Leaderboard

I came here to read about the exciting concept of the White Sox adding Semien's 40 home run power and plus defense to a team that is already stacked...and of course it is nothing but the constant idiotic narrative of the White Sox being a cheap team...I know I have written it a hundred times...but the 00's, 90's and 80's when they had good teams they were a top five payroll...some one wrote in another thread about the 2005 team only being 15th in payroll...or some such nonsense...no one expected the 2005 team to be great...attendance wasn't great initially...but then they won, fans came out in droves and the next year they were 4th in payroll and again in 2007 and 5th in 2008. Yes they have also always been cheap when the team is bad...as a businessman this makes perfect sense to me. A top five payroll in 2021 would have been $190 million. The likely increase in attendance pays for that (Sox fans have proven over the years they will come out for a winner). So given their current commitments they can EASILY afford Semien. So adding him and letting Vaughn play right field...your worst hitter is probably lefty Sheets at DH who put up an .800+ OPS as a rookie. That team will score 9 runs a game.

Sox: Hey Marcus, Hey Scott. Marcus: Hey Sox Scott: Hey Sox. Thanks for the Rodon solid. Sox: Nice talking to you fellas. Have a good one. This is about as far as those talks will probably go.

I would hope that they have far more than a 2 year window. 4 good years after 7 years of a dog-and-pony show is no good leverage. Capable front offices contend for far more than 4 years. This "all in" stuff is not something adept front offices do in order to contend.

Yeah, Rick Hahn is conducting fake negotiations in hopes of Soxtalk posters like myself citing it years later as proof they aren’t cheap ???

They could get enough positive press that people would defend them years later using it as an example.

Are we talking about the same offense that mustered 6 runs in 3 losses vs the Astros in the ALDS? Because that offense fell on its face pretty hard.

To all my fellow vets, welcome home and thanks for your service.

Of highest contracts ever given out, the Sox only rank ahead of the: Pirates Rays Indians Athletics The Sox ranked 15th in payroll in a year they, themselves, called all-in. I wonder where they get that cheap moniker. They "set the market" at positions and levels that aren't actually bank breaking. There's a difference between setting the market on a house in a cheap neighborhood by buying the most expensive house, than there is setting the market in a desirable and wealthy neighborhood by buying the most expensive house.

It's odd, multiple people, including myself have asked for your specific offseason plan since you've been heavily critical of basically everything....yet you haven't responded with specifics.

Boras whenever RH makes an “offer”.

How much positive press did they get out of it? How much have the Sox gained? This isn't theoretical. It happened. Seems pretty risky offering someone $125 million and banking on his wife wanting to live in Philadelphia. To think the Sox didn't want Wheeler in a bad way is pretty crazy. In the end, all that matters is if they signed him or didn't sign him. No one except maybe JR's lackeys care about the effort.

I don't see what they would have gained with that. Trying is for school, and Little League. In the real world, people look at results.

Not sarcasm at all. I think they knew they could look like they were "really trying" to get Wheeler.

As evidenced by the last couple of years, the Sox will set a market for people they view as "their guy". They did it with Hendriks and they did it with Grandal.

First, I'm not advocating doing nothing to help the offense at all. The question was whether, after adding an MVP candidate to our offense, the very next priority should be to add yet *more* offense/position players. I think not. Also, while the top of the order actually hit pretty well there's no doubt the Sox didn't perform well in any aspect of the game in the series. Of course, there's a small sample size issue with any examination of a single series, but I simply have more trust that the talent in our lineup will bounce back from that SSS than I do in our depleted rotation standing up to a playoff offense. Lynn's whole approach is a poor fit for the Astros, and I don't think we can count on him against a likely playoff opponent, especially a year older. Carlos is gone. There are noticeable gaps in our rotation that need to be addressed.

Sox should engage with Ray also just to make sure Toronto doesn't get either of them cheaply.

If he has a deal worth more than $20 million, yes.

Then throw in the Sox potentially losing a pick if they do in fact sign a QO guy such as Conforto. A bad farm with one less pick seems like recipe for drying up the length of the competitive window.

Avi in CF >>> Burger at 2B

I don't get it. Why do they get credit for setting the market there, I thought that phrase means they gave highest contract to the position.

Yeah, but you're not hearing about the % from a teams mouthpiece about how they offered more. Sometimes the Sox act like their doing the players a favor when they offer big money, and not that the player earned this money. Machado and Wheeler. I'm not insinuating it was a fake offer, btw. They offered it, they thought they'd get him and they didn't. They've still yet to sign someone over 100 million in the history of their organization (matched by only teams like the Pirates and Rays) and every season there are multiple Sox fans here linking the Sox to 30AAV+ guys and guys that would shatter the Sox largest contract; as if the Sox are the favorite or make sense. The Sox will never be a favorite for the marquee FA's on the market until they actually sign one for once.

