Paulie4Pres Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 19 hours ago, Sports Guy said: You had to take it. Too much potential and upside not to. It’s not a bad deal, it’s just not close to what most of you all said you wanted and would get. Why are you on a White Sox forum? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 43 minutes ago, flavum said: Sox win total will be in the 60’s. They’re bad, but they aren’t going to ge historically bad. There was no effort last year. The effort level, even with this team, should get them to 64 wins. I could absolutely see them dropping into the 50s. They are terrible on paper, they might have a lower OBP than last year's terrible OBP, and regardless of how "high character" some of these guys are supposed to be, I have no confidence in their coaching staff. But, it's baseball, random luck does things. The White Sox had fewer WAR and a worse run differential than the Royals last year, but finished ahead of the Royals by quite a bit, because the Royals last year dramatically underperformed. If they came out with 65 wins I wouldn't be surprised, if they came out with 55 wins I wouldn't be surprised, if they came out with 75 wins I might be impressed by the coaching staff and GM because I'd guess that took improvement from some of the young guys. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 2 hours ago, WestEddy said: Why are you using fWAR? I thought you said repeatedly that it heavily weights FIP. He picks the site to reference based on whichever best suits the narrative he’s pushing at that time. If the Q deal was reversed and the Sox traded Cease/Eloy for Q he’d still be bitching about it in 2024. That much I guarantee. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 1 hour ago, Chisoxfn said: I don't know why - no reason they couldn't get a chance post trade deadline to start to get experience. In particular Thorpe. I would think if Thorpe isn't up here at some point this season, something would have went wrong, given he finished the year in AA. I would suspect plan is for him to get 10-15 starts in AA before moving him up to AAA. One thing I will say about this trade - I put it as a C+ return, but I do think Getz is different than Hanh. I don't believe Hanh really trusted his scouts and development teams much on trades. I think he relied more on the perceived value of the trade and thus thought and cared more about how media would perceive a move. I think Getz targets guys he likes (regardless of rankings) and views them more isolated with his scouts. I happen to believe that is a positive - whether Getz and the crew are good at their jobs, that remains to be seen and I understand why any of us would be skeptical given how bad of a job the Sox have done consistently in that manner during the Rick Hanh era. It's hard to remember - there was a time where I actually would have said the Sox aren't half bad at that - but that goes back to when Kenny was flipping tables and super hands on. Even the Vietnamese version of Hanh can't be any worse than the real one... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 1 hour ago, Paulie4Pres said: Why are you on a White Sox forum? Shouldn't he betting big money on Holliday winning RoY somewhere or maybe genuflecting at the Enrique Bradfield Shrine? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Even the Vietnamese version of Hanh can't be any worse than the real one... What the hell? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 1 hour ago, TaylorStSox said: Absolutely, AAA is for refinement, not development. They're very different things. To say the Sox "developed" a lot of those players on that list is just absurd. I agree with the premise that Moncada and Eloy were nearly finished when they were acquired, but I don’t agree that they didn’t have improvements they needed to (and largely didn’t) make afterwards. And I can certainly see what you mean by making a distinction between what you’re calling “development” vs “refinement,” don’t you think those are both parts of the process that fall under the purview of player development? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 10 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said: I agree with the premise that Moncada and Eloy were nearly finished when they were acquired, but I don’t agree that they didn’t have improvements they needed to (and largely didn’t) make afterwards. And I can certainly see what you mean by making a distinction between what you’re calling “development” vs “refinement,” don’t you think those are both parts of the process that fall under the purview of player development? Eloy was in A+. I don’t think he qualifies for being fully cooked. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 36 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: What the hell? Heaven help me, I think I understood a Caulfield joke. He’s making a comment on the misspelling of Hahn as Hanh, which is more Vietnamese looking (as in Banh Mi). 1 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 7 hours ago, Quin said: Cause the guy in charge of developing players from the last rebuild is now running the entire show with a bunch of people taken from one of the franchises that is just as horrendous + Brian Bannister and Josh Barfield. All three are great until proven differently in my book. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 With each passing hour, the trade feels worse and worse to me. We really received nothing of note. That said, I think the Sox will win in the 70s, with the proviso that they won't dump their short-term pitching in July. If they do, and they should if they can, then low 60s again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 14 Share Posted March 14 1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said: What the hell? Did I need to highlight the SE Asian spelling of Hahn twice in that previous paragraph I was reacting to? Didn't think it was as challenging as Buehrle or Robert, Jr. Never mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFest23 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 On 11/18/2023 at 7:51 PM, SoxFest23 said: Not getting 2 top 100s, sorry. Not happening. Not happened. