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I’m legitimately stunned by the discourse on this. It’s all hindsight. There’s no reason that a team would’ve seen that deal as a two year with two options. He looked like a total bargain after 2023. The Sox would’ve needed two top 50 prospects in baseball, another org top ten and another good prospect and it probably would’ve been seen as light in December 2023.

Regardless of the past - in my mind the answer is clear - you got to gamble on him having a good half - if he does - they will get a much better return and if he doesn’t than you aren’t that much worse off down the road. Right now they aren’t getting a high impact prospect so in my mind don’t move him unless you take on a contract to facilitate getting real talent. If they sell him low that just isn’t a good outcome. This isn’t the same as Cease. I am somewhat hopeful a fresh offseason and fresh start can do wonders for him. But I never thought he would have a year where his production was that low (his tools are just too good).

They weren't going to get value for Luis Robert on his contract with four years left though. Not everything has to be someone's fault.

Walker was the Sox first pick (Comp round overall 47) who was a huge surprise when selected from a Utah CC. Literally no one thought he was a first rounder but Kenny saw him play one game and came away convinced. Centerfield tools, could run pretty well, but couldn't really hit. I believe these days he's like a fireman or a paramedic or something. Not his fault that Kenny drafted him that high, but kind of symptomatic of how the Sox weren't like other orgs in a bad way.

The reason for not moving him was that he had four years of control and no team would have given up enough. I remember the discussions here about it, and many people agreed it would have been dumb to move him at that point.

The only thing you feel poorly about, on a team projected to lose 110+ games, is the bullpen? Crazy.

I don’t think anyone is buying into it except WestEddy

No I'm not ok if Montgomery is the OD starter but defense at SS is going to be iffy no matter who they put there unless it's longshot Amaya and I think I'd rather have Baldwin get a shot as SS because while they are trying to get offense out of Vargas and Sosa I'm not looking forward to their defense when one of them DHs or plays 1st base or w/e they have in store for them. The infield is a lot more crowded with potential MLB players than the OF is. Fletcher got over 230 PA with the Sox .He failed miserably and it's not like he or Deloach lit up the Minors either. Again you're dealing with marginal types. Failure of all turds is kind of normal. But you can't give up on trying to trade turds into a few minor leaguers in lost seasons. Nor should you play prospects who are some of the turds. They are still here. Let them knock down the door to beat out the trade candidate vets.

I'd rather light that $125 on fire and send the video clip to the White Sox than give it to Reinsdorf.

Fletcher has shown no signs whatsoever since his arrival in the minors or major last year of being capable of providing value. I have more faith in Colas providing value and we all know how deep Colas is buried on the depth chart.

I mostly agree, but I think Getz has done a poor job with trades so far, at least prior to the Crochet. I will applaud him for bringing in outside voices into the org, that will help no matter what. But to truly transform the org he has to make the right hires. I will 100% question the Gene Watson hire as being a good one and so far many of our trades leave a lot to be desired. Hopefully that has more to do with the pro scouts he inherited rather than Watson himself, but at some point we need to start winning some trades to feel good about where the organization is heading.

I just don't know what else Getz is supposed to do. He very well may be a terrible GM, but given the crater left when the last rebuild failed so spectacularly and the structural mess that was the Sox org, whoever tried to step in faced a humongous project. I would have preferred Theo Epstein or someone like that, but so far Getz is making a lot of solid moves structurally. Everyone here knows how much I despised the Vargas trade from the second it was announced, but other than that, it's been about what you'd expect.

By now, I really dislike the idea of trying to trade Robert. I would be shocked if the Sox could get a good offer for him right now and the only thing he costs the team right now is money, which is something they shouldn't be tight on. If he comes out blazing hot, then trade him. If he doesn't, try to rehabilitate his value with the knowledge that if he isn't living up to expectation, then the years ticking off his contract becomes a value-add. Rebuilding is all about going for upside. Why sell low on a player who clearly has extremely high upside?

Sox in the past couple years were very much "well if EVERYTHING goes right, then maybe..." and then we say your luck never goes all one way. Then the luck all went one way and it was the wrong way. Now we're in the "doesn't really matter" phase although if things do go well, maybe the Sox could sniff .500 in 2026 if things go very well and they throw a little money at the situation.