I don't really care about budget, it's "not my money"... but Semien would be the best upgrade at 2B and Marte to me would be the best upgrade to RF. Let Vaughn/Sheets alternate at DH and spell Eloy in LF. I would think you could get both of those guys for $35/year - Marte on a 2/3 year and Semien likely will take 5. Heck, give Semien an opt out after 1 and 2 years. If he's playing so well to want to opt out then whatever we paid him will have been worth it.

Do you think the Sox are the only ones who use the media to their advantage? That's a pretty regular occurance.

I’m sure he’s always laughing no matter what. Whether it’s a stupid offer or an over pay for one of his clients.

I'm sure they wanted him, and they wanted Machado, but they didn't close either. East Coast preference for the wife, nothing they could do. Although Machado was a bit weird. The, 'we had the best offer out there, but we can't match what he signed for" line was, is, and always will be bunk.

I’m hoping this is sarcasm because they 100% made the offer with hopes of him accepting it

I'm not convinced that they weren't 100% certain that he would never go to Chicago before they made that offer.

Yes, the Sox will set the market in markets that have caps that are well under the amount of money Robbie Ray and Marcus Semien are going to get. If you play a position that doesn't get 9 figure contracts the Sox are all-in on setting the market for you.

I just don't see him getting away from Toronto.

Makes sense. Out of all the top middle infield talent out there, he’s one of the older ones at 31 so he won’t require a massive contract like Seager or Correa would.

Just bumping this so we have no fewer than five "offseason threads" at the top of the front page

Reward teams who are actually putting a quality team and entertaining fans. End "Small Market" Subsidies / Revenue Redistribution Draft lottery, one ball per win. League-wide revenue sharing, replace 1/30 with % of league wins. The current system rewards teams which suck, teams who do not spend, teams who merely exist as a Congressionally protected entitled welfare recipient and add nothing to MLB or society. Win 60 games, get the bottom picks, get the least amount of league revenue, do better, suck ass for eternity or fold your team like any other free market business. You shouldn't get an advantage for sucking so bad you draw seven thousand fans a game, yet profit more than most or all other teams by cashing your welfare checks and fielding 100 loss teams with 26 AAA/AAAA types.

This exactly. Dude is going to paint anything as a win, even if it wasn't. Its quite literally his job.

Another free agent that got better when he signed with the Sox was McCann, but I am sure that doesn’t count either because reasons

Yoan had a good year w the bat but you need to add an asterisk to that. Grandal only played 90 games which is about 3/4 of a season. That is coming off a short season in 2020. Yoan has traditionally been a guy who struggles 2nd half of seasons probably because he averages 125ish games . So hopefully the lesson is the Sox need to rest him on a regular basis so he doesn't break down late. That doesn't mean playing him at 1B or DH because he pretty much struggles offensively in other positions, which is weird.

The Sox signed Grandal 10 days after the World Series ended. Tomorrow would be 10 days from this year’s World Series ending. Could the Sox land a free agent in the next week or so? With the CBA expiring Dec 1st you got to think some guys will push for deals ASAP and Hahn basically stated the Sox like to be aggressive in free agency. Not sure how Boras plays into all this, but if Conforto is truly a top target (like he should be) perhaps we find a way to get a deal done soon. It would be amazing to get one need addressed before what will almost certainly be a long negotiating period.

horror.

It's easy for Boras to say he wouldn't have taken the QO now. To me it's simple, if he is healthy or can at least convince someone he is healthy, not offering it was dumb, but I don't think it was so cut and dried he wouldn't have taken it, and if he is healthy, he's worth it. If not, you were burned.

Wow it's almost like I said "if Rodons arm fell off next year" as my qualifier and you changed it. Because clearly Hahn would be wrong in the scenario that you now believe is likely, regardless of what you said 10 months ago

Even if the rest of the league disagrees and then the player stays healthy and has success elsewhere Hahn cannot be wrong? Well, ok.

I sincerely love that every year a bunch of baseball writers convince their bosses to pay for them to go to a resort to cover the GM meetings where the GMs say nothing of substance so they al end up needing to writeup Scott Boras giving long winded analogies comparing the baseball market to the spice trade

Obvious result was obvious.

Exactly which is why the Sox should've offered Rodon the QO and taken the draft pick when he refused it.

He's absolutely right about what the problem is here (as I said in my post above I didn't read his full comments in proper context until after I posted that tweet, which is a poor summary) I miss the old Deadspin, they were all over how full of shit MLB management is

We shall see.

The more I watch the game evolve the less I think OF defense matters, especially when you have someone like Robert in CF. Go for the big crooked numbers for 7 innings and put Engel in for the rookies to close it out. So I guess today I’m leaning towards spending the money on pitching and power at 2B

I still favor a pairing of Vaughn & Sheets for RF...use what we already have. The money can be used at 2nd, backup catcher, and strengthen pitching.