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 1 hour ago, Milkman delivers said: Heaven help me, I think I understood a Caulfield joke. He’s making a comment on the misspelling of Hahn as Hanh, which is more Vietnamese looking (as in Banh Mi). I send my deepest sympathies. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 2 hours ago, bmags said: Eloy was in A+. I don’t think he qualifies for being fully cooked. I don't either -- I think he was way more advanced than anyone else at that level, and probably 85% to where he needed to be to debut. And I think when he did debut, he was about 85% where he needed to be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 33 minutes ago, SoxFest23 said: Not happened. Pretty damn close 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 (edited) 6 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said: I don't want Eloy Jimenez anywhere near a field and haven't for three years. I want him DHing 140 games and hitting home runs. This was the mistake the Sox made IMHO. Not making him a DH immediately when he debuted. The dude couldn’t stay healthy in the minors with the Cubs before the Sox even acquired him. Now it’s not all the Sox fault. Eloy could probably suffer a season-ending injury getting up off of his couch and walking to the bathroom, but the Sox didn’t do a good job on minimizing his proneness for injury by continuing to throw him out in LF every chance they had, and refusing to stop doing it after each and every injury. Edited March 15 by WhiteSox2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 (edited) 11 hours ago, WestEddy said: What are you even talking about? Yes, Soroka had a very good season before his injury. So good that he finished 2nd in ROY voting. He put up 4.6 bWAR, so yes, you have seen that from him. Chris Flexen went to Korea, reinvented himself, then came back to put up 3.4 bWAR for Seattle in 2021. Maybe you just started following the baseball this year, so I apologize if you weren't aware of these two players' previous success. Data. The level of KBO baseball would slot in somewhere between AA and AAA. Fedde just won the equivalent of their MVP and Cy Young awards. No, that's nothing like the 1.5 bWAR he put up for the Nationals in 2020 shortened season, but it is success on the level of a guy blowing away AA and AAA hitters. You're using absolutes, like "haven't seen", "have done nothing", and "do not have any recent track record". So I can only surmise that, yes, you are arguing that it isn't possible that any of these three pitchers will ever find MLB success. You have proclaimed at numerous times they will be bad. Not "have the possibility of being bad", but that they will be bad. Historically bad. Again, you haven't addressed my argument except to incorrectly state that none of these three pitchers have had any recent MLB success, which is untrue. I understand your need to pretend that none of them have ever thrown a strike, or enjoyed a good outing in their lives. It would make your feeble argument unravel. Well, it would be like a mish mash of yarn that was never raveled in the first place. So, my assertion still stands as factually correct. Pitchers who have had recent success in MLB can come back from injury, or make adjustments to find success again. Flexen, Soroka and Fedde certainly fall into this category. I accept your apology. No apology was given. The one good Soroka season you are referencing was in 2019, FIVE freaking years ago! C’mon… Flexen had two good consecutive seasons in 2021 and 2022, but was moved to the bullpen in 2022 when the Mariners acquired Luis Castillo at the trade deadline. However, he owns a bad ERA, WHIP, and pedestrian K/9 in his career and he was pitching half of his games at one of the most pitcher friendly parks in all of baseball. Good luck at GRate, Chris. And finally, Fedde. During Fedde’s one good season you referenced with the Nationals in 2020 out of his six total career major league seasons to date, he threw just over 50 innings with 22 walks and only 28 strikeouts for a horrifyingly low 5.0 K/9. He had garbage peripherals and a metric $hit ton of luck that season. Further, you think the KBO is at the level right between AA and AAA. I don’t know if that’s true but there’s a ton of guys not good enough for the majors that can dominate at that level, so I don’t see how you can solely depend on that, along with 50 mediocre innings from 2020 for any future MLB expectations. I don’t consider any of these three players’ one or so “good” seasons that you mentioned to be a “recent track record of success” like you stated they are. A “track record of success” would mean more than one good season and the term “recent” is defined as “having happened not long ago,” not multiple years ago. Edited March 15 by WhiteSox2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejoesox Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 On 11/18/2023 at 7:51 PM, SoxFest23 said: Not getting 2 top 100s, sorry. Not happening. was close to 3 top 110's tho no? splitting hairs at which is the better value, I'd take the 3 players unless we are talking 2 top 50 guys, maybe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 (edited) 4 minutes ago, joejoesox said: was close to 3 top 110's tho no? splitting hairs at which is the better value, I'd take the 3 players unless we are talking 2 top 50 guys, maybe It just depends on what top 100 listing you buy into. It definitely doesn’t look as good if you only have faith in MLB.com’s list. Edited March 15 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 17 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: No apology was given. The one good Soroka season you are referencing was in 2019, FIVE freaking years ago! C’mon… Flexen had two good consecutive seasons in 2021 and 2022, but was moved to the bullpen in 2022 when the Mariners acquired Luis Castillo at the trade deadline. However, he owns a bad ERA, WHIP, and a pedestrian K/9 and he was pitching half his games at one of the most pitcher friendly parks in all of baseball. Good luck at GRate, Chris. And finally, Fedde. During Fedde’s one good season you referenced with the Nationals in 2020 out of his six total career major league seasons to date, he threw just over 50 innings with 22 walks and only 28 strikeouts for a horrifyingly low 5.0 K/9. He has garbage peripherals and a metric ton of luck. You think the KBO is at the level right between AA and AAA. I don’t