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???? Please, stop. I honestly can't believe people even propose things like this. The corner is here, let's start over again!

Who cares about competing for the division in 20’? This rebuild afforded you the opportunity to build a powerhouse. A team that consistently hits 95+ wins. That required signing some big name players. The Cubs tried to do that failed with their signings but Theo still understood the importance of it. The Sox didn’t even make it that far yet bc they physically cannot sign anyone (but they did prove my point by trying for Machado). The Yankees accomplished this on the fly. They have a great core of youth mixed with many high-priced stars. We’ll see what the results of that are in short order. Sox fans, for whatever reason (maybe it’s that we’re exhausted and overly eager to do something) really think the guys from the farm and some mediocre players filling holes will be good enough. Yeah, for 85-88 wins. Which may be enough for our division but my god you people need to snap out of it. It’s not about what we have in our young controllable guys - it’s about what we COULD HAVE / SHOULD HAVE paired with those guys from the cap space created by doing the rebuild. That is the point. If you cannot comprehend that we all want to see success from the team, and specifically this “core” then you’re not only hopeless, you’re blinded by desperation. That core is only as good as their weakest links. Filling voids with mediocrity, simply to please your fan driven urge to TRY and take advantage of a weak division is not only short-sighted, it’s borderline stupid. The purpose of the rebuild was to get as many great players as possible that had yet to become great (right??? that’s what prospects are and especially the one’s we netted). We’ve lucked out, in that, it’s looking pretty good. So far anyway. Why would you hinder the team’s long-term potential, or the peak that this core can have, by straddling our guys with mediocre talent. Platoon players. Aging catchers. Etc. It’s beyond ineptitude. It’s asinine and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding for ceilings. Our ceiling could be huge. Now it’s less. At the moment, it’s quite literally the difference between Moncada at 3B and Mazara in RF or Moncada in RF and Rendon, for example, at 3B. You guys honestly want the former? Lets say we make the playoffs (which will be tougher than people think) and then, there you are, bottom of the 9th and up comes Nomar Flipping Mazara. When it could’ve been Machado, Rendon, etc. You people really want that possibility to exist? You’d rather have that then a potential 100 win team during our peak? The whole point of this rebuild was to get the good, young, CHEAP assets that would allow the Sox to do what we’ve been told for 20years that they couldn’t...sign the big time players to pair with them. This is how you execute a rebuild. And if it means you overpay for a guy, you overpay. That is the luxury you have afforded yourselves. More importantly, for those not mathematically inclined. You can front load a guy who you have concerns about as he ages. That’s actually the best way to do it. Their salary is absorbed while the young guys are cheapest and that salary declines as the other rises. This is not rocket science gentlemen, this is business. If all this rebuild was was to net good young players and then we’re going to trot out bums with those guys, or worse, expect them all to not only pan out but do so immediately AND be good enough to win a WS, you’re all sadly mistaking. It doesn’t take much time to look at what we have vs the teams that are already better (and adding more to the mix - ie NYY/Cole) and see that we haven’t separated ourselves. At all. Several teams have just as many potential stars as we do, some of which are even better. It puts us back where we have been so many times. Very good/great players scattered amongst guys who aren’t very good. But you’re all so excited to see this come together you’re losing sight of the big picture. Now in saying all this (and coming out of message board read-only retirement to do so) I think it’s premature to shop either. I don’t think the logic is wrong, in that, they’re ready now and we’re quasi-competitive (potentially) this season and next (without a shocking trade/Betts signing). People need to take into account learning curves and failure rates. Especially with the SP and guys like Vaughn. Advanced bat or not, Vlad Jr has an 80 hit tool and struggled last season. So even if those guys reach their ceilings along the way, it may not be overnight and thus, the OP isn’t far off. I just don’t think it’s now, barring offers that far exceed the very good ones he laid out. Those should be considered at any time, for any team. All of this is before we factor in that the Sox are demonstrating, once again, that many of these guys will only see one contract here (should they live up to their hype) because we simply cannot afford them all and have no interest in signing big contracts. I’m with you all. I’m excited for the future but I am incredibly shocked and disappointed in the full opportunity we’re missing out on. The Sox knew this a year ago when going to for Harper/Machado. Not all the sudden this isn’t a necessity or a smart move? Nah, I’m not buying it. They are an arrogant bunch. The Machado circus proves that much. They didn’t expect that and they figured they learned their lesson would offer max for Wheeler. He spurned them. They didn’t expect it. Now they’re scrambling & dealing prospects away prematurely to their own plans. We, collectively, need to understand this and continue to apply whatever minimal pressure they can feel from a fan base to insure they push for Betts & co. If we hit our true window in 21’ and this is all we have, we may make it there one day but you guys will be severely disappointed in the results overall. Idk about you guys but I didn’t support this rebuild so we can “catch fire” like 05’ and play the other years like a slightly better version of 01-04’. I supported it bc the expectation was we’d be dominant. That is what the ceiling could be. That is what they’re wasting. That’s why the OP wants to move 2 very good guys for 8+ more good guys that are 1-2 years away. It’s not wrong, but it may be premature.