LOL, "Playoff appearances" are NOT the standard, playoff performance and fielding a competitive playoff team is the standard. The stated window for Hahn and any plan seeking accountability is "Championship Window", not winning an AL Central over four tanking teams or a Wild Card birth while legitimate micro small market teams Cleveland and Minnesota were actually trying. Fielding competitive teams that can compete in October is the goal. If they were like the Giants or other teams and played a competitive full series losing in a heartbreaking final game 5/7, than yes, they at least can say they fielded a competitive team with a possible chance at advancing and competing for a WS. The Sox were the least competitive team across all 2021 playoff DS/CS/WS teams. This was not a "crapshoot", this was a complete and utter domination by Dusty Baker and the Houston Astros. In terms of playoffs and "salary inflation", the Sox were 13th in 2005, and finished 12th in 2021 (CBA tax / full season tracking), with likely Top 10 payrolls planned until fans grow wise to Jerry's latest carrot scheme. Kenny Williams picked up several players who were key contributors to THREE playoff series wins (three more than Hahn plus Tony combined over nearly two combined decades of White Sox baseball), and an 11-1 (.917) playoff record in 2005, 12-4 (.750) overall. Meanwhile Tony La Russa, (2-6 .250 lifetime in eight + years with White Sox - the only record I and other Sox fans should give a rats ass about) and Hahn 2-5 (.286) were completely owned and nowhere close to fielding a competitive playoff team, despite three months of rest, Tony's "playoff switch" and "HOF schematic advantage", silly gamesmanship and unwritten rules obsession. Kenny Williams spread the payroll across dozens of successful bets. Hahn was all in on a few old Free Agents, going well over any other reported bid, and failed miserably. What Playoff "juice" did North Shore Cubby Boi Rick Hahn "squeeze" after $120M + spent during the past two seasons under their "World Championship Window"? $36.5M Keuchel 3 1/3 IP, 8.10 ERA, Banned from 2021 playoff roster, team and fans hope he does not return or does not vest next year. $36.6M Grandal Kudos he hit outstanding, Hahn's one shinning moment, though he calls shitty games, cannot catch breaking balls, had a Playoff CERA of 1-5 6.84 (McCann 1-0 1.00). $36.5M to go, two knee surgeries and counting. $13.0M Encarnacion OPS 0.000 Completely worthless from Day One. $11.3M Hendriks 9.00 ERA, Meaningless playoff appearances (9.00 ERA), but he should pan out OK the rest of the three seasons, not $18M + like the other three. Hahn's other decent signing. $9.5M Lynn 3 2/3 IP, 12.27 ERA. Hahn needlessly committed another $39.0M midseason and he petered out since then, with a likely knee surgery on deck and regression to follow. $8.0M Eaton DFA in July, worthless as most fans projected upon his signing announcement. Hahn thought this was wise. (Narrator "It was not.") $5.0M Kimbrel Completely worthless, Hahn doubled down and threw $16.0M more onto the fire in an attempt to salvage something, anything, for this complete disaster. In terms of "false narratives", Hahn has spent the past week claiming the Sox did not win their "ultimate goal" of winning the final postseason game. This is completely disingenuous. They fell far, far short of getting to that point, falling three rounds short and not even close to fielding a competitive playoff team this year, or his previous eight seasons. They regressed from Ricky Renteria performed in 2020, despite the fact they significantly bumped payroll. They are payroll top heavy and entering a third season with limited flexibility to properly fill RF (Hahn fielded 16 "solutions" the past two seasons) and 2B (Mendick and Romy are the current #1 and #2 options), and no signs they can afford substantial upgrades after going all in on Keuchel, Grandal, Kimbrel and Lynn's extension. Yes the money has been spent. Sadly it was spent by Rick Hahn. Kenny Williams didn't have a losing record as GM, didn't need to pawn off everything inherited by the previous GM plus four additional years to make the playoffs. Kenny Williams finished with a World Series after four seasons. Hahn began tanking after four seasons, pawning off anything he inherited off of Kenny Williams to buy five more years without a single playoff advancing team before or after. Kenny Williams was the only successful GM in a century of White Sox baseball. His only fault was keeping Hahn around for a decade, and he likely had no say in the matter. Kenny was sadly screwed by Jerry out of a promotion to become Toronto's President (Kenny still is third in command behind Jerry and Howard Pizer). He and his players deserved a better fate than be saddled with Jerry, Hahn and La Russa during his career.

This is what you get when all the teams are owned by rich white men. You also get black QB's consistently hit much later than white QB's without penalty flags.

I once again find it funny that we just finished the season saying “we are too redundant, too full of right handed corner players that hit too many ground balls “ and then two weeks later people are like “we should sign Avi”.