know if that’s true but there’s a ton of guys not good enough for the majors that can dominate at that level, so I don’t see how you can depend on that for any future MLB expectations. I don’t consider any of these three players’ one or so “good” seasons that you mentioned to be a “recent track record of success” like you stated they are. A “track record of success” would be more than one good season and the term “recent” means “having happened not long ago,” not multiple years ago. It's ridiculous I have to spell this all for you. Soroka was a top 25 prospect in the game. Dude had pedigree. Great numbers coming up through the minors. The ROY-2 season. I don't care that you don't have the ability to understand that players come back from injuries. This whole site mourned the trade of Jake Burger who was written off for dead, and yet another success in the Jerry Reinsdorf failure machine. Jake Peavy came back and had a dominant year after a "career-ending" injury. Your loss. I'm not sure what you're doing here. Well, I recognize the "I'm really smart because I can echo all the negativity here" vibes. What's your end game? To turn me into a whiner zombie? To prove that there's no point in watching sports because everybody fails, so be bro-dude and go bankrupt on FanZone? I've already given you my outlook. I don't have to "prove" it to you. I don't care if you subscribe to it. I'm not going to stop anybody from the daily deluge of dour they vomit onto the intertubes. I don't even remember where this particular back and forth began. I'm interested in Getz's approach and will root for it. You can root for failure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 12 minutes ago, WestEddy said: It's ridiculous I have to spell this all for you. Soroka was a top 25 prospect in the game. Dude had pedigree. Great numbers coming up through the minors. The ROY-2 season. I don't care that you don't have the ability to understand that players come back from injuries. This whole site mourned the trade of Jake Burger who was written off for dead, and yet another success in the Jerry Reinsdorf failure machine. Jake Peavy came back and had a dominant year after a "career-ending" injury. Your loss. I'm not sure what you're doing here. Well, I recognize the "I'm really smart because I can echo all the negativity here" vibes. What's your end game? To turn me into a whiner zombie? To prove that there's no point in watching sports because everybody fails, so be bro-dude and go bankrupt on FanZone? I've already given you my outlook. I don't have to "prove" it to you. I don't care if you subscribe to it. I'm not going to stop anybody from the daily deluge of dour they vomit onto the intertubes. I don't even remember where this particular back and forth began. I'm interested in Getz's approach and will root for it. You can root for failure. Still don't think Melania cares about anything but staying 50 feet or more away from her husband... 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 22 minutes ago, WestEddy said: It's ridiculous I have to spell this all for you. Soroka was a top 25 prospect in the game. Dude had pedigree. Great numbers coming up through the minors. The ROY-2 season. I don't care that you don't have the ability to understand that players come back from injuries. This whole site mourned the trade of Jake Burger who was written off for dead, and yet another success in the Jerry Reinsdorf failure machine. Jake Peavy came back and had a dominant year after a "career-ending" injury. Your loss. I'm not sure what you're doing here. Well, I recognize the "I'm really smart because I can echo all the negativity here" vibes. What's your end game? To turn me into a whiner zombie? To prove that there's no point in watching sports because everybody fails, so be bro-dude and go bankrupt on FanZone? I've already given you my outlook. I don't have to "prove" it to you. I don't care if you subscribe to it. I'm not going to stop anybody from the daily deluge of dour they vomit onto the intertubes. I don't even remember where this particular back and forth began. I'm interested in Getz's approach and will root for it. You can root for failure. Any time someone disagrees with you, you get all defensive and turn it into that poster trying to convert you into a “negative whiner.” If you can’t handle people disagreeing with you without getting defensive and name calling, perhaps you should rethink posting your thoughts on a message board. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 3 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said: Any time someone disagrees with you, you get all defensive and turn it into that poster trying to convert you into a “negative whiner.” If you can’t handle people disagreeing with you without getting defensive and name calling, perhaps you should rethink posting your thoughts on a message board. You're not disagreeing. You're denying that any of these three pitchers have any business being on a baseball field. Oh, a guy pitched in Korea. That means he will fail miserably. That's childish. I get it. The negativity gets likes. I already see a therapist, I don't need your dime store palm-reading. If you need everybody you encounter to prove to you why they like "things", maybe you should be talking to a professional, too. Not everybody watches a baseball team because they need world championships to buck up their own self-image. Take your own advice. Why do you need to chase down and tackle people who want to be positive about this team? Do you think you're saving them from something? Do you think grown adults don't know that when watching a sports team, their own life's success isn't dictated by a bunch of dudes in tights throwing a ball around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 9 hours ago, Eminor3rd said: One article said that he was moved to relief more because they needed bullpen arms than because he couldn’t start, and another said that he’s missed a lot of development time to injuries and pandemic, so he may have more command upside than his age would indicate Interesting… thanks… would have loved hearing Getz mention something about that. Totally a Banny guy though that was clear from the word “sweeper”. 😆 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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