That's not true at all. The actual real third option was he still had too much time left on his contract and would have been really hard to get actual value. Everyone would have lost their mind if they traded him for "less than" and no team would have given up the farm for him.

You have a gross misunderstanding of what you think people believe. You’re crafting a narrative that fans just want the White Sox to spend. That isn’t true. You can keep saying it, but it doesn’t make it any more true. You are wrong. Additionally, if you believe Jerry Reinsdorf approved a $75 million dollar contract because he wanted to “make fans happy,” I have some ocean front property to sell you in Nebraska. Fans don’t want the Sox to spend just to spend. They want them to spend on difference makers. You asked if you wanted the Sox to overpay for Wheeler. My answer would be absolutely. Since he’s signed in Philly, he’s put up a 25.4 WAR. When the Sox missed on Wheeler, they pivoted to Keuchle. During his three years with the Sox, he put up 1.0 WAR. I would have loved to see some conviction from the Sox to get the desired target Hahn and Co. wanted, and have the backing of the front office. “Zach, if this takes $140 million to get you here and make your family happy, that’s what we’re going to do.” Yes, there is a point where dollars no longer makes sense and no one is justifying that, but if they felt strong about the prospects of Wheeler being a No. 1, then you do what it takes to push the core over the top that you just spent years building up. But we know that’s not what the Sox did, because they don’t really have an interest in doing what it takes to win consistently. It’s not in their DNA.

Let me clear here. Jerry is a cheap, risk adverse owner. Being one of two MLB franchises to never have signed a $100M+ is a joke…full stop. I’m just sick of this era of fake news where people feel they can just straight up lie to embellish their talking points. Saying Jerry doesn’t believe any player is worth $100M is a factually untrue statement. That was the entire point of the post. No doubt he should be slammed for being a cheap and generally shitty owner. As for Wheeler, it’s the only free agent miss that I will give them a tiny amount of credit for. We 100% know we were the highest offer on paper. Balta arguing otherwise for years has always bothered me because it’s widely known across baseball. It would still would have been higher than what the Phillies offered if you really want to go down the tax rabbit hole. Also, people always say the Sox should have offered more, but these type of negotiations are never that simple. Regardless, the Sox didn’t land Wheeler and just being willing to offer the most money to one single free agent doesn’t negate the fact that under Jerry the Sox have failed in this area so many times before for so many reasons.

Generally I agree, but when you have a generational player, I don't mind building around him. Robert is probably the most physically gifted player to ever play for the White Sox. I would have traded him, but I also understand hanging on to him.

It wasn’t even leaked by the White Sox initially though, it was leaked by the agent. The Sox signed Grandal and then they offered Wheeler 5/125. The agent reportedly told Hahn that they had a deal. Wheeler’s wife preferred the East coast and Wheeler took 5/118 from Philly instead. The agent leaked to media that Sox had highest offer because of future clients and a good relationship with Sox. s%*# happens. The pivot to Keuchel and Encarnacion didn’t work out obviously.

That’s fine then. It’s so cheap but it might make a nice gift for family and friends that don’t know how terrible the Sox are. Imagine being the owner of a sports franchise in which you have to sell tickets for $4.63 a piece because your product is so bad… and you STILL make money. Jerry is such a bum.

I refuse to put more money into Jerry’s pockets. He’s a bum.

From 2021-2023, Robert missed 36% of games due to injury. Let’s not pretend the risk of injury was something new to Robert in 2024. He had a fantastic 2023, a career year to this point. (Also the only season is 5 career seasons he’s had over 400 AB’s) As everyone is familiar with, Jerry said the reason they hired Getz is because they “didn’t want to waste a year.” Now, in theory that can be interpreted a few different ways (all of them look bad for the Sox) but best case, it was Jerry saying they wanted someone to come in with a plan right away and start executing on their long term vision. Given what we have seen from Getz thus far, this is a complete tear down to the studs. If that’s the case, and has been from the start, then trading Robert after 2023 shouldn’t have been out of the question, at all. There was always going to be an inherent risk in holding on to Robert, and given his history on the DL, as well as value being removed every year because of control. When you talk about “value” for Robert in the winter of 2023…you take the best offer you receive, if it meets your internal criteria for what would be needed. That’s up to the Sox to set. You may feel like it’s not “proper” value for what a player should have with 4 years of control, but that’s meaningless if you project he’ll never have as high of a value as he does in 2023. It’s simply about how they project Robert. If they truly believed Robert would put up better numbers in 2024 and 2025 than he did in 2023, along with being able to stay healthy for a full season…that seems like a risky proposition. This is a very long way of saying at this point…they gambled and lost on Robert. It could still be changed, but if you don’t feel like a package that was offered in December of 2023 will never be offered again for Robert, then they made a mistake.

