injured he has been. We should look what the landscape if like for him and weigh keeping him with the downside of another injury versus the risks of even more prospects. Abreu and Avi should probably be traded, but after their respective season I can't see that happening in the offseason, so we might have to go into next year with them and hope for a bounce back. If Castillo plays well this last month of the season he should attract some trade interest and he might be expendable with how good Narvaez has looked offensively and the catchers we have coming up through the system needing spots. Going into next year expecting to rebuild would also allow us to keep trotting Palka and Engel out there to see what they can become with even more major league experience. As for Kopech, assuming he is not healthy for all of next season, we may be able to justify sending him down to start 2020 so he can get back up to speed against lesser competition which would also give us a chance to gain an extra year of control which will make the pain of losing all of next year hurt less. If my math is right that would give us control through 2024 versus 2023.

I wish Michael Kopech a successful surgery and recovery and I'm glad he will be getting a ML salary during his recovery time. As a fan it sucks losing the extra year of control and sucks for the rebuild. But being a Sox fan for a long long time has told me to be more concerned with the individual who is hurt. It's his hopes and dreams that are on the line here , not mine .As a Sox fan of many years I expect things to go wrong. It's why I constantly remind everyone about injuries and flops. There's no need for outrage or crying over the rebuild. Good luck Michael Kopech.

Kopech should have taken an MRI before coming up. His velo was down in Charlotte.

Guys, honestly the injuries this year have been an unmitigated disaster. I'd even go as far to say the whole thing is already a failure. Let's say Moncada/Giolito/Lopez turn out to be good players or stars, they will be FA before the rest of the team is ready. I'm 100% on the clean house in the FO train. There is no window, and the whole thing is ruined. They aren't going to have enough support before those 3 are gone. There is also the distinct possibility that none of those three are any good either.

I believe it is for the best performance this year. This has nothing to do with potential which is a part of the top prospect voting.

It's no different than guys selling getting hit by pitches or OF trapping balls on diving plays (doesn't happen anymore due to replay though). This is something that someone should have been watching in the clubhouse and deciding that they should review.

i'm not going to dog Moncada because look at how long the Sox game Avi to develop! this is Yoan FIRST season in the bigs. it can only go up from here.

You seem like a cool dude, it was nice meeting you on Kopech Day. PM me and I'd like to get together sometime and watch a game in Schaumburg or something. Machado will be a hot commodity on the open market and might get more than Harper because there is no draft pick attached to him, not to mention Machado has had a MUCH better season than Harper this year. I think Harper is more realistic than Machado because Harper's market is kind of limited, and they won't have to spend with the big boys who can outspend everyone for him. In my mind, Harper has 3 realistic suitors: The Nationals, Diamondbacks and White Sox. WIth Machado, they might have to compete with the Cubs. Dodgers and Yankees, which isn't really a fair fight. Those teams don't have room for Harper, whether due to a crowded outfield, the luxury tax or both.