Can we introduce downvotes? I would pay a small subscription fee to buy a batch of downvotes to properly insult this awful post.

Here's a list of starting pitchers still available; the ones who have been bolded are better than Dylan Covey: Name Hyun-Jin Ryu MadisonBumgarner Homer Bailey Ivan Nova Wade Miley Andrew Cashner Jason Vargas Julio Teheran Gio Gonzalez Rich Hill Dallas Keuchel Aaron Sanchez Collin McHugh Robbie Erlin Matt Moore Josh Tomlin Clay Buchholz Chad Bettis Cody Anderson Tommy Milone Jeremy Hellickson Taijuan Walker Tyson Ross Jhoulys Chacín Felix Hernandez Jimmy Nelson Edinson Volquez Marco Estrada Clayton Richard Alex Wood Danny Salazar Kohl Stewart Shelby Miller Steven Wright Rico Garcia Drew Smyly Matt Harvey Wade LeBlanc Jerad Eickhoff Wei-Yin Chen Ervin Santana Ross Detwiler Trevor Cahill Derek Holland Edwin Jackson James Shields

There's no reason to lock this. This is a very intriguing idea and a "4-d chess move". This is a move that only those with BIG IQ's will 'get'. I'm totally IN on listening to offers for Moncada and Giolito. But why stop there? Let's sell Kopech too, that guy is an injury waiting to happen, and also let's find someone who will take Eloy.

Best post in this thread. Bennett and his boys riling up SoxTalk with a moronic idea because they have nothing else to do.

You people are insufferable. My goodness.

The logic isn't wrong. If you're not going for it now, why waste those years of control?

I mean, at this point, you just have to assume the Sox were a "bigger" offer right?

"If the Sox sign Ryu and he can't pitch, it sinks the rebuild" might be the worst take I've ever heard.

To me you sign a reliable guy like Keuchel who is durable and can eat a lot of innings. Then go a little more on the upside/risk side with your second guy with Wood. Then you have potentially 6-7 available starters at various points of the season which will help with injuries, innings limits, etc. 1. Gio 2. Keuchel 3. Cease 4. Wood 5. Lopez 6. Kopech 7. Rodon at some point?

Here's the dilemma. If what's going through Hahn's head is anything like what I see on this board from all of us, no wonder he's nervous to make a move. Flip through any one page in any thread and you will see: 1. Spend the money, but don't overpay on these bums! 2. Don't bail another team out 3. Don't trade anymore prospects unless you are getting a #2 or #3 that is cost controlled for 2-3 years and costs Collins or less. I could go on more. Hahn probably wants to even do more but is hearing Jerry or Kenny in his ear. I wouldn't want his job. I still would personally go some mix of the following: 1. Price if you can get the price down to about $20 million per or gain Benintendi. Little going back as far as prospects. Yes, Price had an injury issue last year but it seems to be good going in. You have a guy that before that basically gave you 200 IP per year and an ERA below 3.50. Yep, age is a concern, but again, find a resume like that on the market that is cheaper. We have money people. 2. One of the other BIG 3. I'm fine with any of them. I would go 4 years on any and anywhere from 70-90 million if that's what it took. You can't piecemeal reclamation projects for both of the last two remaining spots. One is fine but not both. 3. Get #1 and/or #2 above and (yep, I would consider doing both) then go get Wood, Nova, Teheran, Miley type that could go into long relief once the kids are ready. Do this if you don't want to spend $18-$20 million per on two pitchers (even though again you could since you can always move pitchers at trade deadlines if you have a surplus). I am now ready to be destroyed :). Carry on!