It's hindsight to plenty of fans who overvalued him. It never was about his contract.Trading him after a great season with his injury history would've been done by an organization like the Rays .Selling high is paramount in baseball . Look what Crochet got after his lone good season eason as a starting pitcher. I think if you pulled up the thread in the 2023 off-season you see a lot thinking calling him a superstar and overvaluing him . I'm on record as saying he wasn't a superstar back then so it's not hindsight to me. Also the Sox were selling everything in sight. What was it about Roberts career path and the Sox 2023 season that makes you think 2024 didn't have a good chance of being a train wreck for both the Sox and Robert ? I seem to remember @WestEddy arguing that Robert, Moncada and Eloy getting hurt was a deciding factor in 2024 being historically bad and Soxtalkers mocking him like expecting them to stay healthy was stupid since they were always injured. I'm sure plenty of them were the same people telling us that Robert was a superstar and it was impossible to get fair value for him back in the 2023 off-season.

God, I would have killed for that return. Organization would be in a much better position today if they had pulled that off.

I agree that the best chance of accelerating this rebuild is finding some SP that can be flipped for positional players. This first wave of arms cementing themselves as major league starters before Schultz, Smith, Taylor, etc force their way into the rotation would be a huge help.

They're going to have to get aggressive to build this thing. Hopefully soon. They just don't draft or internationally sign near astutely enough to build this from ground zero. The small opening I see is if they hit on a bunch of these pitchers who are currently ML ready or approaching ML ready, and then make savvy trades of those pitchers. That will require a level of aggression and urgency, but, if successful, could expand their pool of players/young prospects. That's one reason I was cool with the idea of keeping Robert: you have a really good player at a core up-the-middle position. But they turned on that idea of "building around" Robert pretty quickly and forcefully.

As some have suggested, the market for Robert may increase later, so no reason to trade now unless the return is great.In addition, it might make sense (again depending on possible return) to dangle one of our catchers (Korey Lee(a proven ML catcher) or Thaiss (age 30 in May)) and Andrew Vaughn (considering other available options at 1B) in the trade market, targeting teams looking for catching or a first basemen. I would like to keep Teel and Quero. As far as the concept of rebuilding, it seldom works. There are many more examples of failed rebuilds than those that worked out. Given the low payroll the Sox have and very few players that have much trade value, there is no reason to capitulate much further. At some point, it is time to enter the FA market and recapture some of the fan excitement lost the past few seasons. Some claim Reinsdorf will never add FA talent so it is up to JR and his current ownership team to prove them wrong. I , for one, am looking forward to watching this 2025 team because of eventual stellar starting pitchers, Noah Schultz and Hagen Smith, and a few other likely starters (i.e. Cannon, Iriarte, Martin Perez, Davis Martin, ). Historically there have been teams that have competed because of a few dominant starters (remember Randy Johnson), a decent rotation and bullpen, and decent defense. You do not necessarily need a line-up that is an offensive force to compete. It is axiomatic in baseball terms that pitching and defense can win a lot of games. So, the question is, will Sox pitching make a difference this year? Regarding our pitching check this interview with Katz out:

We should 100% gamble on him having a good 1H rather than dump him for 50 cents on the dollar, but it seems that Getz and team feel differently.

Under no circumstance can I justify a roster for what will likely be a 105 to 110 loss team having five veteran OFs. If there was a good chance we were going to keep Robert and Benintendi but also wanted a legitimate backup CF, then we should have prioritized Taylor over Slater at the time. It’s simply bad roster design to have this many veterans without positional flexibility and any trade upside. Again, I am pretty confident they will trade Robert this spring and as such this move makes more sense as a CF placeholder.

I think it makes sense just for the possibility Robert may get traded before the season . The longer you wait the less chance you have that Taylor is not there to replace Robert . As far as roster construction goes it's a bit odd but Rojas can play the jack of all trades roll along with Baldwin playing SS if Colson Montgomery isn't just handed SS. I'm rather interested in seeing how Catcher plays out during the preseason with McKinven. Him and Fuller have a lot of work to do.

You’re spot on. I was one of the few advocating the Sox trade Robert last winter and was told the idea was ridiculous by most here.

Because he can field CF defensively way better than anyone else available for that little cost . He can also put Benintendi on the bench in the late innings or against LH starting pitchers . He leads all MLB OFs in DRS with 54 runs saved since 2020. He's also likely their best Pinch runner and despite his inability to hit he usually generates positive WAR overall. Incrementally he'll do things to help them win and avoid another season like 2024. Why are you so opposed to it ? Can you name one OF who truly was available or currently on the Sox for equal or less money who can provide what Taylor can defensively and on the basepaths ? Certainly not Fletcher. Getz didn't even trust him to handle RF where he contributed decently defensively but he doesn't have the wheels to be as good defensively in CF , on the bases or as a late inning defensive replacement for Benintendi or occasional starter against LHP. If Fletcher was the best you could do to replace Robert in CF that's pretty bad. He couldn't even earn RF and you're going to hand him CF ? If you're thinking Slater in CF you're going to have to convince me that taking him out of the RF platoon roll against LHP and sticking him in CF full time in the event of a Robert trade helps OF depth ,RF weak side Platoon , late inning defense in LF pinchrunning and defense in CF and contributes more to wins than just adding Taylor. What if Robert and Tauchman are traded ? Then won't you need a left handed RF ( presumably Fletcher or Colas) to hold down the fort in RF unless you prefer Joey Gallo out there ? If the goal is to win more than 41 games again but still have the best chance at the Top pick in every round of the draft you're going to have to come up with better reasons than it saves JR $2M dollars or blocks the 5'6", -.8 fWar Dominic Fletcher from playing CF.

100%.

There are some fans who believe that Getz is going to be a good GM, and he is bringing good baseball men into the organization. They see winning happening soon. But this can't go on. You can't have one 100-loss season after another and expect fans to have confidence in this so-called rebuild. I don't expect mega-signings but money needs to be spent. Some of these prospects will not work out and so the losing will continue. It is devastating to an organization when it loses credibility with the public, in this case the fans. Perhaps Getz can move this team along. But there has to be some tangible results, or many fans will just tune out. Credibility has been long gone.

Right. I'm pretty confident that they'll be able to go out and grab a first baseman or a left fielder or a mid-rotation starter or even a great closer. The other players probably need to be in your org already though.

The bottom line is that 5/75 in the largest contract in franchise history. They’ve offered other players over $100 million but that doesn’t really matter. They’ll offer players over $100 million again and I’d bet that Chris Getz is the GM who signs multiple $100 million contracts. They have no money on the books going forward. They’ll use free agency again. The biggest issue is that he’ll need to build a team of homegrown players at premium positions because ownership will never spend at the top of the market for star players. There are ways around that but you have to be really good at scouting and development.

Some people will pick 94 wins no matter what the roster tells them

It didn’t happen. An offer isn’t a contract. The fact remains… 5/$75. Period. Do Blue Jays fans still give credit to their team for trying but failing to sign Ohtani? No. A failed signing is just that — a whiff, a failure. No one cares. No one wants to overpay bad players. I don’t see anywhere in this thread where anyone claimed that the Benintendi signing was great. But continue on with your stupid hyperbole and lies about what I said about Michael A. Taylor. I wanted the Sox to sign him last offseason for $3 to $4 million dollars as a flip candidate. Well, he sucked bad and the Sox just gave him $2 million this offseason instead. Why you think this is some sort of burn, I’ll never know. You continue making excuses for a bad, cheap owner and team — “The Sox last big contract was bad so they are justified in never giving out big contracts!” No. The problem is with the awful GMs that Jerry hires picking the wrong players to sign. And it doesn’t matter anyways. SS2K5 nailed it here. So while you continue to fantasize about a contract offer that was never formalized, remember that the Sox would still be in the minority of cheapskate teams even had Wheeler accepted it.

The running theme is that Getz continues to take back the wrong players in his trades, regardless of the scale of players involved. Even with lesser trades, your team isn’t going to improve when you continue to take back negative WAR players over ~2 WAR players.