Well they made the best offer and it's very possible he just wanted to play in Philly. We have no idea if his agent came back to the Sox and said look you have the high offer but he's going to Philly and even offering more won't change his mind or said the opposite and told them just a little more and you have him. Without that info I can't condemn the Sox. If we truly are glass half full guys I can't blame any team if that happens . I think it's unreasonable for most to say just offer the most money and when we do turn around and now say there's a "we suck" tax. What's next another tax on top of that called the " you're not the Cubs tax " ? We don't suck. Grandal signed here and if a pitcher doesn't want to pitch to one of the best pitch framers in the game that's his loss. Fuck Wheeler more so than fuck the Sox.

Reading through the board, I can't help but get the feeling that many people actually expected the Sox to compete for a ring this season. Be it the idea of overpaying for starting pitching, dropping a record contract on a player not fitting a position of need, comfort with trading young prospects, or just getting upset that Hahn hasn't "spent the money". 2020 should have never been the season we Sox fans expected a truly competitive team. We're going to be several weeks without Madrigal and/or Robert, and then likely have to wait for them to adjust to ML pitching. A month or several months without Rodon and Kopech. Cease and Lopez need to find consistency. Collins is still learning how to hit in the majors. This was a 72 win team last season. I don't blame Hahn or Jerry for not going all in this offseason. We may be competitive for a WC slot this season or, best case scenario, everyone performs as we hope, win the division, and get shellacked by the Yankees or Astros in the playoffs. This would be the case even if we'd gotten Wheeler or Rendon. If Hahn fills RF with a Mazara platoon partner and can get a decent stopgap SP, I'd call this offseason a success. Give us this season to win more games, let guys mature, let Kopech and Rodon get healthy and back in form, and see what happens. Next offseason is when we go all in, imo.

It’s highly unlikely the WS are a legitimate contender in 2020 based on how this offseason has transpired. It’s also become apparent that the timelines of the first wave of prospects, specifically Moncada and Giolito, do not align particularly well with the next wave of prospects and long term pieces like Eloy and Timmy, especially if 2020 is another lost season. I’m sure the fans would crucify them for this so they won’t do it BUT I’d strongly consider trading Moncada and Giolito right now while they are at peak value. If someone like Lindor can potentially fetch May and Lux from the Dodgers, what would a guy like Moncada return in his final season of pre-arb? The demand for 3b around the league is huge right now (partly why the Rockies said they would listen on Arenado). Same with Giolito (goes without saying that demand for high end starting pitcher is through the roof). Why not target high end, MLB ready prospects for those two so that they better align with the forthcoming promotions of Lubo, Madrigal, and Vaughn? Prospects I would target in trades: May, Lux, Gray (Dodgers) Adell, Marsh (Angels) Gore, Patino, Baez (Padres) Pache, Wright, Waters (Braves)

He builds a team with young players and prospects yet you say you can't judge him on the future which he built. Not an agenda at all.

If you don’t see which way this offseason is going, you haven’t been a White Sox fan long enough...

He didn't sign and he's not on the team. Maybe if Hahn, Kenny, and the owner didn't harbor a culture of failure during their tenure he would be here.

Excuse my french, but how the fuck has he come up woefully short? You cannot make that determination until and if they fail at the rebuild in a couple years. IT IS NOT OVER YET HOLY SHIT. Seriously yall need to get a grip. There are still moves to be made. Anything can happen. Anything can change in an instant.

Bad scouts, bad player evaluation, constrained by finances, constrained by the "family" dynamic that ownership has tried to sell as genuine but is actually just playing favorites, constrained by his need to appear lawyer-ly and aloof, and, past all that, just hindered by bad judgement. It's hardly ALL his fault, but i'm sure he'll end up taking the blame.

Because Mr. and Mrs. Preller gave birth to AJ

I think he thought Jerry would actually spend money. Rather, Jerry meant he would only spend more than he has ever spent (Grandal). Honestly, it is embarrassing that we have zero $100 million contracts. I mean, KC has had one and we have not. The top 3 Angels: Trout, Pujols and Rendon will make more than the entire White Sox roster next year. This will not win you baseball games, not consistently, not multiple championships.

To me, it’s trash outside of Bumgarner, Ryu, and Keuchel. All of the SP options outside of these three guys are fliers.

It’s almost like posters can see the quality of the remaining free agents.

This FO has a poor track record in recent years for spending. But too many posters are giving up in the first few weeks of December. So far the Sox have not given up any quality assets and have added Grandal. There are weeks for Hahn to bolster our pitching staff and find a quality RF. Too many posters are acting like Spring Training opens this weekend. Hahn has 2 more months to re-do the roster before we see the final product. Then we can praise or trash him.

Get a grip on yourself. Jesus Christ.

Ask yourself: What would Billy Beane do? What would the Rays do? Given the internal cap that JR seems to have on any individual contract.....it would have to be a consideration.

Trades have risk; the fact that they came out of three mega-deals with as many quality players as they did has a lot of luck involved. The more you do that, the more likely you are going to get some lemons. They traded Sale because they were rebuilding. Now their pieces are coming together and you want to start over. It's a dumb idea; if I can put it lightly.

I appreciate the irony of your handle and the post made.

This is the most frustrating thing.

I've renewed my tickets for 2020. I'm expecting a Playoff year with at least 100 victories.

If your plan is to destroy the fan base, go ahead. Trade Moncada and Gio. I endorsed the rebuild on the idea that it would eventually end. I could go and support the Pirates or Marlins if I wanted to see the endless roster shuffle.

Meh vets would be a tremendous improvement over what we put out at the end of the year.

Ok, so the White Sox are finally coming out of the haze led by a 24 year old 3B who just put up a 141 OPS+ and a 24 year old budding ace who just put up a 134 ERA+ with an 11.6 SO9, and you want to trade these men?

Y'all wildin'.

He was good to go last September. The only reason he will not be int he rotation is service time.

I actually liked that Carson was upset that they had moved him off the starting pitching track, yet quickly became determined to work hard to be a good reliever. I will always root for the kid to really figure it out. He's gotta throw strikes though.

There’s one thing we know Hahn excels in - trading young MLB stars for high end prospects. Why not utilize his biggest strength in this instance and then turn it over to Dombrowski lol

Well we won 72 last year and added Grandal and Mazara. I figure we should be good for about 95 wins this year.

They shouldn’t rebuild, but at least we know our owner is smarter than the dumb Bulls owner that let the same Front Office oversee multiple rebuilds.

I think non-tendering Avi had more to do with the fact they wanted to give Cordell and Palka a shot at RF in what was going to be a lost season. Maybe you find a cheap controllable asset out of nowhere. Avi was an impending FA, so even if he had a good year, he was gone. Obviously Palka and Cordell and the other cast of characters (Delmonico, Tilson, Jay) all flopped, but I think trying to find a nice piece for the future out those guys the plan. Which honestly I guess made a little sense based on Palka's 2018. It didn't work, but I didn't hate the thought process at the time.

Someone, please lock this

Correct. Either we’re going for it or we’re not. If we’re in the middle, we are simply wasting years of control on Moncada and Giolito as they reach arb next winter and their trade value starts to diminish.

For whatever it is worth, Avi doesn't have nearly the prospect pedigree, and he's 4 years older.

We're getting none or them at those prices.

If we want to continue playing the lottery like the poor do, we'll end up the same way, broke and looking up at the people that actually know what to do with money. Play a couple lottery tickets? Sure. Spend all of your money on lottery tickets? Welcome to White Sox baseball for the last decade

I run a corporation, this sounds great in theory. Ultimately you can't control if someone does not want to be somewhere. How many times have you heard from sports people that a said player will always take the most money..........in this case it didn't work for us. We offered the most money and I can't be mad at the FO for that. There are plenty other reasons to be mad.

Holy crap, Brett Anderson pitched 176 innings last year? Isn't that guy's arm made of saltines?

How can you know they “clearly have no contingency plan”? Cuz they didn’t spend $300M on Cole?