Why has Michael A. Taylor shown at this stage of his career he deserves a spot on the team?

I'm hoping Bobby gets better so he can be with his family, friends and fans for years to come.

I actually do think velocity was a significant issue last season.

Here's the fun part. While we go round and round in this meaningless contract circle jerk, even if you were to give the 5/125 to the White Sox it would move them past Cleveland and Pittsburgh in terms of their biggest contracts ever awarded, so instead of 29th, they'd be 27th. Every post on this discussion is a waste of time as it effectively changes nothing no matter who is "right".

But Hahn has blackmail on Wheeler and forced him to say this!

It's a rebuild .You may be right about Vargas but being right about guys isn't the point. Rebuilds require patience. Vargas is out of options . It's his last chance and Sosa's too. He's had very good minor leagues numbers.He can't possibly be as bad as he's shown. Being a good hitter is harder than ever. Numbers across baseball were down. Pitchers make improvements faster than hitters. Adding a pitch with a lot of movement with command is not easy but I think it's easier than making split second decisions about swinging the bat. You're dealing with a lot of prospects , any of whom can flop or succeed. We're all guessing here. Someone like Meidroth might be the most MLB ready prospect the Sox have based on his AAA numbers but unfortunately he's not 1st in line based on options. There's a pecking order whether we like it or not. I think the logjam has a purpose. Another name for a logjam is a dam. You remove a few logs ( guys out of options , guys you trade off), you let guys show they are ready and push hard against that weakened dam until they burst through. The wheat will be separated from the chaff .It's just going to take time. There will be a lot of comings and goings of guys Getz made minor trades for because he's dealing on the fringes. There's lots of failure doing that. If you're angry about Getz being hired or his performance so far it's understandable. However I haven't seen many counter solutions to what Getz is up against. Who would've taken a no win position like Getz is in and done better ? You can all dream that someone could have been hired but he or she still would need to do the same things Getz has been trying to do with as little money . Maybe Crochet would have been handled differently if a different GM fired Katz and didn't hire Bannister. Maybe they don't sign Fedde because apparently the rest of MLB didn't think enough of him to offer what the Sox did. It also might be why they were so reluctant to trade for him. For a guy who didn't have much money to work with signing Fedde was a quite a coup. It's pretty pitiful that in 2 off seasons as GM that $15M Fedde contract is the most he's spent on any one player. The fact that he hired a few well respected coaches and seems to be making an effort to overhaul the infrastructure all seems to be the right things to do. You might be skeptical and say Hahn said and did the same things but that doesn't mean Getz shouldn't get his shot at doing it better. I just don't care if Fletcher doesn't get to play CF when Robert is traded .Better to have a guy who saves runs in Taylor than a guy who can't save runs in the field or create them at bat. A good fielding RF isn't necessarily a good CF. Dudes are going to have to show they deserve a shot or get out of the way.

I'm not as down on the team as yourself and others are. I like the starting pitching rotation. I'm hoping that Montgomery, Meidroth, Quero and Teel provide something positive this season. If that happens things can turn around. The only thing I'm down about is the bullpen. I was hoping they would add some pieces to the bullpen this off season.

First post in the history of our long tenure here I might actually agree with you. Look at the top threads on the forum right now and it's like the season is months away instead of starting this week in earnest. It's really just sad how JR has killed the vibes before the season even starts. Now, maybe things get off to a good start and we don't totally suck. Then perhaps we'll get some excitement or at least tepid enthusiasm back into our Sox fandom. But until that happens I don't see much to talk about or discuss and that is too bad.

First time in my Sox fandom I have to study the roster, try to read mlb.com to learn who will be playing for us on a regular basis this season. I can't be the only Sox fan who needs a class in Sox 101 2025 team. It sickens and disgusts me. Am I alone here? Certainly some of you know some pretty darn good Sox fans of past years who have no idea who these current Sox stiffs and retreads who will take the field in 2025 are. If so please tell me I'm not alone! It sickens me to see who will comprise our infield this year and catcher positions. And the bullpen. Who are these no names and why did the Sox do this to their loyal fans. I am a longtime Sox fan whether u believe it or not. p.s. At least I've heard of Beni and Robert and Vaughn.

LOL. More washed up vets!!! I absolutely love how the Sox sign these guys a year or two after they are proven to be done, just because they can finally sign them for a pittance.